Thursday, April 30, 2020

SN 12.63: B. Sujato 🤦 can't tell the difference between metta, 'love' and 'lust'.

Kāma usually means sensuality or lust.
But occasionally in the suttas, it's used in a neutral or positive context, such as an extreme desire/determination to do some skillful activity. In this sutta, SN 12.63, it's a neutral or ordinary context of everyone's 'love' of life and fear of death.

But because B. Sujato translates 'metta' as 'love', and he actually overuses 'love' in translating many other pali words besides 'metta', for some reason in this sutta, where 'love' is actually the perfect word to translate 'kāma', he decides to under translate it as 'want'. Similar to how 'dislike' is not really the appropriate way to describe 'hate'.


B. Sujato's  🤦 translation of 'kāma' as 'want' 

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.63/en/sujato


Kathañca, bhikkhave, manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo?
And how should you regard mental intention as fuel?
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, aṅgārakāsu sādhikaporisā puṇṇā aṅgārānaṃ vītaccikānaṃ vītadhūmānaṃ.
Suppose there was a pit of glowing coals deeper than a man’s height, filled with glowing coals that neither flamed nor smoked.
Atha puriso āgaccheyya jīvitukāmo amaritukāmo sukhakāmo dukkhappaṭikūlo.
Then a person would come along who wants to live and doesn’t want to die, who wants to be happy and recoils from pain.
Tamenaṃ dve balavanto purisā nānābāhāsu gahetvā taṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ upakaḍḍheyyuṃ.
Then two strong men would grab them by the arms and drag them towards the pit of glowing coals.
Atha kho, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa ārakāvassa cetanā ārakā patthanā ārakā paṇidhi.
Then that person’s intention, aim, and wish would be to get far away.
Taṃ kissa hetu?
Why is that?
Evañhi, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa hoti:
Because that person would think:
‘imañcāhaṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ papatissāmi, tatonidānaṃ maraṇaṃ vā nigacchāmi maraṇamattaṃ vā dukkhan’ti.
‘If I fall in that pit of glowing coals, that will result in my death or deadly pain.’
Evameva khvāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ‘manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo’ti vadāmi.
I say that this is how you should regard mental intention as fuel.
Manosañcetanāya, bhikkhave, āhāre pariññāte tisso taṇhā pariññātā honti.
When mental intention as fuel is completely understood, the three cravings are completely understood.
Tīsu taṇhāsu pariññātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiñci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi.
When the three cravings are completely understood, a noble disciple has nothing further to do, I say.


For comparison, B. Thanissaro's translation: of the same words and passage:


3. ♦ “kathañca, bhikkhave, manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo? seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, aṅgārakāsu sādhikaporisā puṇṇā aṅgārānaṃ vītaccikānaṃ vītadhūmānaṃ. atha puriso āgaccheyya jīvitukāmo amaritukāmo sukhakāmo dukkhappaṭikūlo. tamenaṃ dve balavanto purisā nānābāhāsu gahetvā taṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ upakaḍḍheyyuṃ. atha kho, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa ārakāvassa cetanā ārakā patthanā ārakā paṇidhi. taṃ kissa hetu? evañhi, bhikkhave, tassa purisassa hoti — ‘imaṃ cāhaṃ aṅgārakāsuṃ papatissāmi, tatonidānaṃ maraṇaṃ vā nigacchāmi maraṇamattaṃ vā dukkhan’ti. evameva khvāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ‘manosañcetanāhāro daṭṭhabbo’ti vadāmi. manosañcetanāya, bhikkhave, āhāre pariññāte tisso taṇhā pariññātā honti. tīsu taṇhāsu pariññātāsu ariyasāvakassa natthi kiñci uttarikaraṇīyanti vadāmi.
3) “And how is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded? Suppose there were a pit of glowing embers, deeper than a man’s height, full of embers that were neither flaming nor smoking, and a man were to come along—loving life, hating death, loving pleasure, abhorring pain—and two strong men, having grabbed him by the arms, were to drag him to the pit of embers. To get far away would be that man’s intention, far away would be his wish, far away would be his aspiration. Why is that? Because he would realize, ‘If I fall into this pit of glowing embers, I will meet with death from that cause, or with death-like pain.’ In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded. When the nutriment of intellectual intention is comprehended, the three forms of craving [for sensuality, for becoming, and for non-becoming] are comprehended. When the three forms of craving are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.    


The point is errors cascade and compound

When you make a serious translation and interpretation error (B. Sujato translation of 'metta' as 'love'), then the errors compound and cascade when you have to translate other related pali words incorrectly to not clash with and amplify your original error.



Tuesday, April 28, 2020

difference between Viññāṇa and Sañña (Vism. explanation doesn't make sense)

(from a thread on Dhammawheel)

Re: What is Pajanati?

Post by frank k » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:13 am
Ven. Dhammanando, (and anyone else),
Can you think of any EBT suttas that support the Vism. interpretation below on the difference between vinnana/consciousness and sanna/perception? I can't.

What the EBT says, is that 6 consciousness is the rawest form of sensory data. Perception adds labels and ideas from memory built on top of the raw sensory data of conciousness.
So in the Vism. analogy differentiating the child (perception), villager (concsiouness), in EBT terms, they would both be perceptions. The child has a less sophisticated model, and the villager a more complex one, but they are still just perceptions.
consciousness would be raw sensory of the data through 6 sense doors (color, shape, sound it makes, what it smells like).

Dhammanando wrote: 
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: 
Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:27 pm
Do you know whether there is a sutta source for the three types of developing "jānāti" the venerable quoted?
They are from the Visuddhimagga ch. XIV.
(ii) IN WHAT SENSE IS IT UNDERSTANDING? It is understanding (paññā) in the sense of act of understanding (pajānana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jānana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sañjānana) and cognizing (vijānana). For though the state of knowing (jānana-bhāva) is equally present in perception (saññā), in consciousness (viññāṇa), and in understanding (paññā), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, blue or yellow; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics, and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path.

4. Suppose there were three people, a child without discretion, a villager, and a money-changer, who saw a heap of coins lying on a money-changer’s counter. The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square or round; he does not know that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment. And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc., and that they are reckoned as valuable for human use and enjoyment; but he does not know such distinctions as, “This one is genuine, this is false, this is half-value.” The money-changer knows all those kinds, and he does so by looking at the coin, and by listening to the sound of it when struck, and by smelling its smell, tasting its taste, and weighing it in his hand, and he knows that it was made in a certain village or town or city or on a certain mountain or by a certain master. And this may be understood as an illustration.

5. Perception is like the child without discretion seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mere mode of appearance of the object as blue and so on. Consciousness is like the villager seeing the coin, because it apprehends the mode of the object as blue, etc., and because it extends further, reaching the penetration of its characteristics. Understanding is like the money-changer seeing the coin, because, after apprehending the mode of the object as blue, etc., and extending to the penetration of the characteristics, it extends still further, reaching the manifestation of the path. That is why this act of understanding should be understood as “knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing.” For that is what the words “it is understanding in the sense of act of understanding” refer to.
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Sunday, April 26, 2020

What's the difference between the Buddha and Arahants (in special abilities)? Then why didn't Buddha prevent monks from committing suicide?

