tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3363934869999927342024-03-28T20:29:34.532-07:00notes on the Dhammafrankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.comBlogger1096125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-16296699535239920402024-03-26T05:03:00.000-07:002024-03-26T05:16:01.957-07:00DWTD☸: Seeing dhamma (phenomena) instead of seeing ☸Dhamma as it truly is every moment leads to joyless boredom<a href="file:///C:/Users/my4nt/OneDrive/lucid24/suttas/index.html" style="font-size: 18px;"><abbr title="4 noble truths, Lucid24.org home page">4👑☸</abbr></a><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> → </span><a href="file:///C:/Users/my4nt/OneDrive/lucid24/suttas/tped/index.html" style="font-size: 18px;"><abbr title="EBT wikipedia, also serves as lucid24.org website index">EBpedia📚</abbr></a><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> → </span><b style="font-size: 18px;"><a href="file:///C:/Users/my4nt/OneDrive/lucid24/suttas/tped/d/dwtd/index.html"><abbr title="Don't wag the Dharma">DWTD☸</abbr></a></b><div><span style="font-size: 18px;"><b><br /></b></span> <h1 style="text-align: left;">Exhibit A from this yogi living in a monastery</h1><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=758484#p758484">Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation Report</a> by <a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19090">Kidet0</a> » Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:12 pm<br /><b><i>A meditator reported the following. </i></b><div><b><i>What could they be going through or what could be the explanation for it?</i></b><br /><br /><br /></div><div><div>After about 2 months of practicing both walking and sitting meditation (insight meditation of the observation of arising and vanishing of phenomena), </div><div>it seems that I have entered a mental state where there is just sheer boredom.</div><div> In the first few weeks, there were periods of joy and rapture at the noticing of phenomena arising and vanishing.</div><div> The mere seeing of the impermanent nature of phenomena caused deep contentment and tranquility to arise in the mind.</div><div> I was enthusiastic about being delivered from defilements and I thought that this newfound power of observation will continue on until all defilements have been destroyed.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>Now, however, I just sit like a vegetable for long periods of time and watch the same spectacle unfolding without caring much about it.</div><div> It's no longer interesting to investigate the arising and vanishing.</div><div> The mind has become dull, the body doesn't want to eat and there's aversion towards food, and interacting with fellow yogis at the monastery is bothersome to me.</div><div> While other people seem to be happily living out each day, I'm almost never concerned about anything.</div><div> I avoid conversation and will only speak the bare minimum enough to function properly </div><div> since I live in a community with group activities like pindapāta, communal work, chantings, and Dhamma discussions.</div><div> Other than that, I prefer to keep to myself.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>Small things that disrupt my mental calmness tend to cause me annoyance </div><div>e.g. people coughing or farting during group meditation, </div><div>someone starting to sweep 5 minutes before it's officially duty time, someone saying good morning to me... simple things of that nature.</div><div> Initially, these weren't things I'd get flustered about.</div><div> They were objects of meditation but now they seem like they disrupt my inner quietude.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>The boredom that the seemingly uninteresting meditation has brought about is causing people to inquire whether I'm doing okay because I always look sad and dejected.</div><div> The people who "check on me" are only a few who I consider to be nosy anyways because they don't understand that they shouldn't be concerned with the meditation progress of other yogis unless they are the meditation teacher.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>I'm neither experiencing joy nor sorrow.</div><div> There's neither happiness nor sadness.</div><div> No motivation at all.</div><div> During meditation, there's no desire to cultivate concentration.</div><div> But even when a little bit of it comes about, the mind somehow automatically starts noticing the arising and vanishing of phenomena again.</div><div> Hearing - abandoning the sound;</div><div> thinking - abandoning the thought;</div><div> hearing again - abandoning the sound again;</div><div> knowing again - abandoning again.</div><div> When the mind lets go of a sense object, it just reverts to that bare awareness that is plain boring with nothing happening.</div><div> Will I be seeing this rising and vanishing forever?</div><div> When does it end?</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>My days are spent creeping around like a zombie and doing things ultra slowly which I imagine puts people off.</div><div> I try to maintain the awareness of bodily movements in the present but it becomes distasteful quickly as, </div><div> yet again, there appears to be nothing but the arising and vanishing of mental and physical phenomena without rhyme or reason.</div><div> Gazing downwards without interest in my surroundings is far more desirable than looking about here and there saying hello to people.