Sunday, September 29, 2019

Every single vitakka reference in DN (20+ hits), linked to passage and sutta

DN (at least 20 of 34 suttas)
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Every single vitakka reference in SN (128 hits), linked to passage and sutta


SN (128 sutta hits)

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Friday, September 27, 2019

SN 1.64 vitakka and vicara of first jhana is doing this

Though not explicitly stating 'jhana' in this particular passage (other verses from sutta passages do),
the fact that one is removing fetters, reflecting on the cause of dukkha and fetters, makes it clear this is the province of first jhana, as the result is nirvana.

It's laughable that anyone could think first jhana vitakka and vicara has a 'secret' meaning of 'placing and keeping it connected' [to a secret visual samadhi nimitta that the EBT suttas don't mention].

SN 1.64


64. Saṃyojanasutta
64. Fetter
“Kiṃsu saṃyojano loko,
“What fetters the world?
kiṃsu tassa vicāraṇaṃ;
What explores it?
Kissassu vippahānena,
With the giving up of what
nibbānaṃ iti vuccatī”ti.
is nirvana spoken of?”
“Nandīsaṃyojano loko,
“Delight fetters the world.
vitakkassa vicāraṇaṃ;
Thought explores it.
Taṇhāya vippahānena,
With the giving up of craving
nibbānaṃ iti vuccatī”ti.
nirvana is spoken of.”
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Wednesday, September 25, 2019

Ajahn Brahm and the time machine: DN 21 B. Sujato's erroneous translation of vitakka & vicara explained.


V&V💭: vitakka & vicāra

Vitakka 💭 = directed thought.
Vicāra 🕵️ = the evaluation of that very same directed thought, not a separate train of thought.
V&V isn't a wild excursion of jumping from one random thought to another random, disconnected thought.
Vicāra explores, inspects, discriminates, evaluates, ponders, scrutinizes, discerns, considers the very same thought initially fixed upon by vitakka.
Vitakka decides on a topic, then gives it to vicara to analyze it further.

⛔ Wrong translations for V&V💭

✅ ☸EBT V&V💭: vitakka & vicāra = directed-thought & evaluation
⛔ Vism. Redefinition V&V💭: applied-thought & sustained-thought (b.nanamoli)
⛔ Vism. Redefinition V&V💭: initial-application & sustained-application (u thittila)
⛔ B.Sujato mistranslation of V&V💭: placing-the-mind & keeping-it-connected
⛔ B.Anālayo mistranslation of V&V💭: [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation

DN 21 B. Sujato pali + english

Here is my version of DN 21 based off B. Sujato, but corrected for V&V.

 source of desire

“Chando pana, mārisa, kiṃnidāno kiṃsamudayo kiṃjātiko kiṃpabhavo;
“But what is the source of desire?”
kismiṃ sati chando hoti;
kismiṃ asati chando na hotī”ti?
“Chando kho, devānaminda, vitakkanidāno vitakkasamudayo vitakkajātiko vitakkapabhavo;
“Thought is the source of desire.”
vitakke sati chando hoti;
vitakke asati chando na hotī”ti.

source of thought

“vitakko pana, mārisa, kiṃnidāno kiṃsamudayo kiṃjātiko kiṃpabhavo;
“But what is the source of thought?”
kismiṃ sati vitakko hoti;
kismiṃ asati vitakko na hotī”ti?
“vitakko kho, devānaminda, papañcasaññāsaṅkhānidāno papañcasaññāsaṅkhāsamudayo papañcasaññāsaṅkhājātiko papañcasaññāsaṅkhāpabhavo;
“Concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions are the source of thoughts.”
papañcasaññāsaṅkhāya sati vitakko hoti;
papañcasaññāsaṅkhāya asati vitakko na hotī”ti.