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=36930



(Ven. Dhamma nando responds): 


Some of the ten Tathāgata powers are exclusive to Buddhas, while others can be attained (albeit to a lesser degree) by the more adept disciples.

(Ven. Dhamma nando responds):

The Paṭisambhidāmagga is the go-to text for the systematic treatment of this subject. Its mātikā lists a total of seventy-three kinds of understanding (including the Tathāgata powers) and states that the first sixty-seven are held in common with disciples and the last six are not:

Knowledge Shared by Disciples

(ñāṇāni sāvakasādhāraṇāni)

1. sotāvadhāne paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt).

2. sutvāna saṃvare paññā sīlamaye ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of restraint after hearing (learning) is knowledge of what consists in virtue.

3. saṃvaritvā samādahane paññā samādhibhāvanāmaye ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of concentrating after restraining is knowledge of what consists in the development of concentration.

4. paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ
Understanding of embracing conditions is knowledge of the causal relationship of ideas.

5. atītānāgatapaccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ saṅkhipitvā vavatthāne paññā sammasane ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining past, future and present ideas, after generalization, is knowledge of comprehension.

6. paccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of contemplating presently-arisen ideas' change is knowledge of contemplation of rise and fall.

7. ārammaṇaṃ paṭisaṅkhā bhaṅgānupassane paññā vipassane ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of contemplating dissolution after reflecting on an object is knowledge of insight.

8. bhayatupaṭṭhāne paññā ādīnave ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of appearance as terror is knowledge of danger.

9. muñcitukamyatāpaṭisaṅkhāsantiṭṭhanā paññā saṅkhārupekkhāsu ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflexion, and of composure, is knowledge of the kinds of equanimity about formations.

10. bahiddhā vuṭṭhānavivaṭṭane paññā gotrabhuñāṇaṃ
Understanding of emergence and turning away from the external is change-of-lineage knowledge.

11. dubhato vuṭṭhānavivaṭṭane paññā magge ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of emergence and turning away from both [the external and internal] is knowledge of the path.

12. payogappaṭippassaddhi paññā phale ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of tranquillization of the tasks is knowledge of fruition.

13. chinnavaṭumānupassane paññā vimuttiñāṇaṃ
Understanding of contemplating what is cut off is knowledge of deliverance.

14. tadā samudāgate dhamme passane paññā paccavekkhaṇe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of insight into ideas then arrived at is knowledge of reviewing.

15. ajjhattavavatthāne paññā vatthunānatte ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining internally is knowledge of difference in the physical basis.

16. bahiddhāvavatthāne paññā gocaranānatte ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining externally is knowledge of difference in the domains [of the physical bases].

17. cariyāvavatthāne paññā cariyānānatte ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining behaviour is knowledge of difference in behaviour [of consciousness].

18. catudhammavavatthāne paññā bhūminānatte ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining four ideas is knowledge of difference in plane.

19. navadhammavavatthāne paññā dhammanānatte ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of defining nine ideas is knowledge of difference in idea.

20. abhiññāpaññā ñātaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving up.

21. pariññāpaññā tīraṇaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as direct knowledge is knowledge of the meaning of what-is-known.

22. pahāne paññā pariccāgaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as full understanding is knowledge of the meaning of judgment (investigation).

23. bhāvanāpaññā ekarasaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as developing is knowledge in the sense of single function (taste).

24. sacchikiriyāpaññā phassanaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as realizing is knowledge in the sense of sounding.

25. atthanānatte paññā atthapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in meaning is knowledge of discrimination of meaning.

26. dhammanānatte paññā dhammapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in ideas is knowledge of discrimination of ideas.

27. niruttinānatte paññā niruttipaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in language is knowledge of discrimination of language.

28. paṭibhānanānatte paññā paṭibhānapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in perspicuity is knowledge of discrimination of perspicuity.

29. vihāranānatte paññā vihāraṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in abiding is knowledge of the meaning of abiding.

30. samāpattinānatte paññā samāpattaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in attainment is knowledge of the meaning of attainment.

31. vihārasamāpattinānatte paññā vihārasamāpattaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference in abiding and attainment is knowledge of the meaning of abiding and attainment.

32. avikkhepaparisuddhattā āsavasamucchede paññā ānantarikasamādhimhi ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of cutting off of cankers due to pureness of non-distraction is knowledge of concentration with immediate [result].

33. dassanādhipateyyaṃ santo ca vihārādhigamo paṇītādhimuttatā paññā araṇavihāre ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as predominance of seeing, and as achievement of a peaceful abiding, and as resoluteness on the sublime goal, is knowledge of abiding without conflict.

34. dvīhi balehi samannāgatattā tayo ca saṅkhārānaṃ paṭippassaddhiyā soḷasahi ñāṇacariyāhi navahi samādhicariyāhi vasibhāvatā paññā nirodhasamāpattiyā ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as mastery owing to possession of two powers, to the tranquillization of three formations, to sixteen kinds of behaviour of knowledge, and to nine kinds of behaviour of concentration, is knowledge of the attainment of cessation.

35. sampajānassa pavattapariyādāne paññā parinibbāne ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is knowledge of extinguishment.

36. sabbadhammānaṃ sammā samucchede nirodhe ca anupaṭṭhānatā paññā samasīsaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the complete cutting off of all ideas, of their cessation, and of their non-reappearance, is knowledge of the meaning of same-headed-ness.

37. puthunānattatejapariyādāne paññā sallekhaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of separation, of difference and unity, and of termination of fires, is knowledge of effacement.

38. asallīnattapahitattapaggahaṭṭhe paññā vīriyārambhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of exertion in those possessed of bestirring and endeavour is knowledge of the application of energy.

39. nānādhammappakāsanatā paññā atthasandassane ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of explaining different ideas is knowledge of demonstrating meanings.

40. sabbadhammānaṃ ekasaṅgahatānānattekattapaṭivedhe paññā dassanavisuddhiñāṇaṃ
Understanding of penetrating the includability of all ideas as one, and of their difference and unity, is knowledge of purity in seeing.

41. viditattā paññā khantiñāṇaṃ
Understanding due to what is recognized is knowledge as choice.

42. phuṭṭhattā paññā pariyogāhaṇe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding due to what is touched is knowledge of fathoming.

43. samodahane paññā padesavihāre ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of combination is knowledge of abiding in [the reviewing of ideas as] parts.

44. adhipatattā paññā saññāvivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding due to what is given predominance is knowledge of turning away through perception.

45. nānatte paññā cetovivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of difference is knowledge of turning away by the will.

46. adhiṭṭhāne paññā cittavivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of establishing is knowledge of the turning away of cognizance.

47. suññate paññā ñāṇavivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of voidness is knowledge of the turning away of knowledge.

48. vosagge paññā vimokkhavivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of relinquishment is knowledge of turning away by liberation.

49. tathaṭṭhe paññā saccavivaṭṭe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of suchness is knowledge of turning away in the actualities.

50. kāyampi cittampi ekavavatthānatā sukhasaññañca lahusaññañca adhiṭṭhānavasena ijjhanaṭṭhe paññā iddhividhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of succeeding by defining body and cognizance as one and by steadying easy perception and quick perception is knowledge of the kinds of success (supernormal powers).