</div><div> I'm afraid I'm coming across as snobbish.</div><div> The problem is I can't describe my current situation to other yogis because they wouldn't understand.</div><div> I wouldn't even know where to begin.</div><div> They like to walk in groups with friendly chit-chat, giggling, and socializing so I'd rather not strike up a conversation with them.</div><div><br /></div></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">Solution to above problem </h1><div>Don't wag the Dhamma. <span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> </span><b style="font-size: 18px;"><a href="file:///C:/Users/my4nt/OneDrive/lucid24/suttas/tped/d/dwtd/index.html"><abbr title="Don't wag the Dharma">DWTD☸</abbr></a></b></div><div>There was joy in the practice (of watching phenomena rise and pass) because you thought that would be the answer to eradicating all suffering.</div><div>The boredom, sadness, and joylessness that followed was due to watching dhamma without a firm (conventional intellectual) understanding of dhamma's subservience to Dhamma.</div><div>You're letting the dhamma wag the Dhamma.</div><div><br /></div><div>With a firm understanding of core Dharma principles, </div><div>you would watch for how delight, dissatisfaction arise through the six sense doors, and are wholly dependent on a sense of identity and ownership you falsely attribute to objects in the world and imaginary ideas in your minds.</div><div><br /></div><div>But if you don't develop jhānic quality of lucidity, you won't have the clarity of vision, the reflexes and ability to react, see, and understand the process of how suffering happens in real time.</div><div><br /></div><div>Without jhānic quality of lucidity, you can only reflect back on large units of time, for example hours, days, weeks, </div><div>and with intellectual analysis discern a general pattern of how ignorance and craving caused much of the suffering in your life, </div><div>but seemingly without the tools and weapons to actually fight back and catch your defilements in real time to destroy, maim, or injure them so your actual day to day dukkha is materially diminished.</div><div>Jhāna is the sword of samādhi, the weapon of Dhamma lethal enough to inflict mortal wounds on the defilements.</div><div><br /></div><div>Sati ("mindfulness") is not "bare awareness". </div><div>The fact you were taught that way, is why you, in your own words, walk around like a zombie sometimes. </div><div><br /></div><div>More on choiceless awareness zombies here:</div><div><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2019/06/ajahn-sucitto-says-it-may-be-correct-to.html" style="color: #8a2e2e; text-decoration-line: none;">Ajahn Sucitto says, "It may be correct to say that mindfulness is non-judgemental"</a></h3></div><div><br /></div><div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><h2 style="color: #828282; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.5em 0px; position: relative; text-transform: uppercase;">DO YOU WANT A JUDGMENTAL GATEKEEPER FOR SATI</h2><br /><img alt="Image result for judge dredd" src="https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQItQ_7joRt2bBNZM_Yx6Au8mbTvnqxk-7uNzFd_j8zq0Rkd7FYNA" /></div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br /></div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br /></div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><h3 style="margin: 0px; position: relative;">Or a sati that is a present moment choiceless awareness zombie?</h3></div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=336393486999992734" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; color: #8a2e2e; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img alt="Image result for zombie" border="0" 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" style="border: none; position: relative;" /></a></div><div class="vk_gy" style="background-color: white; color: #878787; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">You think he's going to do a good job of keeping the defilements from waltzing through the gate?<br /></div></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" /><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"></span><img alt="elephant and bodhi tree" hspace="12" src="https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/7sati/sati-etree.jpg" style="background-color: white; float: left; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; height: 200px; width: 200px;" /><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sn/sn47/sn47-002/index.html#s2" style="background-color: white; color: #8a2e2e; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration-line: none;">SN 47.2</a><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"> defines 'sati' (</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/m/mindful/index.html" style="background-color: white; color: #8a2e2e; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration-line: none;">mindfulness </a><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">) as doing this all the time (</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/s/samadhi/smd247/index.html" style="background-color: white; color: #8a2e2e; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-decoration-line: none;">24/7 samādhi </a><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">):</span><table style="background-color: white; color: black; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;"><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kāye kāyā-(a)nu-passī viharati</div></td><td>He lives continuously seeing the body as a body [as it truly is].