 two kind of somanassa/happiness

…
…
Somanassampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?
Why did I say that there are two kinds of happiness?
Tattha yaṃ jaññā somanassaṃ
Take a happiness of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me somanassaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhanti, kusalā dhammā parihāyantī’ti, evarūpaṃ somanassaṃ na sevitabbaṃ.
‘When I cultivate this kind of happiness, unskillful qualities grow, and skillful qualities decline.’ You should not cultivate that kind of happiness.
Tattha yaṃ jaññā somanassaṃ
Take a happiness of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me somanassaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā parihāyanti, kusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhantī’ti, evarūpaṃ somanassaṃ sevitabbaṃ.
‘When I cultivate this kind of happiness, unskillful qualities decline, and skillful qualities grow.’ You should cultivate that kind of happiness.
Tattha yañce savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ, yañce avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ, ye avitakke avicāre, te paṇītatare.
And that which is free of directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts is better than that which still involves directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts.
Somanassampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti.
That’s why I said there are two kinds of happiness.
Iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ, idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.

two kinds of domanassa/sadness

Domanassampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?
Why did I say that there are two kinds of sadness?
Tattha yaṃ jaññā domanassaṃ
Take a sadness of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me domanassaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhanti, kusalā dhammā parihāyantī’ti, evarūpaṃ domanassaṃ na sevitabbaṃ.
‘When I cultivate this kind of sadness, unskillful qualities grow, and skillful qualities decline.’ You should not cultivate that kind of sadness.
Tattha yaṃ jaññā domanassaṃ
Take a sadness of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me domanassaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā parihāyanti, kusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhantī’ti, evarūpaṃ domanassaṃ sevitabbaṃ.
‘When I cultivate this kind of sadness, unskillful qualities decline, and skillful qualities grow.’ You should cultivate that kind of sadness.
Tattha yañce savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ, yañce avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ, ye avitakke avicāre, te paṇītatare.
And that which is free of directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts is better than that which still involves directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts.
Domanassampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti
That’s why I said there are two kinds of sadness.
iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ, idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.

DN 21 two kinds of upekkha/equanimity

Upekkhampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?
Why did I say that there are two kinds of equanimity?
Tattha yaṃ jaññā upekkhaṃ
Take an equanimity of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me upekkhaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhanti, kusalā dhammā parihāyantī’ti, evarūpā upekkhā na sevitabbā.
‘When I cultivate this kind of equanimity, unskillful qualities grow, and skillful qualities decline.’ You should not cultivate that kind of equanimity.
Tattha yaṃ jaññā upekkhaṃ
Take an equanimity of which you know:
‘imaṃ kho me upekkhaṃ sevato akusalā dhammā parihāyanti, kusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhantī’ti, evarūpā upekkhā sevitabbā.
‘When I cultivate this kind of equanimity, unskillful qualities decline, and skillful qualities grow.’ You should cultivate that kind of equanimity.
Tattha yañce savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ, yañce avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ, ye avitakke avicāre, te paṇītatare.
And that which is free of directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts is better than that which still involves directing-thought and evalulating-said-thoughts.
Upekkhampāhaṃ, devānaminda, duvidhena vadāmi sevitabbampi, asevitabbampīti
That’s why I said there are two kinds of equanimity.

Where does B. Sujato go wrong?

Even though there's no mention of four jhanas in that section of the sutta, B. Sujato correctly recognizes that the vitakka and vicara is referring to a jhana context. That is why he uses his translation of "placing the mind and keeping it connected", instead of his "thinking and considering" for contexts outside of four jhanas.

How do we know this is jhana context?
Somanassa, Domanassa, upekkha, are 3 of the 5 vedana-indriya scheme from SN 48.37 . 

 How do we know B. Sujato is wrong?
1. If you read his translation of that passage, it's incoherent. It sounds like it's saying being a dead person or comatose person is much preferable to being alive, because only then would you not be "placing the mind and keeping it connected." 