51. vitakkavipphāravasena nānattekattasaddanimittānaṃ pariyogāhaṇe paññā sotadhātuvisuddhiñāṇaṃ
Understanding of fathoming sound signs in their difference and unity is knowledge of purification of the ear principle.

52. tiṇṇannaṃ cittānaṃ vipphārattā indriyānaṃ pasādavasena nānattekattaviññāṇacariyā pariyogāhaṇe paññā cetopariyañāṇaṃ
Understanding of fathoming behaviour of consciousness in its difference and unity by means of confidence [and non-confidence] in the [six] faculties due to intervention by three types of cognizances is knowledge of penetration of wills (hearts).

53. paccayappavattānaṃ dhammānaṃ nānattekattakammavipphāravasena pariyogāhaṇe paññā pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇaṃ
Understanding of fathoming ideas conditionally-arisen through intervention of difference and unity in action is knowledge of recollection of past life.

54. obhāsavasena nānattekattarūpanimittānaṃ dassanaṭṭhe paññā dibbacakkhuñāṇaṃ
Understanding of seeing the meaning as signs of visible objects in their difference and unity by means of illumination is knowledge of the divine eye.

55. catusaṭṭhiyā ākārehi tiṇṇannaṃ indriyānaṃ vasībhāvatā paññā āsavānaṃ khaye ñāṇaṃ
Understanding as mastery of three faculties in sixty-four aspects is knowledge of exhaustion of cankers.

56. pariññaṭṭhe paññā dukkhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of full-understanding is knowledge of suffering.

57. pahānaṭṭhe paññā samudaye ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of abandoning is knowledge of origin.

58. sacchikiriyaṭṭhe paññā nirodhe ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of realizing is knowledge of cessation.

59. bhāvanaṭṭhe paññā magge ñāṇaṃ
Understanding of the meaning of developing is knowledge of the path.

60. dukkhe ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of suffering.

61. dukkhasamudaye ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the origin of suffering.

62. dukkhanirodhe ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the cessation of suffering.

63. dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

64. atthapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of discrimination of meaning.

65. dhammapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of discrimination of ideas.

66. niruttipaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of discrimination of language.

67. paṭibhānapaṭisambhide ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of discrimination of perspicuity.

Knowledge not Shared by Disciples

(ñāṇāni asādhāraṇāni sāvakehi)

68. indriyaparopariyatte ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties

69. sattānaṃ āsayānusaye ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies

70. yamakapāṭihīre ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis (Marvel)

71. mahākaruṇāsamāpattiyā ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the Great Compassion

72. sabbaññutañāṇaṃ
Omniscient Knowledge

73. anāvaraṇañāṇaṃ
Unobstructed Knowledge



Which of these 6 powers was the Buddha using when he did nothing to prevent scores of monks from committing suicide in SN 54.9?

Re: The Buddhaguṇas
Post by frank k » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:52 am

(This question is addressed to everyone, not specifically to Ven. D)
Which of these 6 powers was the Buddha using when he did nothing to prevent scores of monks from committing suicide in SN 54.9?
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:22 am
...
Knowledge not Shared by Disciples
(ñāṇāni asādhāraṇāni sāvakehi)

68. indriyaparopariyatte ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties

69. sattānaṃ āsayānusaye ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies

70. yamakapāṭihīre ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis (Marvel)

71. mahākaruṇāsamāpattiyā ñāṇaṃ
Knowledge of the Great Compassion

72. sabbaññutañāṇaṃ
Omniscient Knowledge

73. anāvaraṇañāṇaṃ
Unobstructed Knowledge
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Theravada commentary explanation

User avatarrobertk
Posts: 3554
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am
Re: The Buddhaguṇas
Post by robertk » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:55 pm

from the commentary Note 301 translation by Bodhi
Spk: Why did he speak thus? In the past, it is said, five
hundred men earned their living together as hunters. They
were reborn in hell, but later, through some good kamma,

they took rebirth as human beings and went forth as
monks under the Blessed One. However, a portion of their
original bad kamma had gained the opportunity to ripen
during this fortnight and was due to bring on their deaths
both by suicide and homicide. The Blessed One foresaw
this and realized he could do nothing about it. Among
those monks, some were worldlings, some stream-enterers,
some once-returners, some nonretumers, some arahants.
The arahants would not take rebirth, the other noble disciples
were bound for a happy rebirth, but the worldlings
were of uncertain destiny. The Buddha spoke of foulness to
remove their attachment to the body so that they would
lose their fear of death and could thus be reborn in heaven.
Therefore he spoke on foulness in order to help them, not
with the intention of extolling death. Realizing he could
not tum back the course of events, he went into seclusion
so it is both his omniscience and his knowledge of "penetration of others' faculties".

note 302 :
Spk adds that the
noble ones did not kill anyone, or enjoin others to a,
consent to killing; it was only the worldlings who did so
.

Saturday, April 25, 2020

jhāna constipation: low flow and commando 450


Not everyone is going to experience obvious outward involuntary body shaking in their meditation when they do jhāna properly. But you should be feeling forces inside the body, causing vibrations where energy channels are not fully open. If you're not feeling strong forces, and flow of energy such as heat, electricity, water flow, or air expansion, or gooey magnetic forces, then it's because you're jhana battery is not charged. (See other jhana constipation articles for more detail).

For lay people who aren't celibate and don't keep 8 precepts, your batteries are never going to get charged. You're going to be like the Seinfeld gang here having their normal shower heads replaced with low flow, low water pressure shower heads. Watch the first 60 seconds of this video, note their hair before the low flow heads are installed, and after.




For yogis who maintain brahmacariya (celibacy) purely, not even having lustful thoughts, and staying in noble silence (2nd jhana or better) throughout most of the day, their jhana batteries get charged up quickly (100+ days should feel dramatically different), and the internal forces feel like the shower head being replaced with a high water pressure model, as this short video clip demonstrates:




There's a reason the 2nd jhana simile (AN 5.28) is a lake with no outlets (5 hindrances leaking energy), and the water is fed internally from the spring below. If you've ever sat in a hot spring, sitting with the base of your spine right on top of the spring jet, the water that shoots up your back feels like first and 2nd jhana with hydraulic forces and water flow circulating the microcosmic orbit.



jhāna constipation (from the view of other meditative traditions)



Pranic movements or kriyas


http://www.thekundaliniyoga.org/kundalini/Symptoms_of_Awakening.aspx

Pranic movements or kriyas
Prana is Sanskrit word for vital energy - life-sustaining force of living beings. Pranic movements are intense energy movements of prana throughout the body that helps clear our physiological blocks.

    Throbbing of mooladhar Chakra begins (at the base of spine)
    Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body
    Seeker may experience intense involuntary, jerking movements of the body, including shaking, vibrations, spasm and contraction.
    The whole body shakes, involuntary kumbhak (filling in of the lungs with air) starts beyond control, breath is forcibly exhaled out.
    Deep inhaling and exhaling of breath starts and the body gets uncontrollable.
    Intense heat or cold.
    Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation or resting periods): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways.


