SN 16.5 Enlightened Arahant Maha Kassapa keeping strict rules to set a good example for future generations

SN 16.5  Enlightened Arahant Maha Kassapa keeping strict rules to set a good example for future generations

5. Jiṇṇasutta	5. Old Age
Evaṃ me sutaṃ …	So I have heard.
rājagahe veḷuvane.	Near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove.
Atha kho āyasmā mahākassapo yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinnaṃ kho āyasmantaṃ mahākassapaṃ bhagavā etadavoca:	Then Venerable Mahākassapa went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:
“jiṇṇosi dāni tvaṃ, kassapa, garukāni ca te imāni sāṇāni paṃsukūlāni nibbasanāni.	“You’re old now, Kassapa. Those worn-out hempen rag robes must be a burden for you.
Tasmātiha tvaṃ, kassapa, gahapatāni ceva cīvarāni dhārehi, nimantanāni ca bhuñjāhi, mama ca santike viharāhī”ti.	So Kassapa, you should wear clothes given by householders, accept invitations for the meal, and stay in my presence.”
“Ahaṃ kho, bhante, dīgharattaṃ āraññiko ceva āraññikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, piṇḍapātiko ceva piṇḍapātikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, paṃsukūliko ceva paṃsukūlikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, tecīvariko ceva tecīvarikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, appiccho ceva appicchatāya ca vaṇṇavādī, santuṭṭho ceva santuṭṭhiyā ca vaṇṇavādī, pavivitto ceva pavivekassa ca vaṇṇavādī, asaṃsaṭṭho ceva asaṃsaggassa ca vaṇṇavādī, āraddhavīriyo ceva vīriyārambhassa ca vaṇṇavādī”ti.	“For a long time, sir, I’ve lived in the wilderness, eaten only alms-food, worn rag robes, and owned just three robes; and I’ve praised these things. I’ve been one of few wishes, content, secluded, aloof, and energetic; and I’ve praised these things.”
“Kiṃ pana tvaṃ, kassapa, atthavasaṃ sampassamāno dīgharattaṃ āraññiko ceva āraññikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, piṇḍapātiko ceva … pe …	“But seeing what benefit, Kassapa, have you long practiced these things?”
paṃsukūliko ceva …
tecīvariko ceva …
appiccho ceva …
santuṭṭho ceva …
pavivitto ceva …
asaṃsaṭṭho ceva …
āraddhavīriyo ceva vīriyārambhassa ca vaṇṇavādī”ti?
“Dve khvāhaṃ, bhante, atthavase sampassamāno dīgharattaṃ āraññiko ceva āraññikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, piṇḍapātiko ceva … pe …	“Sir, seeing two benefits I have long practiced these things.
paṃsukūliko ceva …
tecīvariko ceva …
appiccho ceva …
santuṭṭho ceva …
pavivitto ceva …
asaṃsaṭṭho ceva …
āraddhavīriyo ceva vīriyārambhassa ca vaṇṇavādī.
Attano ca diṭṭhadhammasukhavihāraṃ sampassamāno, pacchimañca janataṃ anukampamāno:	I see a happy life for myself in the present. And I have compassion for future generations, thinking:
‘appeva nāma pacchimā janatā diṭṭhānugatiṃ āpajjeyyuṃ.	‘Hopefully those who come after might follow my example.’
Ye kira te ahesuṃ buddhānubuddhasāvakā te dīgharattaṃ āraññikā ceva ahesuṃ āraññikattassa ca vaṇṇavādino … pe …	For they may think: ‘It seems that the awakened disciples of the Buddha for a long time lived in the wilderness, ate only alms-food, wore rag robes, and owned just three robes; and they praised these things. They were of few wishes, content, secluded, aloof, and energetic; and they praised these things.’
piṇḍapātikā ceva ahesuṃ … pe …
paṃsukūlikā ceva ahesuṃ …
tecīvarikā ceva ahesuṃ …
appicchā ceva ahesuṃ …
santuṭṭhā ceva ahesuṃ …
pavivittā ceva ahesuṃ …
asaṃsaṭṭhā ceva ahesuṃ …
āraddhavīriyā ceva ahesuṃ vīriyārambhassa ca vaṇṇavādino’ti.
Te tathattāya paṭipajjissanti, tesaṃ taṃ bhavissati dīgharattaṃ hitāya sukhāya.	They’ll practice accordingly, which will be for their lasting welfare and happiness.
Ime khvāhaṃ, bhante, dve atthavase sampassamāno dīgharattaṃ āraññiko ceva āraññikattassa ca vaṇṇavādī, piṇḍapātiko ceva … pe …	Seeing these two benefits I have long practiced these things.”
paṃsukūliko ceva …
tecīvariko ceva …
appiccho ceva …
santuṭṭho ceva …
pavivitto ceva …
asaṃsaṭṭho ceva …
āraddhavīriyo ceva vīriyārambhassa ca vaṇṇavādī”ti.
“Sādhu sādhu, kassapa.	“Good, good, Kassapa!
Bahujanahitāya kira tvaṃ, kassapa, paṭipanno bahujanasukhāya lokānukampāya atthāya hitāya sukhāya devamanussānaṃ.	You’re acting for the welfare and happiness of the people, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans.
Tasmātiha tvaṃ, kassapa, sāṇāni ceva paṃsukūlāni dhārehi nibbasanāni, piṇḍāya ca carāhi, araññe ca viharāhī”ti.	So Kassapa, wear worn-out hempen rag robes, walk for alms, and stay in the wilderness.”