Ajahn Brahm and the time machine

For that Jhana instruction to work, you would need Ajahn Brahm and B. Sujato to go in a time machine, and go back to the Buddha's time and explain to each monk as they hear that instruction, "placing the mind and keeping it connected means the same thing as the VRJ (visuddhimagga redefinition of jhana) that doesn't happen for at least another 1000 years, so we're here to enlighten you and point out the Buddha wasn't being clear and and a special definition for vitakka only in first jhana."

 Image result for time machine back to the futureImage result for time machine back to the future

how else do we know B. Sujato is wrong?

The rest of that passage in DN 21 ends with this:
Evaṃ paṭipanno kho, devānaminda, bhikkhu papañcasaññāsaṅkhānirodhasāruppagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ paṭipanno hotī”ti.
That’s how a mendicant appropriately practices for the cessation of concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions.”
Itthaṃ bhagavā sakkassa devānamindassa pañhaṃ puṭṭho byākāsi.
Such was the Buddha’s answer to Sakka.
Attamano sakko devānamindo bhagavato bhāsitaṃ abhinandi anumodi:
Delighted, Sakka approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, saying:
“evametaṃ, bhagavā, evametaṃ, sugata.
“That’s so true, Blessed One! That’s so true, Holy One!
Tiṇṇā mettha kaṅkhā vigatā kathaṅkathā bhagavato pañhaveyyākaraṇaṃ sutvā”ti.
Hearing the Buddha’s answer, I’ve gone beyond doubt and got rid of indecision.”

As well as the section right before the 'somanassa' section, the 'source of thought' is the sanna/perceptions of desire. 

 So when we're talking about perceptions, thoughts, and proliferation, there's a clear hierarchy, as explained in

 MN 18:


For vitakka to be the imaginary "placing the mind" that B. sujato proposes, it can't be the same vitakka as the one sandwiched between perceptions/sanna and papanca/proliferation. It would need to be a lower level mental activity preceding perception/sanna.



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Tuesday, September 24, 2019

lucid24.org MN decontaminated, and every vitakka reference in MN audited

Image result for decontamination

2 announcements.

1. http://lucid24.org/mn/index.html the complete MN majjhima nikaya english sutta translations, based off of B. Sujato's translations form suttacentral, have completely expunged his erroneous vitakka and jhana formula translations. Let me know if I missed any.

2. I've looked at every single vitakka usage in the pali suttas over the years. Audited
every.
single.
last.
one of them.

But now I'm documenting it and organizing the audit so everything is easy to see for yourself, impossible to ignore the evidence when it's a simple hyperlink click away. I've just completed MN.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2019/09/every-vitakka-in-suttas.html




every single vitakka reference in pali & english, in MN

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:58 am
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ttas.html

65 suttas out of 152 in MN majjihima nikaya reference vitakka.
The table of contents here, but you'll want to read it from the blog article since they all hyperlink to the relevant excerpt, and also contain links to the full sutta.

You're welcome.

And a personal message to Jhana vitakka heretics: I'm going through all the pali suttas, not just MN, until every single reference to vitakka is audited. Vitakka heretics will have nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, no alibi, no excuses. Documented audits will be a single hyperlink click away. You are going down. Down like the hindenberg. The longer you take to repent and admit error, the worse it's going to be. So rip off the bandaid now. You're going to take a hit to your reputation and pride, but it's going to be far worse, exponentially worse the longer you wait.