Trembling and Shaking whilst Meditating (goenka vipassana)


https://www.vipassanaforum.net/forum/index.php?topic=2027.0
 Trembling and Shaking whilst Meditating
« on: December 29, 2012, 03:53:01 PM »
Dear Vipassana Practitioners,

I have a problem with my meditation: Whenever I meditate my body starts to tremble and shake. It occurs whenever I get into a relaxed and concentrated state. The more relaxed and concentrated I am, the more violent the shaking becomes. Periodically my body starts shivering, like I am cold. The frequency is approximately every 30 seconds to two minutes, depending on how relaxed I am. I can’t do anything about it. If I tense my muscles really hard, it is a bit better, but that´s not good for meditation of course.

It started on a 10 day meditation retreat in 2009. The weeks after the retreat it became worse as I continued my practice. The shivering got so bad that I was worried about my health. It just doesn´t feel healthy. I asked my teacher and everybody I met, but nobody could help me with it. My therapist gave me the advice to stop. So I stopped meditation.

Afterwards I tried Yoga and Qi Gong. But with these I had exactly the same problems whenever I got into a relaxed state. Until now, four years later, it is still the same. I was hoping that it gets better from itself, but until now it didn´t. It would be a shame if I had to stop meditating because of this.

Does anybody have an idea what to do? Or did anyone ever experience something similar?

Thanks so much in advance!

(one of the interesting answers on that thread)



    Guest

Re: Trembling and Shaking whilst Meditating
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2019, 04:12:01 AM »
Glad to have found this thread. Thought this was a very rare experience. Seems like this might be quite common.

EXTREMELY UNPLEASANT SENSATIONS

Had a similar experience on my first Goenka course. Very violet shaking. My meditation shawl had dropped to the ground. I was determined not to break my sitting position. Kept legs crossed and hands clasped together. I was determined to not allow this to stop me from meditating. I decided to observe it for as long as I could. Remember thinking if it gets too much I'll engage in Anapana (observe breathing). It intensified, got stronger, stronger and then gradually lost its power and dissipated away. Remaining equanimous was important. I wasn't phased by it so decided to do nothing about it, except to observe it in all future cases.

My personal take on this is that its just a strong sankhara having a tantrum and trying to stop you from meditating. A bit like a troublesome tenant that doesn't want to be evicted and will cause as much trouble as possible to avoid being kicked out. Basically, its a kick from within when a deep seated complex rises to the surface and doesn't want to leave, at least not without putting up a fight first. If you become imbalanced and lose your equanimity it will overpower you and you will end up reacting to it. Its won the battle and doesn't get evicted.

This happened during my group sitting in the meditation hall. It was during the one hour strong meditation period. This is an hour of strong determination ( Adhiṭṭhāna ) when you try to keep your posture (keep eyes closed. Keep position of arms and legs without changing them). The purpose is to train yourself to break the old habit of reacting to sensations (pleasant or unpleasant).

During the break period I was approached by one of the servers and informed the course guide (course teacher) would like to see me about the shaking. The guide wanted to know whether I was mixing techniques with Vipassana. Was I internally engaging in a silent mantra, some other form of ritual, or auto-suggestion of some sort, etc. I replied no. Its simply the puss coming out ( psychological impurities welling up to the surface and evaporating away).

EXTREMELY PLEASANT SENSATIONS

During the same first course, during a group sit in the dhamma hall. I was sitting as normal, focused on body scanning . All of a sudden started to experience very subtle pleasant sensations radiating outwards from my head. It was like as if my head had exploded into trillions upon trillions of vibrating very pleasant sensations. To the extent that I was temporarily paralysed and became overwhelmed by their seductive nature. I wasn't able to observe them and had lost control. Too busy enjoying the seduction. When I become aware that I was being entrapped by these sensations I tried to snap out of their enchantment. It was hard to gain back control but eventually starting observing them. They dissipated away as quickly as they had appeared.

EXTREMELY PLEASANT AND UNPLEASANT SENSATIONS AT THE SAME TIME

During the same first course, in the dhamma hall, when I was doing a body scan it was a very difficult sitting. On some parts of the body was experiencing pleasant sensations and on other parts very gross, unpleasant ones. As the session progressed the upper body parts (waist up) started to feel extremely pleasant ones and on lower body (waist down) very unpleasant gross ones. It was difficult and mental torture. Eventually, learnt to remain equanimous to both. Noticed both were just vibrations. Coming and going,  coming and going,  coming and going...I remember laughing to myself internally and thinking so this is anicca (impermanent).

PERSONAL THOUGHTS

These experiences taught me that pleasant sensations are the same as unpleasant ones. Neither lead to peace or satisfaction. I knew this at the intellectual level from the Goenka evening discourses but now it was an experiential truth. Reacting to both is a form of enslavement. Of course, you return to your old habit pattern and keep repeating the reactionary responses even after making realisations like this. Its difficult to remain guarded against them. Its a constant challenge.

Its funny how, when extremely pleasant sensations are experienced most meditators don't seem to be concerned but will start to worry if they get an extremely unpleasant sensation. Its the same old habit pattern of reacting to pleasant sensations with craving and to unpleasant sensations with aversion. We constantly play this game of sensations. More pleasant ones please and no thanks to the unpleasant ones. Its extremely hard to observe unpleasant sensations but it's even harder to observe extremely pleasant ones because of the old habit pattern of craving and aversion. I'm not suggesting its easy just that it takes time to reach a level of meditative maturity where you can observe any sensation without reacting.

In a similar vein to what someone stated elsewhere on these forums. It doesn't matter what amazing experiences someone has had, remember they can still be a jerk or a saint. Its a hard journey. You get out of it what you put in. The real measure of progress is how you interact with non-meditators in daily life.

DISCLAIMER: I am not suggesting that you don't take advice from your teacher or guide. If something happens during meditation that concerns you, then definitely seek guidance.




Standing Qigong, Reaching the Advanced Levels

http://www.taijiworld.com/standing-qigong.html

Standing Qigong, The Vital Signs
By Erle Montaigue
Wednesday, April 09, 1997

How do you know when your training is finally beginning to reach an advanced level, or that some of the things that should happen with your training are actually happening. Dedicated students who wish to have some kind of sign as to their progress always ask me these questions.

Well, there are certain physical and internal signs that one is able to look for provided they are told about them. In just the same way that the body lets you know what it wants in the way of healing, provided that you are in tune with your body, Taijiquan lets you know how you are progressing by having certain physiological signs appear in or on your body. These signs begin the moment you begin your Taijiquan and qigong training.

Standing Qigong: The Shakes

The shakes will begin about 3 minutes into your first standing qigong session. The reason for this is that the Qi is already trying to flow more freely and is finding resistance in the form of tension. During standing qigong, the Qi needs to be at full strength or flow so that more Qi can flow freely to all parts of the body. The Qi 'springs' from the bubbling well point or 'K 1' (Kidney one point, the first point on the kidney meridian). But first of all, the Qi must flow downwards from tantien, an electrical point about 3 inches below the navel, to K 1 so that it can then flow to all parts of the body, healing as it goes. The Qi will flow downwards OK, but when it tries to move upwards from K 1, it encounters tension in the thigh muscles. So this Qi flow is like a wave hitting against a wall until so much Qi is built up that it MUST break through in big bits rather than an uninterrupted even flow, hence the shakes. Often when I have obviously strong men come to my classes and I ask them to stand in their first qigong position, they often have a look of "come on, is this all there is to it". But after only a few minutes they, more than anyone else, are shaking like leaves in the breeze. They just cannot understand why, as they are so strong, they are unable to do this simple exercise. What they do not understand is that it has nothing to do with how strong their muscles are, but rather that their Qi flow is impeded because of their huge muscles and more-so, tension caused by exercising in the incorrect way.