SN 16.13 lax vinaya leads to declide of true Dharma

13. The Counterfeit of the True Teaching

13. Saddhammappatirūpakasutta	13. The Counterfeit of the True Teaching
Evaṃ me sutaṃ—	So I have heard.
ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.	At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.
Atha kho āyasmā mahākassapo yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā mahākassapo bhagavantaṃ etadavoca:	Then Venerable Mahākassapa went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:
“ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena pubbe appatarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni ahesuṃ bahutarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahiṃsu?	“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason why there used to be fewer training rules but more enlightened monks?
Ko pana, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yenetarahi bahutarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni appatarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahantī”ti?	And what is the cause, what is the reason why these days there are more training rules and fewer enlightened monks?”
“Evañcetaṃ, kassapa, hoti sattesu hāyamānesu saddhamme antaradhāyamāne, bahutarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni honti appatarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahanti.	“That’s how it is, Kassapa. When sentient beings are in decline and the true teaching is disappearing there are more training rules and fewer enlightened monks.
Na tāva, kassapa, saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati.	The true teaching doesn’t disappear as long the counterfeit of the true teaching hasn’t appeared in the world.
Yato ca kho, kassapa, saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.	But when the counterfeit of the true teaching appears in the world then the true teaching disappears.
Seyyathāpi, kassapa, na tāva jātarūpassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na jātarūpappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati.	It’s like true gold, which doesn’t disappear as long as counterfeit gold hasn’t appeared in the world.
Yato ca kho, kassapa, jātarūpappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha kho jātarūpassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.	But when counterfeit gold appears in the world then real gold disappears.
Evameva kho, kassapa, na tāva saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati.	In the same way, the true teaching doesn’t disappear as long the counterfeit of the true teaching hasn’t appeared in the world.
Yato ca kho, kassapa, saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.	But when the counterfeit of the true teaching appears in the world then the true teaching disappears.
Na kho, kassapa, pathavīdhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na āpodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na tejodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na vāyodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti;	It’s not the elements of earth, water, fire, or air that make the true teaching disappear.
atha kho idheva te uppajjanti moghapurisā ye imaṃ saddhammaṃ antaradhāpenti.	Rather, it’s the foolish people who appear right here that make the true teaching disappear.
Seyyathāpi, kassapa, nāvā ādikeneva opilavati;	The true teaching doesn’t disappear like a ship that sinks all at once.
na kho, kassapa, evaṃ saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.
Pañca khome, kassapa, okkamaniyā dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti.	There are five detrimental things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.
Katame pañca?	What five?
Idha, kassapa, bhikkhū bhikkhuniyo upāsakā upāsikāyo satthari agāravā viharanti appatissā, dhamme agāravā viharanti appatissā, saṅghe agāravā viharanti appatissā, sikkhāya agāravā viharanti appatissā, samādhismiṃ agāravā viharanti appatissā—	It’s when the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen lack respect and reverence for the Teacher, the teaching, the Saṅgha, the training, and undistractible-lucidity.
ime kho, kassapa, pañca okkamaniyā dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti.	These five detrimental things lead to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching.
Pañca khome, kassapa, dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattanti.	There are five things that lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching.
Katame pañca?	What five?
Idha, kassapa, bhikkhū bhikkhuniyo upāsakā upāsikāyo satthari sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, dhamme sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, saṅghe sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, sikkhāya sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, samādhismiṃ sagāravā viharanti sappatissā—	It’s when the monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen maintain respect and reverence for the Teacher, the teaching, the Saṅgha, the training, and undistractible-lucidity.
ime kho, kassapa, pañca dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattantī”ti.	These five things lead to the continuation, persistence, and enduring of the true teaching.”