MN 2 right effort removing asava
MN 4 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 5 thought (pari-vitakka) about carpentry entered his mind (cetaso)
MN 8 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 10 (and DN 22) satipatthana suttas
MN 13 1st and 2nd jhana, and 4 jhanas are gratification of feelings/vedana
MN 18 consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate
MN 19 explicit explanation of how vitakka changes outside and inside first jhana
MN 20 five methods to remove thoughts
MN 21 giving up thoughts and desires connected to lay life
MN 22 not possible to perform sensual acts without sensual thoughts,
MN 23 thinking all day and night about practice
MN 25 1st and 2nd jhana where mara can not see
MN 26 brahma reads buddha’s mind, 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 27 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 30 1st and 2nd jhana better than knowledge and vision
MN 31 1st and 2nd jhana, superhuman
MN 33 right effort removing 3 wrong thoughts
MN 36 1st and 2nd jhana, and buddha boy 1st jhana
MN 38 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 39 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv, jhana similes
MN 43 sariputta invents 5 factors of first jhana
MN 44 as vaca co-doings, and passion obsessions
MN 45 1st and 2nd jhana, pleasure now and rebirth
MN 49 buddha reading brahma’s mind
MN 51 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 52 nirvana WHILE doing 1st and 2nd jhana
MN 53 1st and 2nd jhana, how to get it
MN 58 Buddha use premeditated answers or think on the spot?
MN 59 1st jhana better sukha than 5kg, 2nd jhana even better
MN 60 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 63 thought interrupt meditation
MN 64 get nirvana while in jhana, and 5 lower fetters
MN 65 1st and 2nd jhana, superhuman
MN 66 thought interrupted meditation, 1st and 2nd jhana perturbable
MN 67 brahma reads buddha’s mind
MN 76 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 77 1st and 2nd jhana, similes
MN 78 akusala thoughts cease in 1st jhana, kusala thoughts cease in 2nd jhana
MN 79 four jhanas are path for perfect sukha, but not perfect sukha itself
MN 85 same 2 uses as MN 36, also brahma mind reading buddha
MN 94 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 95 buddha reads mind, reasoned thinking
MN 99 1st and 2nd jhana, piti of 7sb same as piti of 4 jhanas
MN 100 same as MN 36 buddha boy 1st jhana
MN 101 1st and 2nd jhana, and reasoned thinking
MN 102 reasoned thinking
MN 105 conversation, thinking & evaluation
MN 107 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 108 1st and 2nd jhana, and wrong jhanas
MN 109 thinking while listening to Buddha, Buddha mind reading
MN 111 sariputta examining vitakka WHILE in first and 2nd jhana
MN 112 1st and 2nd jhana, 5niv
MN 113 1st and 2nd jhana, bad person proud of jhana
MN 117 as part of right resolve definition
MN 119 1st and 2nd jhana, and similes, jhana = satipatthana
MN 122 mind inclines toward 3 right and 3 wrong thoughts
MN 123 like MN 18 vitakka in hierarchy after vedana and sañña
MN 124 in 80 years as monk Bakkula never had 3 wrong thoughts
MN 125 explicitly omits 1st jhana because ‘thinking’ is active
MN 128 3 ways of samadhi, with & without vitakka...
MN 138 1st and 2nd jhana, internally stuck
MN 139 1st and 2nd jhana, should not be feared
MN 141 1st and 2nd jhana, as samma samadhi definition
MN 147 thought pops in buddha’s mind as he meditates

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Saturday, September 21, 2019

differentiating pīti and sukha in 4 jhānas, corrupted by Vism.

It's a great simile, and very accurate. Here's how Vism. and late Theravada Abhidhamma corrupt it to mean something entirely different than a straightforward EBT (early buddhist text) interpretation. Actually, vism. is ambiguous exactly when sukha occurs, but in atthasalini they definitely say sukha is AFTER the drinking and immersion in water is when sukha takes place, killing physical sukha and turning it purely into a mental factor. The standard jhana formula similes, AN 5.28, sukha would be physical pleasure, explicitly confirmed by AN 5.28 commentary as well, older than the Atthasalini, and which Vism. goes out of their way to avoid even mentioning AN 5.28 similes and that commentary.





Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:26 am
Visuddhimagga, chapter IV, The First Jhāna, Ñāṇamoli translation wrote:And wherever the two are associated, happiness is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss is the actual experiencing of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss (pleasure); but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness. Happiness is included in the formations aggregate; bliss is included in the feeling aggregate. If a man, exhausted in a desert, saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss. And it should be understood that this is said because they are obvious on such occasions.
Atthasālinī, Part IV, I. Of the Summary of Conscious States, Maung Tin translation wrote:Rapture is like a weary traveler in the desert in summer, who hears of, or sees water or a shady wood. Ease is like his enjoying the water or entering the forest shade. For a man who, traveling along the path through a great desert and overcome by the heat is thirsty and desirous of drink, if he saw a man on the way, would ask, "Where is water?" The other would say, "Beyond the wood is a dense forest with a natural lake. Go there, and you will get some." He hearing these words would be glad and delighted. Going onwards, be would see men with wet clothes and hair, hear the sound of wild fowl and pea-fowl, etc., see the dense forest of green like a net of jewels by the edge of the natural lake, he would see the water lily, the lotus, the white lily, etc., growing in the lake, he would see the clear transparent water, he would be all the more glad and delighted, would descend into the natural lake, bathe and drink at pleasure and, his oppression being allayed, he would eat the fibers and stalks of the lilies, adorn himself with the blue lotus, carry on his shoulders the roots of the mandalaka, ascend from the lake, put on his clothes, dry the bathing cloth in the sun, and in the cool shade where the breeze blew ever so gently lay himself down and say: "O bliss! O bliss!" Thus should this illustration be applied: — The time of gladness and delight from when he heard of the natural lake and the dense forest till he saw the water is like piti having the manner of gladness and delight at the object in view. The time when, after his bath and drink be laid himself down in the cool shade, saying, "O bliss! O bliss!" etc., is the sense of sukha grown strong, established in that mode of enjoying the taste of the object.


elsewhere in the thread:
by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:45 am

The Visuddhimagga (PoP. ch. IV. 100; also Dhs-a. 117):
Kantārakhinnassa vanantudakadassanasavanesu viya pīti. Vanacchāyāpavesanaudakaparibhogesu viya sukhaṃ.

Pīti is like when a man exhausted in a desert sees or hears about a pond on the edge of a wood. Sukha is like the man's going into the shade of the wood and using the water.

dhs-a is Atthasālinī, a commentary on Dhammasangani (one of the 7 abhdihamma books)

• Pīti is never referred to as a vedanā in any Pali text whatever.

• In the Suttanta Piṭaka pīti is never really defined, except by a list of ten synonyms (i.e., pāmojjaṃ, modanā, āmodanā, pamodanā, hāso, pahāso, vitti, tuṭṭhi, odagyaṃ and attamanatā cittassa), given in the Niddesa and Paṭisambhidāmagga.

• The classification of pīti as an item in saṅkhārakkhandha doesn't originate with the commentaries but goes back to the Abhidhamma Piṭaka's Dhammasaṅgaṇī and Vibhaṅga.

• That the second ānāpānassati tetrad corresponds to vedanānupassanā doesn't oblige us to conclude that the pītipaṭisaṃvedī in this tetrad is a vedanā, for the tetrad also includes cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī. Cittasaṅkhārā includes saññā, which is certainly not a vedanā.


Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:27 am
pleasure (of the citta),
that part in parenthesis is your own interpolation.
It's clearly sukha vedana, and sukha vedana originates from the physical, discussed in detail in many suttas of vedana samyutta SN 36.
Just as the dart sutta says, first one feels a physical pleasure sukha, then multiple darts of mental sukha follows.
The EBT jedi went out of their way to point out the physicality of sukha.
Look at SN 36.11, it's also in the vedana samyutta, and look at how passaddhi is treated. Unlike the 'vupasama' and 'nirodha' repetitions for the 9 gradual samadhi, the passadhi is only numbered 6! They deliberately withheld the arupa samadhis, to emphasize kāya and sukha vedana for the four jhanas and 7 awakening factors, are physical FIRST and foremost. mental sukha may follow dependent on that.

ToVincent wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:44 am
frank k wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:37 am
... kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).
Really! ?!?!

This is the usual extract:

Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

With the pleasure (of the mano), the body becomes tranquil.
One tranquil in body experiences pleasure (of the citta).
A sukhino citta becomes established.
In a citta that is established (定), phenomena become manifest.
.
.


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