After some time, around perhaps 4 to 6 weeks of training in the basic standing qigong, the shakes lessen to a mild vibration and it becomes quite pleasant standing there. This is your best indication of an increased Qi flow and that finally something is beginning to happen. If you do not get the initial shakes, there is something wrong with your stance. Perhaps you have slowly stood up and not even noticed it, this is usually the problem. Everyone, no matter whom gets the shakes.





On Uncontrollable Shaking during Standing Qigong (Taiji Grandmaster FZQ)

https://dankleiman.com/2013/09/26/tai-chi-practice-advice-from-master-feng-zhiqiang/

In the Q&A section of the transcript, Master Feng gives some direct, and indirect, practice advice. The first question is about standing qigong. He is asked, "Basically, how should we stand? Any tips on standing? Some students have experienced interesting phenomena like uncontrollable shaking, whether that's good or bad, and whether we should do anything about it."

Master Feng starts off with what appears to be a very theoretical answer, but I found it to be a pretty accurate description of the "interesting phenomena."

    Everyone, greetings. This is a good question. Standing posture is Wuji, [Translator note: as in "ultimate nothing"]. Standing posture is posture of Wuji. Wuji is the state before Heaven and Earth was formed, when everything was in the primordial soup, when yin and yang were not differentiated. Wuji is silence, not moving, is quiet, whereas Taiji, the name of our practice, is opposite. Even though it looks as if standing posture/standing meditation there's no movement, however inside, just like in the primordial soup, there's always something, there's always something moving. When the internal subtle movement suddenly reaches critical level, then there's a Big Bang. That's when the light stuff floats up and the heavy stuff sinks down. And those that floats up form the heaven, and things that condenses become the Earth. The Big Bang essentially causes Taiji to happen. Taiji is yin and yang, the interplay between yin and yang. Between the interplay of yin and yang, everything else in this world is born. Without Taiji there's nothing, there's not even us. Everything, all life forms. Plants, animals. Human being are at the top of the animal kingdom, we are spiritual beings. The relationship between Heaven, Human, and Earth is the three pillars of the universe. Basically, from Wuji, even though there's no apparent movement, there's always something happening internally. When the time is right, the universe is formed, and Taiji is born. Same thing when we're doing standing meditation. There's no apparent movement, but there's always a little subtle shift. And after you've been doing it for a while you could generate so much energy in your body that you'd just have to move, that's the time for you to start doing your form. Within Wuji, even though the external is without motion, inside there is the beating of the heart, the circulation of blood, the flowing of chi. So within the motionless external something is contained inside that is moving.


He continues with a very detailed cosmological description of the process of moving from Wu Ji to Tai Chi and beyond, which I won't add here. But then he returns to a very practical tip. I bolded the parts I thought were especially important:

    Let's go back to the standing meditation and involuntary movement. Not everyone will experience it. Some people will experience different feelings, different sensations, when your qigong practice is up to a certain level. Movement is one of them. It's normal to move. However, do not seek movement for its own sake. The movement is a side effect. What we want to do is keep our attention, our intention, within our DanTien, and let the movement be. If the movement continues without bothering you, that's fine. But if it gets bigger and bigger, then you should use your will power, your mind, to tell it "look, just stop it; don't move." Usually that will take away or control the movement. However if the movement is so big that it's beyond your control, then it's time to stop. You should do the DanTien turning exercise, gathering all the Qi that is wandering about back into your DanTien, and stop doing QiGong. Some movements are actually good phenomena. However we should not seek the phenomena. We should just focus on practicing QiGong.




Friday, April 24, 2020

jhāna constipation understood by analogy and example

Well, not exactly analogies. Since wave interference patterns happen with physical particles, electromagnetic waves, and bio electric qi flowing through energy meridians in a jhāna meditator, it's more than an analogy. Here are some examples:

1. Water bottle necked

With the bottle on the left, the volume of the water trying to exit the bottle neck, is greater than the volume of the small bottle neck. The excess water volume bounces back, and thus the water drains slowly. With the the bottle on the right, he shakes it so it forms a tornado of spiraling water flow, so the volume of the water trying to exit matches the volume of the bottleneck a lot more closely, so you don't get much water bouncing back and it makes a much quicker exit.

Now imagine the two bottles are jhana meditators. The one on the left, would experience bodily shaking or trembling. The one on the right, would feel vibrations in his body, but not shaking. Now if continues to practice meditation correctly, over time the bottleneck would increase in size, and the the vibrations would decrease.




2.  Toilets that flush properly

Most toilets are horribly designed. They don't flush properly, and it's easy to clog. At one time, when I used to eat almond butter regularly, it had an unfortunate side effect of making my feces rubbery and powerful. I must have clogged hundreds of toilets that required plunger emergency assistance, and required thousands of double flushes to flush my waste. For my own home, I fixed the problem by getting a properly designed toilet. The key point is, the shape of the waterway is such that when the toilet is flushed, the water goes down in a smooth path, with no place to rebound. Similar to example 1 above with the bottle neck problem. 

Always a good opportunity to do some asubha:
Real Feces On White Background Stock Photo, Picture And Royalty ...

3. electromagnetic coils

Electric motors that spin, do so by means of electromagnets. Remember electromagnetic physics and the right hand rule? If you have a coil of wires wrapped up neatly in circular layers, it induces an magnetic wave perpendicular to it. Recently, my vitamix blender started to choke on the slow speeds. It sounded and felt like meditators with jhana constipation. This is due to the coils of wires getting old and melting together from the high heat appliances, and the waves are no longer being issued smoothly and working in sync. Some of the rogue waves start cancelling each other, like the toilet that won't flush properly from #2, and the bottleneck from #1. So the blender loses power, starts churning and groaning, shaking and tremlbing and not delivering smooth and even power. 

Similarly, a jhana meditator who doesn't keep up his meditation and physical health, his energy channels will start to decay and cause him to choke, sputter, tremble, vibrate and shake. 




Wednesday, April 22, 2020

Jhāna constipation: Why is there involuntary shaking and trembling of the body when I meditate?

In the EBT suttas, this is the only place I can recall involuntary body shaking being mentioned.

SN 54.7 Kappina: no shaking or trembling in body (or mind). shift to APSS terminology from just APS. Showing that 16 steps of APSS (breath meditation) can not be limited to satipatthana category, but is also samadhi.

What was the solution to the problem? Doing lots of breath meditation cured it eventually. 
Note that breath meditation can be done in any posture, especially while walking and sitting, and in this frequently occurring stock passage, you can see the monk from SN 54.7 was probably meditating 10 hours a day, and obviously celibate. Just my guess, the ordained monastic reasonably young and in reasonably good health, probably cured most of the grosser involuntary body shaking within 3 years. But remember it's a continuum, not an off/on switch. Where the movements may be attenuated where it's not visibly shaking on the outside, you can always feel the force of jhana churning inside the body unevenly, some parts vibrating with more pressure where your energy channels are not as clear and smooth. 