A Buddhist monk (Dalai lama) hugging an American nun.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Venerable Thubten Chodron “His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Ven. Thubten Chodron continue to give generously to the Buddhist community, and in particular to the community of Western Buddhist practitioners. This fourth volume in the magnificent Library of Wisdom and Compassion maintains the high standards set in the first three: it is comprehensive without sacrificing relevant detail, it is precise without sacrificing accessibility, and it is of enormous value to practitioners and teachers but still of great interest to scholars of Buddhism.” —Jay L. Garfield, Doris Silbert Professor in the Humanities, Smith College and the Harvard Divinity School

The Library of Wisdom and Compassion is a special multivolume series in which His Holiness the Dalai Lama shares the Buddha’s teachings on the complete path to full awakening that he himself has practiced his entire life. The topics are arranged especially for people seeking practical spiritual advice and are peppered with the Dalai Lama’s own unique outlook. Assisted by his long-term disciple, the American nun Thubten Chodron, the Dalai Lama sets the context for practicing the Buddha’s teachings in modern times and then unveils the path of wisdom and compassion that leads to a meaningful life and sense of personal fulfillment. This series is an important bridge from introductory to profound topics for those seeking an in-depth explanation from a contemporary perspective. If you’re a member of the Wisdom Experience you can read many of the volumes in The Library of Wisdom and Compassion now in the Reading Room, and we’re working on getting the rest added.

Re: B.sujato translates 'metta' as 'love'. That's horrible, and it's wrong.

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Post by frank k » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:10 am

Nicolas wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:08 am

What about “universal love”?

As a translation for 'metta', 'universal love' is better than 'loving kindness', but still problematic.
B. Sujato's translation of 'metta' as 'love' is beyond problematic and wrong, it's horrible.
Here's an example of why.

Buddhist monk (Dalai lama) hugging an American nun.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ging.html

Lots of skin to skin contact here as far as I can tell from the picture.
Too much 'loving-kindness' here (Dalai lama's usual translation for 'metta').

Re: A Buddhist monk (Dalai lama) hugging an American nun.

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Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:31 pm

1. It is an offence of formal meeting to touch a woman with lustful intent.
2. It is an offence of wrong-doing to touch a woman with affection. The behaviour of the Dalai Lama seems to be an offence under this rule, but not knowing his mind with my mind, I am not qualified to say that he has affection in his mind. Perhaps he is just following the social convention and has only mettā. One could liken it to shaking hands with a woman in the West to avoid making them feel uncomfortable. I don't usually shake hands with women, but try to explain the right way to greet a monk.
3. There is no offence to touch a woman to rescue her from danger.† Catching an elderly woman to prevent her falling or pulling a woman out of a river to prevent her drowning is not usually done with any unwholesome mental states, though the mind can change quickly.
4. Again, if a woman grabs a monk with lustful intent or for some other reason, there is no offence for the monk unless he prolongs the contact to enjoy it with lustful or affectionate intent.

Buddhist Monastic Code wrote:The Vibhaṅga does not discuss the issue of bhikkhus who intentionally make active contact with women for purposes other than lust or affection — e.g., helping a woman who has fallen into a raging river — but the Commentary does. It introduces the concept of anāmasa, things carrying a Dukkaṭa penalty when touched; women and clothing belonging to a woman top the list. It then goes into great detail to tell how one should behave when one’s mother falls into a raging river. Under no circumstances, it says, should one grab hold of her, although one may extend a rope, a board, etc., in her direction. If she happens to grab hold of her son the bhikkhu, he should not shake her off, but should simply let her hold on as he swims back to shore.
Where the Commentary gets the concepts of anāmasa is hard to say. Perhaps it came from the practices of the Brahmin caste, who are very careful not to touch certain things and people of certain lower castes. At any rate, there is no direct basis for it in the Canon. Although the concept has received universal acceptance in Theravādin Communities, many highly‑respected Vinaya experts have made an exception right here, saying that there is nothing wrong in touching a woman when one’s action is based not on lust, but on a desire to save her from danger.†

Post by frank k » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:14 am

Thanks Venerable Pesala. I'm also hoping people can contribute links to previously written articles that can help explain that strict rules serve important purposes, and that 'skillful means' and 'crazy wisdom' are usually just rationalizations to commit crimes of passion. I'm sure it's well covered territory and many people in the past have explained it clearly and in detail. It would be good to collect them as a resource for future generations to study.