</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">vedanāsu vedanā-(a)nu-passī viharati</div></td><td>He lives continuously seeing sensations as sensations [as it truly is].</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">citte cittā-(a)nu-passī viharati</div></td><td>He lives continuously seeing a mind as a mind [as it truly is].</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">dhammesu dhammā-(a)nu-passī viharati</div></td><td>He lives continuously seeing ☸Dharma as ☸Dharma [as it truly is].</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(… elided refrain from each way…)</div></td><td>[in each of the 4 ways of remembering]:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">ātāpī sampajāno satimā,</div></td><td>he is ardent 🏹, he has lucid discerning 👁, he remembers 🐘 [to apply relevant ☸Dharma].</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;</div></td><td>he should remove greed and distress regarding the world.</td></tr></tbody></table><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><h1 style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><br /></h1><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><div dir="LTR" id="flink-0" lang="en-US" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><h1 id="flink-4" style="font-family: Arial; margin: 0px; position: relative;">SN 56.1 Samādhi</h1><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div dir="LTR" id="flink-1" lang="en-US" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><h2 id="flink-5" style="color: #828282; font-family: Arial; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0.5em 0px; position: relative; text-transform: uppercase;">UNDISTRACTIBLE-LUCIDITY</h2><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. Samādhisutta</div></td><td>1. undistractible-lucidity</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Sāvatthi-nidānaṃ.</div></td><td>At Sāvatthī. (this) originates</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">… pe …</div></td><td>…</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">“Samādhiṃ, bhikkhave, bhāvetha.</div></td><td>“undistractible-lucidity, monks: (you) must-develop (that).</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Samāhito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu</div></td><td>{for a monk} (who has become)-undistractible-&-lucid,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti.</div></td><td>[reality] as-it-actually-has-become, (he) discerns.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kiñ-ca yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti?</div></td><td>And-what (is the) [reality] as-it-actually-has-become, (which he) discerns?</td></tr></tbody></table><h3 id="flink-6" style="font-family: Arial; margin: 0px; position: relative;">(Without samādhi, you can’t fully penetrate 4nt noble truths)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘Idaṃ dukkhan’ti</div></td><td>(4nt #1) ‘This is pain-&-suffering’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti,</div></td><td>as-it-actually-has-become; (he) discerns (that).</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘ayaṃ dukkha-samudayo’ti</div></td><td>(4nt #2) ‘This is pain-&-suffering's-- origination’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti,</div></td><td>as-it-actually-has-become; (he) discerns (that).</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘ayaṃ dukkha-nirodho’ti</div></td><td>(4nt #3) ‘This is pain-&-suffering's-- cessation’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti,</div></td><td>as-it-actually-has-become; (he) discerns (that).</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘ayaṃ dukkha-nirodha-gāminī paṭipadā’ti</div></td><td>(4nt #4) ‘This is pain-&-suffering's--cessation-way-of-practice’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā-bhūtaṃ pajānāti.</div></td><td>as-it-actually-has-become; (he) discerns (that).</td></tr></tbody></table></div><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; font-size: 14.85px;">Again, same as satipatthana formula, just in terms of dukkha instead of "body, sensations,..." which is also part of 5uk aggregates.</span><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div></div><div><br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-60962498533956145292024-03-15T03:46:00.000-07:002024-03-15T03:55:45.511-07:00Advice to younger meditators on jhāna, sex, porn, masturbation<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><h1 style="text-align: left;">Someone asked:</h1><br /><a href="https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/50392/is-porn-considered-harmful-sexual-activity">Is porn considered harmful sexual.activity?</a><br /><br />I don't have a sex life because I don't have a partner and I don't wish to engage in casual sex so I use porn to quench the biological urge to orgasm. I can't see that's it's harmful because nobody is being forced into it. The actors are all paid well and claim to enjoy it etc. The only harm I can see is that it's so accessible these days on smart devices and so children may access it but I believe that this is the parents responsibility to not allow unsupervised use of devices etc. Views?