AN 3.16 Apaṇṇaka: Unmistaken: 3 qualities lead to destruction of āsavā's. 1. guarding sense doors, 2. eating proper way, 3. sleeping and waking properly. While awake, doing walking and sitting meditation, no specific amounts given, so it's implied that one needs to decide according to circumstance how long to do each, and how often to alternate. 

Whereas the monastics I'd guess can fix the grosser visible part of shaking within a few years following the Buddha's meditation schedule, a non celibate lay person meditating 1 hour a day, is unlikely to ever make a huge dent on getting rid of that problem.

🔗 involuntary movements in sitting meditation

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/02/faq-how-to-proceed-if-i-get.html

Jhāna constipation

First jhāna is actually really easy to do. The reason most people won't realize this, is because it won't feel like a proper first jhāna (see first jhana simile of AN 5.28 Pañcaṅgika­samādhi) until you've resolved involuntary body shaking and cleared some of the major energy channels in the body so the force pervades and moves energy around smoothly.


First and second jhana, if not properly felt,  is due to constriction and blockage in microcosmic orbit

First 45 seconds of video show the pathway of the microcosmic orbit in this 3D model.




Lots of beginners don't experience any body shaking at all. 

This doesn't mean they've already advanced past that stage and are first jhana capable and ready. The vast majority of beginners who aren't experiencing shaking, is because:
1) they're not sufficiently relaxed, mentally or physically
2) they expended so much PIE (precious internal energy) that powers the force of jhana from a profligate lifestyle of too much sex, partying, thinking worrying, and not enough sleeping, that their jhana battery is weak. You first need to charge up the jhana battery before the forces would be strong enough to cause bodily shaking. 

Lots of monastics don't experience jhāna (to their knowledge) because

They're following distorted and confused teachings on how the practice is actually done according to the EBT (early buddhist teachings). 


What does jhāna constipation feel like?

Until the microcosmic channel is open sufficiently and smooth, what you'll experience is involuntary bodily shaking, pains and discomfort only when you make the conscious effort to meditate.

In other words, the moment you stop doing 'meditation' and your mind goes back into 'normal' mode, those pains, discomforts, body shaking from the previous paragraph immediately cease.

Note to beginners: Just because you sit quietly, and you look like a statue of the buddha to the outside observer, doesn't mean you're 'meditating'. If your mind is still operating in normal mode of wild random thinking about irrelevant topics, you won't experience bodily shaking or the jhana battery charging up.

But just as the Buddha advised the monk in SN 54.7, if you live a celibate lifestyle, meditate 6-12 hours a day (correctly) and are persistent, then the jhana battery is going to charge up with enough force, and the blockages will clear and it will feel blissful as  AN 5.28  describes. If you only meditate 1 hour a day, then the journey will take a lot longer obviously. 


Not everyone experiences shaking

Just to clarify, not everyone is going to experience body trembling and shaking before first jhana. Depending on how waves of energy move in the body, it may not necessarily rebound and cause shaking as it does for many meditators.

But before one attains a good jhana, where the body feels calm and blissful, often with lots of brain pleasure chemicals,  they feel pain, or vibrations, bodily discomfort, or even just a vague bodily restlessness that makes you want to get up and not sit. You can't pin a reason or point to a cause, you just feel restless and don't want to sit and meditate due to strong bodily dis ease or discomfort, even though it's not a distinct or significant pain .


On a future update of this article,

I'll detail some of the specific symptoms I experienced over the course of about 10 years, before I could do a proper first jhana, just to give you an idea of the types of things that you might experience, and shouldn't be discouraged by. But everyone's health condition is different, and the blockages they develop vary greatly according to what they worry and obsess about and how that translates to blockages in various parts of the body. 

I'll also describe in more detail some very helpful non EBT methods that meditation masters have used to help fix constipation and speed up the process. 
zen - using loud noise and physical strikes (accupressure, tap and slap)
zen and mahayana - brisk walking, circle walking, shaolin kung fu and qigong
chanting - vocal vibrations dissolving chest tension

jhāna constipation understood by analogy and example


jhāna constipation (from the view of other meditative traditions)







Friday, April 17, 2020

Social Media for yogis who prefer noble silence

(article is work in progress)

Why would yogis who prefer solitude and isolation need social media?

What appears at first to be a paradoxical question has a very straightforward motivation. It's a rare person in the world who is willing to devote their life to spiritual practice. They don't need or have any desire for social media to engage in the mundane and inane, spiritually useless discourse.

Just as fire can destroy or be extraordinarily useful, social media for a yogi can actually be a very useful tool, if one has the discipline and spiritual maturity to use it wisely.  Technology allows us to reach rare individuals who are normally unreachable. To access, share great ideas on practice, and get hints and tips without having to traverse the world looking for  awakened yogis dwelling in isolated mountain caves.

Yogis who are experienced and have something of value to share, we should keep a journal of our best ideas. Lessons that came through the school of hard knocks, trial and error. Big mistakes are often more instructive than just confirming a good technique worked as it claimed.  Many things were valuable gems passed on from asking experienced yogis and teachers in person, or reading their biographies. Things, incredibly helpful practical tips and details that the suttas don't talk about. May those who come after us avoid mistakes we've made and get a huge lift from valuable tips and techniques, things we wish we knew when we started this journey.


That said...

Despite the useful properties of social media to access information from nearly impossible to reach yogis, I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of aspiring spiritual yogis, considering pros and cons, would be much better off going off grid, cut off completely from social media and 99% of any media. Most people just don't have the spiritual maturity to handle certain tools, as useful as they can be.

strengths and weaknesses of various platforms:


reddit Buddhist forums:
* + seems to have the largest audience by numbers
* + dropping in cut and paste html preserves hyperlinks, some rich media content
* + upvoting/liking propagates popular topics to top of list

dhammawheel Buddhist forums:
* + very diverse categorization, many niches and specialized topics.
* - very diverse categorization, very cumbersome to cross post
* - poor search engine to find specific topic and even your own old posts.

twitter:
* + limits people to about 200 characters, forces people to choose words carefully with compact meaning.
* + good for broadcasting information in the form of links to content.

facebook:
* + most popular social media platform
* - invasive of privacy, data mining to profit off of your invaded privacy, logging on your photos, videos, etc.
* - poor interface for detailed discussion of length topics

blogger:
* + free service, comes with gmail and google account
* + doesn't clutter and defile your blog pages with advertisements (unless you choose their revenue sharing option)
* + WYSIWYG cut and paste html right into your blog post, preserves html formatting, hyperlinks, rich media,  works great for copy and paste of pali + english sutta formated html tables from lucid24.org.

Thursday, April 16, 2020

KN Miln III,7,8 [84]: Which Sutta? Karma of unknowingly doing evil is worse than knowingly doing evil.

Mighty Iron Ball | Achisoft.net

Which Sutta(s) talk about this, hopefully in more detail than I can remember?

The subject is karmic consequence, and the law is surprisingly not intuitive.