Dan74 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:17 pm

frank k,

I think you are drawing a very long bow by linking sex scandals in Tibetan and Mahayana Buddhism to more relaxed rules on hugging. The people involved in sex scandals by and large were not monks, so the Vinaya was irrelevant. But logically I don't find the connection plausible. Rather the causes lie elsewhere.

I think the correlation is very clear and undeniable.
Let's compare two traditions. Ajahn Chah's forest monk lineage, which follows Theravada vinaya rules strictly.
Have there any even been any sex scandals in that lineage?
If monks had difficulty with lust that they couldn't overcome, they always have the option to disrobe, and return to the lay life.
In the early days of the Buddha's dispensation, all or most of the monks were arahants, fully awakened, and there was no vinaya or rules.
The rules are there are the unawakened, they were carefully crafted for specific purposes, and they work well, as long as disciples follow them.

There's no rationalizing 'skillful means' (Mahayana) or 'crazy wisdom' (tibetan buddhism) to justify coarse sensual pleasures of sex, no matter what flavor of Buddhism anyone follows. The prohibition in the Theravada vinaya from hugging and having any physical contact, gives clear cut concrete rules to ensure physical sexual abuse can't happen. Regardless of whether the Tibetan lamas or Mahayana bodhisattva aspirants partially or don't follow the vinaya (where Bodhisattva vows and 'skillful means' can trump the vinaya seemingly whenever it's convenient for them), fundamentally indulgence in sensual pleasures are unskillful qualities, and any kind of physical contact that can encourage it is obviously a potential problem, especially with unenlightened beings.

Just look at some of the samples you can find easily from the Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhist world. Even though some of them are not bound by the vinaya, their behavior is far off any kind of ethical human behavior. Even the non-celibate have ethical standards. Had they been following the vinaya, then at least there would be clear cut rules obvious to everyone whether they were behaving within rules.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 9859.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7319165/c ... -dakinis/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... k-secrets

That's just a tiny sampling of sexual abuse among the non vinaya followers.

Re: A Buddhist monk (Dalai lama) hugging an American nun.

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Post by frank k » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:51 am

Dan74 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:24 am

Your argument that the behaviour like the Dalai Lama's above leads to sex scandals is patent nonsense. And yes, I will stop wasting my time trying to reason with someone who is wilfully blind.

I was hoping the community could provide more articles that addressed this issues, or ones similar to this, on why basic vinaya rules are so important. I don't want to restate and rehash what has already been eloquently explained many times throughout history.

But until they do, I'll have to spend hopefully not too much time to point out the obvious and spell it out for those of you who don't see the problem with monks hugging women (platonically).

I never argued that hugging leads to sex scandals. I hardly said anything at all in the original blog post, I thought the picture and bare description alone was enough for those who have eyes and basic ability to think and understand ethics could see potential problems.

The Buddha taught for 45 years, and had a vinaya, a code of discipline for monastics, developed and refined over that long period of time. Many of the rules are minor. But the major rules are really important, and they are there exactly as they are, for important reasons.

One of those rules, which the Dalai Lama is not following in the photograph, prohibits intentional physical contact such as hugging (accidentally bumping into a woman is not an offense) between monks and any woman, even their mom or sister.

1. Why not even their mom, sister, or grandmother, or daughter?

Because the rest of the world probably doesn't know that woman is their relative.
They don't know whether the hug is platonic or romantic.

2. A timeless principle is that people learn not just from hearing and thinking about teachings, but probably much more from modeling, following living examples of their teachers and fellow students. Even if the teacher is enlightened and can hug anyone platonically without lust, their students are not. Having special rules for different classes of people complicates things, so they're avoided as much as possible. Enlightened teachers observe their own strict rules to set a good example, not because they personally need them.

So if the Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhist teachers followed the Buddha's rule of not having any physical contact between monastics of the opposite sex, then these things would not have happened, or if they did happened, it would be clear to both the perpetrators and the victims that what was going on was illicit and prohibited.

3. Have you forgotten what its like to be in puberty with raging hormones?
If you have forgotten, just look at dogs and animals in the wild when it's mating season. What do you think it's like for monastics who ordain young? Why do muslim women wear hijab to veil their face? As a college muslim (male) friend attending a decadent American university in the springtime when the weather was warm and beautiful once told me,

"I love America. Where I'm from, when you look at young women, there's nothing to see, it's like looking at a tent."