<div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">Frankk response:</h1><div><div>In another thread, you asked about pleasant sensations and jhāna.</div><div> I'm guessing you're young, so here's some important advice you won't get from suttas </div><div> if you're serious about jhāna.</div><div> (since monastics are already celibate by rule) </div><div> If you want to attain stable and higher jhānas, </div><div> celibacy and noble silence to the best of your ability are the feedstock and prerequiste to that.</div><div> </div><div> The jhānas and other samādhi attainments are not just a mental transformation but a physical transformation as well.</div><div> Reproduction is one of the most energetically intensive operations a body can do.</div><div> You don't have enough energy to indulge in sexual activity, sensual pleasures, </div><div> and also attain higher jhānas.</div><div> It's as if you only have 1 million dollars to last your whole life, </div><div> and stable jhāna costs 600k$,</div><div> and going to the whore house, or having ethical sex with your girlfriend,</div><div>or watching porn costs 20k$ each pop.</div><div> Those 20k$ pops don't seem like much when you're young and still have close to a million dollars, </div><div> but if you don't heed this valuable advice and you're older it will be too late to change your mind.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>If you follow 5 precepts and stay with moderate level of ethical sexual activity and sensual pleasures, </div><div>most likely that will put your jhāna ceiling at a mediocre first jhāna and low quality second jhāna.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>If you watch a lot of porn and indulge in a lot of sexual activity and sensual pleasures like most lay people,</div><div>you're going to experience the typical problems they do.</div><div>Anxiety, depression, loss of memory, poor cognitive function, </div><div>poor immune system, head aches, body aches, irritability, etc.</div><div><br /></div><div>Sexual urges are difficult when you're young.</div><div> Even highly attained spiritual beings find it difficult looking back, see Ajahn Chah's biography for example.</div><div> If I had things to do over and be young again, the way I would deal with urges is have intensive physical exercise as an outlet when urges are especially difficult.</div><div><br /></div><div>If you jog for several miles for example, the energy in your body is going to circulate and when your mind is off of sex for a while, and the body tired from the exercise, then you'll have some temporary relief.</div><div><br /></div><div>The main key though is to focus the mind on the downsides of sexual activity and sensual pleasure rather than on the subha nimitta (attractive and alluring elements of the opposite sex and sensual pleasures).</div><div><br /></div><div>The key to long term success is once you truly see and understand the insatiability, unreliability, and lack of satisfaction in sex and sensual pleasures, you'll gradually lose interest in that.</div><div>Just as most people understand how being addicted to heroin and alcohol is a losing proposition.</div><div>Once you can file away porn and sexual activity in that same category, you'll not be attracted to it the way most people can be trained not to be attracted to heroin.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-10799790491008833682024-03-09T14:56:00.000-08:002024-03-09T15:41:55.306-08:00AN 4.41 commentaries with chatGPT AI pali to english translation<p>How's the AI translation quality? What are the most major errors?</p><p><br /></p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">AN 4.41 Samādhi-bhāvanā: Developing undistractible-lucidity [concurrently within 4 jhānas]</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2024 <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/f/flipt/index.html#sp-fluent">SP-FLUENT </a>translation by <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bfrn">frankk </a>)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/arv/index.html#12" style="font-size: 16px;">Arv <sup>12</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#718" style="font-size: 16px;">SA <sup>718</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.29" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.29</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn111/index.html#111" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>111</sup></a><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - AN 4.41 Samādhi-bhāvanā: Developing undistractible-lucidity [concurrently within 4 jhānas]</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41.4.1" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41.4.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> – (1. STED </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/4j/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">4j🌕 </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">Four Jhānas for pleasant abiding now)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41.4.2" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41.4.