In comparing two types of actions:

1) Not knowing that an action is evil, one commits an evil action.
2) Knowing that an action is evil, one commits an evil action.

What is not intuitive about that law, is you would think if one had wholesome and skillful intentions, before committing an action which is actually evil, that one is less culpable for the negative karmic consequence, in comparison to someone who knowingly commits and evil action even knowing fully well that the action is evil.

Which sutta(s) talk about this?

I don't remember if I'm stating the general form of the law quite correctly, what concrete examples were given in the sutta(s).


Answer in nutshell: 

KN Miln III,7,8 [84], simile of hot iron ball burning.
AN 6.63: Intention, monks, is what I call action.
KN Dhammapada 5.69:
So long as evil deed has yet to ripen, the fool mistakes it for honey. But [only] when that deed ripens, the fool comes to grief.
✴️MN 5 Anaṅgaṇa: un-blemished (🤖 14m) “monks, these four people are found in the world. What four? One person with a blemish doesn’t truly understand: ‘There is a blemish in me.’ But another person with a blemish does truly understand: ‘There is a blemish in me.’ One person without a blemish doesn’t truly understand: ‘There is no blemish in me.’ But another person without a blemish does truly understand: ‘There is no blemish in me.’ In this case, of the two persons with a blemish, the one who doesn’t understand is said to be worse, while the one who does understand is better. And of the two persons without a blemish, the one who doesn’t understand is said to be worse, while the one who does understand is better.”

KN Miln III,7,8 [84]


Jānant-ājānanta-pāpa-karaṇa-pañho
The question on doing evil knowingly or unknowingly.

Rājā āha "bhante nāgasena, yo jānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, kassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti?
The King said, "Bhante Nāgasena, he who does an evil action (pāpakamma) knowingly (jānanto), he who does an evil action unknowingly (ajānanto); which has the greater demerit (apuñña)."

Thero āha "yo kho, mahārāja, ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti.
The Elder said, "Majesty, he who does an evil action unknowingly, he has the greater demerit"

"Tena hi, bhante nāgasena, yo amhākaṃ rājaputto vā rājamahāmatto vā ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, taṃ mayaṃ diguṇaṃ daṇḍemā" ti?
"By this [reasoning], Bhante Nāgasena, should we punish our royal son or royal minister twofold (diguṇa) for doing an evil action unknowingly?"


"Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, mahārāja, tattaṃ ayoguḷaṃ ādittaṃ sampajjalitaṃ sajotibhūtaṃ eko jānanto gaṇheyya, eko ajānanto gaṇheyya, katamo balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā" ti.
"What do you think, Majesty, if someone were to knowingly grasp a glowing iron ball, aflame, burning, or to unknowingly grasp it, who would receive the worse burn?"

Yo kho, bhante, ajānanto gaṇheyya, so [tassa] balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā" ti.
"Bhante, the one who grasped it unknowingly, he would receive the worst burn."

"Evameva kho, mahārāja, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti.
"Just so, Majesty. he who does an evil action unknowingly, makes the most demerit."

"Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā" ti.
"You are skilled, Bhante Nāgasena".

Good Answers 

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/11054/doing-evil-knowingly-and-unknowingly

from RobM:

The source is Miln III,7,8 [84].

The other day, I happened to read a discussion of this passage in "Development in the Early Buddhist Concept of Kamma/Karma" by James Paul McDermott (page 113-114).

Based on what I have read, I do not believe that there is any specific quote in the Suttas / Vinaya that specifically supports this passage. The Suttas (AN 6.63) equate kamma with volition / intention and as McDermott explains, this was developed in the Abhidhamma (particularly the Kathāvatthu), further developed in Milindapañha and even further developed in the Abhidharmakośa. Of course, the commentaries developed the concept of kamma to a new level again (this was beyond the scope of McDermott's book).

One has to be careful with interpreting this parable of getting burned by the hot iron. The point is that a unskillful act done with wrong view will generate more weighty kamma... somebody who knows that the unskillful act is wrong will have less volition / intention when performing the unskillful act as compared to another person who sees absolutely nothing wrong with the unskillful act (i.e. accompanied by wrong view).

@Jayarava, I have admired some of your writings / posts. Thanks for prompting me to look deeper at this passage (I love to learn). Here is the passage in Pāḷi:

Rājā āha ‘‘bhante nāgasena, yo jānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, kassa bahutaraṃ apuñña’’nti? Thero āha ‘‘yo kho, mahārāja, ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuñña’’nti. ‘‘Tena hi, bhante nāgasena, yo amhākaṃ rājaputto vā rājamahāmatto vā ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, taṃ mayaṃ diguṇaṃ daṇḍemā’’ti? ‘‘Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, mahārāja, tattaṃ ayoguḷaṃ ādittaṃ sampajjalitaṃ sajotibhūtaṃ eko jānanto gaṇheyya, eko ajānanto gaṇheyya, katamo [kassa (ka.)] balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā’’ti. ‘‘Yo kho, bhante, ajānanto gaṇheyya, so [tassa (pī. ka.)] balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā’’ti. ‘‘Evameva kho, mahārāja, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuñña’’nti.

I believe that the key word is "ajānanto". In the translation above, it is rendered as "unknowingly". T.W. Rhys Davids translates this as "inadvertently". Bhikkhu Pesala translates this as "unconsciously". PED uses translations such as "unaware" and "unsuspecting".

I do not think "ajānanto" is equivalent to "ignorance" (delusion / moha). "Ajānanto" seems to be closer to "unwise attention", not seeing things as they truly are. For this reason, I think wrong view is a better handling, even though "micchādiṭṭhi" is not used in the text. @Jayarava, your knowledge of Pāḷi is far superior to mine, so I would be very willing to be corrected.

Oops, I just read your answer below, so let me add more...

I am an Abhidhamma teacher and this certainly colours my world view :-) Let me put an Abhidhamma spin on this to see if it helps. The Milindapañha was written after the Abhidhamma, so it is possible that in this passage, Nāgasena is attempting to clarify a doubt from the Abhidhamma.

Kamma comes from intention. The ethical quality of the kamma created comes from the roots (attachment / aversion / delusion for unwholesome, non-attachment / non-aversion / understanding for wholesome).

I do not believe that this passage from the Milindapañha is talking about the ethical quality of the kamma created.

I do believe that this passage from the Milindapañha is talking about the weightiness / intensity of the kamma created... and this is a different issue. The weightiness / intensity of the kamma created is a question of strength of volition.

In the case of unwholesome kamma-creating mental states, the strength of volition can depend on pleasant / neutral feeling (pleasant feeling contributes to stronger volition), prompted / spontaneous (spontaneous contributes to stronger volition) and associated / disassociated with wrong view (associated with wrong view contributes to stronger volition). I believe that this passage from the Milindapañha is talking about the third factor; "associated / disassociated with wrong view".



from Jayarava: 

With regard to karma one of the most cited Pāli passages is:

Cetanāhaṃ bhakkhave kammaṃ vadāmi - AN 6.63

Intention, monks, is what I call action.

In other words, only intentional actions are karma. On the other hand Jains considered that all actions whatever were karmic. They developed the idea that inactivity was the best religious practice, taking it as far as starving themselves to death.