Some real examples:
1. SANGHARAKSHITA raping hetersexual men, some of them underage (age of consent for homosexual sex), all of them believing it was spiritual friendship and a blessing for spiritual empowerment and not a sick rapist preying on innocent kids he lied to. If no hugging and physical contact was even allowed, then how can this happen? It would be obvious to victims what is inappropriate and illicit behavior. Hugging on its own is not the cause of sexual crime, but prohibiting hugging can prevent or deter victims from being lied to.

https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... al-abuse/


I could go on for pages and pages. Chogyam Rinpoche. And some of this students like this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_Tendzin

It was revealed in 1989 that Ösel Tendzin had contracted HIV and for nearly three years knew it, yet continued to have unsafe sex with his students without informing them.[15][16] He transmitted it to a student who later died of AIDS.[17][18][19] Others close to Tendzin, including the board of directors of Vajradhatu, knew for two years that Tendzin was HIV-positive and sexually active but kept silent.[20] As one student reported at the time,

I was very distressed that he and his entourage had lied to us for so long, always saying he did not have AIDS. I was even more distressed over the stories of how the Regent used his position as a dharma teacher to induce "straight" students to have unprotected sex with him, while he claimed he had been tested for AIDS but the result was negative.[11]

Stephen Butterfield, a former student, recounted in a memoir:

Tenzin offered to explain his behavior at a meeting which I attended. Like all of his talks, this was considered a teaching of dharma, and donations were solicited and expected. So I paid him $35.00 to hear his explanation. In response to close questioning by students, he first swore us to secrecy (family secrets again), and then said that Trungpa had requested him to be tested for HIV in the early 1980s and told him to keep quiet about the positive result. Tendzin had asked Trungpa what he should do if students wanted to have sex with him, and Trungpa's reply was that as long as he did his Vajrayana purification practices, it did not matter, because they would not get the disease. Tendzin's answer, in short, was that he had obeyed the guru.[21]

If they followed the Buddha's rules on no hugging, then how can this kind of tragedy happen?

Related articles:

SN 16.5 Enlightened Arahant Maha Kassapa keeping strict rules to set a good example for future generations

KN (the EBT portion): every single vitakka reference highlighted, with hyperlink to sutta in pali and english

KN

• every vitakka reference in KN
  • KN Dhp 349 lustful thinking
  • KN Dhp 350 2nd jhana or higher samadhi implied + 31asb body parts
  • KN Ud 1.10 bāhiya has thought in private retreat, deva reads his mind
  • KN Ud 2.8 laywoman has thoughts of confidence in buddha and dhamma
  • KN Ud 4.1 Meghiya, Buddha’s attendent has 3 wrong thoughts in private retreat
  • KN Ud 4.1 breath meditation 16 APS 🌬️😤 → remove vitakka/thinking
  • KN Ud 4.1 Buddha exalted utterance on removing vitakka/thinking
  • KN Ud 4.5 thought arises in Buddha’s private retreat
  • KN Ud 4.5 similar thought arises in elephant
  • KN Ud 4.5 buddha reads elephant’s mind
  • KN Ud 4.9 an arahant has thought in private retreat, buddha reads his mind
  • KN Ud 5.6 several pari vitakka thoughts occur to sona in private retreat
  • KN Ud 6.7 subhuti in 2nd jhana or higher, buddha knows he’s in samadhi
  • KN Ud 6.7 buddha praises him with verse alluding to avitakka samadhi, arupa, nirvana
  • KN Iti 38 vitakka sutta: 2 types of thoughts buddha thinks frequently
  • KN Iti 38 thoughts of good will
  • KN Iti 38 thoughts of seclusion from akusala dharmasl
  • KN Iti 80 vitakka sutta: 3 finer akusala thoughts to be abandoned by monk
  • KN Iti 85 annoying external thoughts are removed with 16APS breath meditation
  • KN Iti 86 remembering and thinking about Dharma all the time, all 4 postures
  • KN Iti 87 removing 3 wrong thoughts, developing 3 right thoughts, 2nd jhana and nirvana
  • KN Iti 110 apply same 3 wrong thoughts to all 4 postures, then right 3 thoughts for all 4 postures
  • KN Snp 1.1 removing discursive thought
  • KN Snp 2.5 sūciloma the demon asks what causes thoughts to fling mind around
  • KN Snp 2.12 thought arises in vangisa’s private retreat
  • KN Snp 4.8 vitakka and cinta in a debate of views
  • KN Snp 4.12 sañña (perception), takka (conjecture) and sarati (recollection)
  • KN Snp 4.16 sariputta with thoughts on eating and sleeping
  • KN Snp 4.16 takka in context here must be vitakka of 1st jhana
  • KN Snp 5.14 using 4th jhana quality of samadhi to contemplate dhamma with takka
  • KN Snp 5.14 vitakka and vicara used to realize nirvana
  • KN Thag 1.50 arahant in 2nd jhana or higher samadhi
  • KN Thag 9.1 arahant in 2nd jhana or higher samadhi
  • KN Thag 10.5 afflicted by thought and 5niv
  • KN Thag 14.1 7sb sequence using 4bv metta, pamojja, 2nd jhana noble silence
  • KN Thag 17.2 sariputta in 2nd jhana noble silence
  • KN Thag 21.1 vangisa early struggles with wrong thoughts
  • KN Thag 21.1 vangisa wrong thoughts much tamer
  • KN Thag 21.1 vitakka as ‘opinion’ and relationship with ‘views’
  • KN Thig 5.2 avitakka (2nd jhana implied)

AN: every reference to vitakka in there (162 hits) with links directly to sutta passage

AN (162 hits)

• every vitakka reference in AN
  • AN 1.583 kaya-gata-sati and 7sb passadhi
  • AN 2.13 STED 1st and 2nd jhana as part of bhavana-bala
  • AN 2.38 child, senior monk with thoughts of sensuality
  • AN 3.40 3 types of wrong thoughts mind readable by deities
  • AN 3.59 STED 1st and 2nd jhana, part of Buddhist tevijja in contrast to brahman 3 vedas
  • AN 3.60 (2c. telepathy by directly “hearing” vitakka and vicara)
  • AN 3.60 (2d. Telepathy by 6ab #3, abhiñña #3, mind encompass mind)
  • AN 3.60 (3. Miracle of instructing monks how to ‘think’)
  • AN 3.63 STED all four jhanas in all four postures
  • AN 3.65 kalama sutta, reasoned thinking
  • AN 3.66 reasoned thinking
  • AN 3.74 STED 1st and 2nd jhana, nigantha and jains
  • AN 3.94 first jhana at the time of stream entry, can lead to nonreturn
  • AN 3.101 monks’ moderate impurities (3 wrong thoughts)
  • AN 3.101 (monk’s fine impurities) thoughts about family life
  • AN 3.101 (first jhana, or close to it) only Dharma thoughts
  • AN 3.112 thinking and evaluation based on desire and lust leads to karma/action
  • AN 3.123 a gift to monk with 3 wrong thoughts not fruitful
  • AN 3.123 a gift to monk with 3 right thoughts very fruitful
  • AN 3.124 buddha doesn’t like going to places where monks have 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 3.128 unskillful thoughts compared to flies attracted to rotting flesh
  • AN 4.11 3 wrong thoughts in all 4 postures
  • AN 4.11 one who purifies thoughts in all 4 postures capable of nirvana
  • AN 4.14 pahana/removing 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 4.21 thought arises in buddha’s private retreat
  • AN 4.21 brahma reads buddha’s mind
  • AN 4.35 think what he wants, doesn’t think what he doesnt (vitakka & sankappo)
  • AN 4.41 knowing arising and passing of vedana, perceptions, and thoughts
  • AN 4.72 right view and 3 right thoughts the groundwork for nirvana
  • AN 4.114 monk destroys 3 wrong thoughts like royal elephant
  • AN 4.123 monk with 1st jhana qualified for rebirth in brahma realm as once returner
  • AN 4.123 for 2nd jhana, higher deva realm, 2 aeon lifespan instead of 1
  • AN 4.124 STED four jhanas, doing vipassana WHILE in jhana, rebirth in pure abode
  • AN 4.138 on retreat in body, but not in mind, 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 4.138 retreat in mind, not body, 3 right thoughts
  • AN 4.138 retreat in neither mind, nor body, 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 4.138 retreat in both mind and body, 3 right thoughts
  • AN 4.163 STED four jhanas, pleasant practice with slow insight
  • AN 4.163 STED four jhanas, pleasant practice fast insight
  • AN 4.164 samā/calming practice is removing 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 4.165 samā/calming practice is removing 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 4.190 STED four jhanas is ‘attained to devas’, 4bv are ‘attained to brahma’
  • AN 4.193 reasoned thinking
  • AN 4.200 STED 4 jhanas not born of love and hate
  • AN 4.262 having 3 wrong thoughts, not ready for forest. 3 right thoughts, ready.
  • AN 5.14 STED 4 jhanas as part of STED 5bal powers samadhi bala
  • AN 5.26 using vitakka, vicara, upekkha to enter first jhana and 7sb awakening sequence
  • AN 5.28 STED four jhanas, famous similes
  • AN 5.73 not a ‘dhamma dweller’ because of too much thinking V&V&U, not enough samatha
  • AN 5.74 not a ‘dhamma dweller’ because of too much thinking V&V&U, not enough discernment
  • AN 5.94 STED 4 jhanas part of phasu vihara, comfortable abiding
  • AN 5.140 monk destroys 3 wrong thoughts, comparable to royal elephant
  • AN 5.155 not memorizing, reciting, thinking and evaluating leads to end of True Dharma