This passage from Miln seems to contradict this important principle. It is very curious. I will have to give this a good deal more thought.

And I think it's fair to say that just because someone can come up with the plausible reading of this text by changing the meaning of the words somewhat, doesn't mean that this is what was intended. A more sound procedure is to exhaust the possibilities of the text itself, then look for a traditional commentary, before starting to make ad hoc assumptions that simply fit a desired interpretation. One always has to allow that the text simply does not make sense.

~

In checking the Pāḷi passage (Miln 84) (in the Burmese 6th council Ed.) I had to translate it anyway, So I'll include my translation for reference. If there are any supplementary questions about the translation, leave a comment, and I'll edit this answer to try to explain.

Jānantājānantapāpakaraṇapañho
The question on doing evil knowingly or unknowingly.

Rājā āha "bhante nāgasena, yo jānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, kassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti?
The King said, "Bhante Nāgasena, he who does an evil action (pāpakamma) knowingly (jānanto), he who does an evil action unknowingly (ajānanto); which has the greater demerit (apuñña)."

Thero āha "yo kho, mahārāja, ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti.
The Elder said, "Majesty, he who does an evil action unknowingly, he has the greater demerit"

"Tena hi, bhante nāgasena, yo amhākaṃ rājaputto vā rājamahāmatto vā ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, taṃ mayaṃ diguṇaṃ daṇḍemā" ti?
"By this [reasoning], Bhante Nāgasena, should we punish our royal son or royal minister twofold (diguṇa) for doing an evil action unknowingly?"

"Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, mahārāja, tattaṃ ayoguḷaṃ ādittaṃ sampajjalitaṃ sajotibhūtaṃ eko jānanto gaṇheyya, eko ajānanto gaṇheyya, katamo balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā" ti.
"What do you think, Majesty, if someone were to knowingly grasp a glowing iron ball, aflame, burning, or to unknowingly grasp it, who would receive the worse burn?"

Yo kho, bhante, ajānanto gaṇheyya, so [tassa] balavataraṃ ḍayheyyā" ti.
"Bhante, the one who grasped it unknowingly, he would receive the worst burn."

"Evameva kho, mahārāja, yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti, tassa bahutaraṃ apuññan" ti.
"Just so, Majesty. he who does an evil action unknowingly, makes the most demerit."

"Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā" ti.
"You are skilled, Bhante Nāgasena".

There is a lot here to digest. If Nāgasena is correct, why does Milinda say he should punish members of the royal court twofold (diguṇa)? I don't see the logic of this.

Does the analogy even work? Is it true that grasping a burning iron ball on purpose would mean one would be burned less? Who would grasp a burning hot iron ball on purpose anyway?

This is one of the most bizarre pieces of Pāḷi prose I've ever looked at!

I don't see how one can separate intention and understanding. Jānanto is just a very broad word for "knowing". So we must interpret yo ajānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti as "does an evil action without knowing that he does evil" and yo jānanto pāpakammaṃ karoti "does an evil action knowing that he does evil". The one who acts with knowing clearly must incur the greater consequences, but this text reverses the natural order. On face value it simply does not make sense.

It has been suggested by @RobM that this passage is referring not to the ethical quality of the action (and therefore of the vipāka it will generate), but to weightiness of the kamma. In fact I do not see any meaningful separation of these, since it is the ethical quality of an action that determines how weighty it is. Furthermore the passage itself is talking about who accrues the most apuñña or demerit. How can one separate puñña/apuñña from the "ethical quality of the action that generates it? An action generates puñña/apuñña in precise proportion to the kusala/akusala of the intention (cetanā) behind it. What's more the passage does not contain any word implying weightiness (garu, garutara, garutā etc). So although @RobM has produced a reading that is consistent with his understanding (and therefore pleasing), it is unrelated to the words he is attempting to interpret. This is an unsound exegetical methodology.

The exegetical strategy of all those answers so far which claim to understand this passage (which I do not) is that the words jānanto/ajānanto mean something other than what they mean. Either ajānanto means micchādiṭṭhi or it means garutā (weightiness) or something else that makes the passage make simple sense. In order to establish such a reading the person proposing it would need to show that this esoteric substitution was a regular feature of either the Milindapañha or the Pāḷi literature as a whole. One of the attractions of the Pāḷi literature is that on the whole it is quite straightforward. Metaphors and similes are occasionally reified by later tradition, but they stand out in the texts. So, on the face of it, an esoteric reading, where the text says one thing but means another would require some strong evidential support in the form of many quotations of similar substitutions. I don't see any evidence to date. So far I have not understood this text, but I don't believe that anyone else has either. "Don't know" must always be a possible, if unsatisfactory solution to any problem. And if one does not know then there is no shame in saying so. To over-ride unknowing and superimpose something familiar on a text to force it into a familiar pattern is not a good practice. At best it is a form of self-deception.



from Reddit



rom loggedinreddituser2 via /r/theravada sent 
Unkowingly doing evil is doing evil under the spell of delusion, a double whammy so to say. This isn't a question of intention, because the intention remains the same even in the presence of delusion. To see how this is possible, first consider that killing an animal out of anger not knowing it is morally wrong is worse than killing it out of anger being perfectly aware of how wrong it is. Here the delusion adds to the unwholesomeness of the action, since it as well as anger is one of the three unwholesome roots. On the other hand, killing an animal by mistake is not the same as unkowingly doing evil, and will have no karmic effect in itself (subsequent thoughts and actions might very well have severe karmic effects however).
The lack of knowledge refers to lack of knowledge in dhamma.
Thus, intentions are primary with regard to the evil or good quality of an action. The presence of delusion is only secondary, and has a karmic effect in so far as the intention is there, or rather, to the extent that intention is present.


from DiamondNgXZ via /r/Buddhism sent 
It should be in the Abhidhamma, although I dunno if the sutta has it too.
The knowledge here implies kamma knowledge.So if a person say knows that stealing is bad, will give bad results, they do the stealing with such knowledge. Knowing that it is bad, they do not steal too much, and might have some amount of guilt in the action. Eventually, the guilt may drive them to renounce the bad action and turn good.
Compare this with another person who didn't know that stealing is bad. Say a super rich spoiled kid. He is used to taking what he wants even without permission, he steals anyway he can and due to being rich, the law can hardly touch him. He thinks there's no bad consequences of stealing, thus continue to simply take what he likes from the less rich and powerful, even if he didn't need it. This ends up with him having a lot more bad kamma due to no knowledge of kamma to stop him.
Example 2:
Killing animals.
Say 2 slaughterhouse workers. One of them knows about kamma, the other doesn't and loves killing. The one who knows about kamma eventually feel that enough is enough, he couldn't bear the thought of him being reborn as the animals he is now killing to be killed for many lifetimes. He quit his job. The other one just continue killing animals, didn't see anything wrong with it. Saying that: blame the meat eaters, not me, someone's going to kill the animals as long as people are willing to buy the meat. So I am blameless in doing the dirty work for them.
The one who continues killing eventually got a lot more bad kamma than the one who knows about kamma and stopped.


References

(EBT): karma and rebirth ♾️👶   🔬details

Mahayana Sutra with many detailed examples of karmic consequences, rebirth in pure land: Note many of the examples in this sutra contradict EBT.