  • AN 5.179 layperson should continuously think about Dharma
  • AN 6.34 thought occurs to moggallana in private retreat
  • AN 6.45 unskillful thoughts, in simile of debt, interest, prosecution
  • AN 6.51 reciting Dharma, thinking and evaluating and inspecting it V&V&U
  • AN 6.55 thought occurs to Sona in private retreat, Buddha reads his mind
  • AN 6.56 cutting off 5 lower fetters while listening and/or thinking about Dharma
  • AN 6.56 attaining arahantship while listening and/or thinking about Dharma
  • AN 6.58 removing defilements by removing 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 6.60 STED 1st and 2nd jhana, monk who has it still disrobes with many similes
  • AN 6.74 removing 3 wrong thoughts prerequisite to first jhana.
  • AN 6.75 one can do first jhana (and all 4 jhanas) with 3 right thoughts and 3 right perceptions
  • AN 6.109 develop 3 right thoughts to remove 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 7.38 watching rise and fall of perceptions, vedana, vitakka while in jhana
  • AN 7.39 sariputta doing same as AN 7.38 watching rise and fall of vitakka
  • AN 7.53 STED 4 jhanas laywoman can do
  • AN 7.61 using thinking and evaluating Dharma to counter drowsiness in meditation
  • AN 7.67 STED four jhanas in fortress simile
  • AN 7.69 STED 4 jhanas compared to flowers in various growth stages
  • AN 7.70 thought occurs to sariputta in private retreat
  • AN 7.95 thoughts corresponding to 6 sense media
  • AN 8.9 nanda doing AN 4.41 watching rise and fall of vedana, sanna, vitakka
  • AN 8.11 STED 4 jhanas, 7sb, compare to breaking eggshell
  • AN 8.30 thought occurs to anuruddha in private retreat
  • AN 8.30 Buddha reads his mind and appears by mind made body
  • AN 8.30 buddha praises him for thinking thoughts of a great man
  • AN 8.30 STED 4 jhanas, note the 8 great thoughts and vitakka of first jhana MUST MEAN THE SAME THING
  • AN 8.63 three ways of samadhi, with and without thinking, map to 4 jhanas, 4sp, 4bv
  • AN 8.63 same three way samadhi is repeated with each of 4 brahmavihara and 4 satipatthana
  • AN 9.1 using 16APS breath meditation to remove thoughts
  • AN 9.3 meghiya unhappy he still has 3 wrong thoughts
  • AN 9.3 using 16APS breath meditation to remove thoughts
  • AN 9.14 resolves & thoughts in relationship to sati, samadhi, panna
  • AN 9.31 progessive cessations, vitakka ceases in 2nd jhana
  • AN 9.33 progressive cessations, STED 1st and 2nd jhana
  • AN 9.34 STED 1st and 2nd jhana, impure 2nd jhana interrupted by thought
  • AN 9.35 STED 1st and 2nd jhana, foolish cow tries for 2nd jhana before mastering 1st.
  • AN 9.38 STED 4 jhanas, 1st jhana ‘at end of world’ because it’s outside of 5kg sensual pleasures
  • AN 9.39 STED 4 jhanas, monk in secure place from mara
  • AN 9.40 STED 4 jhanas, compared to elephant in solitude
  • AN 9.41 STED 4 jhanas, buddha thinks about impurities in each jhana
  • AN 9.42 STED 4 jhanas, what is confinement in each jhana
  • AN 9.43 STED 4 jhanas body witness
  • AN 10.60 removing 3 wrong thoughts, pahana
  • AN 10.72 thinking is a thorn for second jhana
  • AN 10.99 STED 4 jhanas, part of 9 successively better attainments
  • AN 11.16 STED 4 jhanas, part of 11 doors to deathless
  • AN 11.17 not removing 3 wrong thoughts compared to picking out flies’ eggs

Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

The Caste System (Brahmin and Kshatriya) Summary: ... The system of classification, Varna is a system that existed in the Vedic Society that divided the society into four classes Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (skilled traders, merchants), and Shudras (unskilled workers).Nov 25, 2015

The Caste System (Brahmin and Kshatriya) – Religion 100Q ...

https://scholarblogs.emory.edu › 2015/11/25 › the-caste-system-brahmin-an...


Explanation： khattiya : [m.] a man of the warrior caste. (adj.),to belonging Khattiyas. || khattiyā (f.), a woman of the Khattiya clan.
khattiya - Dictionary | Buddhistdoor

https://www.buddhistdoor.net › dictionary › details › khattiya

MN 96 (b.sujato) (4 castes hierarchy explained here)

“brāhmaṇā, bho gotama, catasso pāricariyā paññapenti—	“Master Gotama, the brahmins prescribe four kinds of service:
brāhmaṇassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti, khattiyassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti, vessassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti, suddassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti.	for a brahmin, an aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker.
Tatridaṃ, bho gotama, brāhmaṇā brāhmaṇassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti:	This is the service they prescribe for a brahmin:
‘brāhmaṇo vā brāhmaṇaṃ paricareyya, khattiyo vā brāhmaṇaṃ paricareyya, vesso vā brāhmaṇaṃ paricareyya, suddo vā brāhmaṇaṃ paricareyyā’ti.	‘A brahmin, an aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker may all serve a brahmin.’
Idaṃ kho, bho gotama, brāhmaṇā brāhmaṇassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti.
Tatridaṃ, bho gotama, brāhmaṇā khattiyassa pāricariyaṃ paññapenti:	This is the service they prescribe for an aristocrat:
‘khattiyo vā khattiyaṃ paricareyya, vesso vā khattiyaṃ paricareyya, suddo vā khattiyaṃ paricareyyā’ti.	‘An aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker may all serve an aristocrat.’

AN 11.10 (b.sujato trans.) 

‘Khattiyo seṭṭho janetasmiṃ,	‘The aristocrat is best of those people
ye gottapaṭisārino;	who take clan as the standard.
Vijjācaraṇasampanno,	But one accomplished in knowledge and conduct
so seṭṭho devamānuse’”ti.	Is best of gods and humans.’”

Re: Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

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Post by frank k » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:46 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:25 am

It is not a bad translation. Possibly better than the widely used “warrior.”

Khattiya were kings and rulers.

I can't think of what sutta at the moment, but I recall a passage saying something to the effect that the khattiya (warrior) class was the best, because of the mental toughness, the tenacity, the ability to face extreme adversity. The concept of 'warrior' matches that perfectly. The concept of 'nobleman' or 'aristocrat' brings to mind a fat cat hiding in his castle and ordering his servants and soldiers to do the hard work.

ar·is·toc·ra·cy

/ˌerəˈstäkrəsē/
noun
the highest class in certain societies, especially those holding hereditary titles or offices.
"the ancient Polish aristocracy had hereditary right to elect the king"
synonyms: the nobility, the peerage, the gentry, the upper class, the ruling class, the privileged class, the elite, high society, the establishment, the patriciate, the haut monde, the beau monde; More
a form of government in which power is held by the nobility.
a state governed by the aristocracy.
plural noun: aristocracies


A friend responded:

Hello Frank,
I did a little look-up in O.E.D.
Aristocracy is a Greek origin compound meaning best-rule. The rule part,
cracy, it would be my bet, is related to khattiya; but that is not
official. But the word Aristocrat, does not come directly from the
Greek, but from the French, coined during the French Revolution to
distinguish between Democracy and the oligarchic aristocracy that
previously ruled thinking themselves the best to rule.
I have used 'aristocrat' for 'ariya' where it indicates noble behavior
(as in the ariya atthangika magga), because that must be the origin of
the 'aristo' part, that is: 'worthy' which is close enough to 'best'.
And aristocratic is in common usage as indicating noble behavior.
The fact is that the khattiya were the rulers, though the kings often
delegated administration of towns and lands to the brahmins. This was
pretty standard throughout the world until the American and French
Revolutions. That is that the warriors were also the bosses.
And I think the four colors business is actually a reasonable way
hierarchies in human populations develop. Here we have 'politicians and
the military', 'academics and preachers', 'merchants' and 'workers'.
The truest translation would be 'warrior' but that does not convey today
the idea of rule, whereas 'aristocrat' does. And again looking back at
the history, the aristocrat class did emerge from the warriors.
Conclusion: Aristocrat for khattiya is reasonable. 

Re: Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

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Post by frank k » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:24 am

Is there a way to set up a vote on dhammawheel forum software?

I propose these as better translations for khattiya:

warrior-kings
warrior-rulers
warrior-noblemen
warrior-nobles