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> – (2. </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/asnd/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">ASND 🌕🌟 </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">luminosity perception → knowledge and vision)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41.4.3" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41.4.3</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> – (3. For </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/7sati/insight/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">S&S🐘💭 </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">rememberfulness & lucid-discerning)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41.4.4" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41.4.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> – (4. For destroying </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/asava/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">Āsava </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">s)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41.5" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41.5</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> – (verse from </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-snp/single/index.html#5.4" style="font-size: 16px;">KN Snp <sup>5.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> Puṇṇaka)</span></p><p><br /></p><h1>Aṭṭhakathā : commentary on root text</h1><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">AN 4.41 samādhi-bhāvanā-sutta-vaṇṇanā</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2024 translation by chatGPT)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Aṅguttara Nikāya,</div></td><td>Aṅguttara Nikāya,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">catukkanipāta-aṭṭhakathā,</div></td><td>Book of the Fours - Commentary,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ,</div></td><td>Chapter 1,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">5. rohitassavaggo n,</div></td><td>Section 5: The Rohitassa Chapter</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. samādhibhāvanāsuttavaṇṇanā</div></td><td>Discourse on Cultivation of Concentration</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ 41. pañcamassa paṭhame ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāyāti dibbacakkhuñāṇadassanassa paṭilābhāya.</div></td><td>♦ 41. On the First Watch of the Fifth Night - For the Attainment of Knowledge and Vision - The Attainment of the Knowledge of the Divine Eye</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">divāsaññaṃ adhiṭṭhātīti divāti evaṃ saññaṃ adhiṭṭhāti.</div></td><td>The monk establishes the perception of day, perceiving it as day.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā divā tathā rattinti yathā divā ālokasaññā manasi katā,</div></td><td>Just as it is day, so too he perceives night, establishing the perception of light within his mind.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">tatheva taṃ rattimpi manasi karoti.</div></td><td>He perceives the night just as it is day.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">dutiyapadepi eseva nayo.</div></td><td>This is the second method.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">sappabhāsanti dibbacakkhuñāṇobhāsena sahobhāsaṃ.</div></td><td>By the illumination of the divine eye, which is accompanied by the knowledge and vision of the divine eye, he sees visible forms with their corruptions, even though they are similar to the light of the divine eye.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kiñcāpi ālokasadisaṃ kataṃ, attho panettha na evaṃ sallakkhetabbo.</div></td><td>Although it is similar to the light, the meaning should not be interpreted in this way.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">dibbacakkhuñāṇāloko hi idhādhippeto.</div></td><td>The light of the divine eye is simply described here.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ viditāti pākaṭā hutvā.</div></td><td>♦ "He perceives" - After making it clear.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kathaṃ pana vedanā viditā uppajjanti,</div></td><td>Now, how do feelings arise as perceived?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchantīti?</div></td><td>How do they cease to be perceived?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">idha bhikkhu vatthuṃ pariggaṇhāti, ārammaṇaṃ pariggaṇhāti.</div></td><td>Here, a monk comprehends an object, he grasps a sense object.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">tassa pariggahitavatthārammaṇatāya tā vedanā</div></td><td>Due to grasping at a sense object, feelings arise, are sustained, and cease in this way:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">“evaṃ uppajjitvā evaṃ ṭhatvā evaṃ nirujjhantī”ti viditā uppajjanti, viditā tiṭṭhanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti nāma.</div></td><td>"Having arisen in this way, ceasing in this way, and remaining in this way."</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">saññāvitakkesupi eseva nayo.</div></td><td>This is the same method for perceptions and thoughts.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ udayabbayānupassīti udayañca vayañca passanto.</div></td><td>♦ "Being mindful of the rise and fall" - He is observing the rise and fall.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">iti rūpanti</div></td><td>Thus, regarding form:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">evaṃ rūpaṃ ettakaṃ rūpaṃ na ito paraṃ rūpaṃ atthīti.</div></td><td>"Thus, this form is such, it is this much, not other than this, it is thus beyond this form."</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">iti rūpassa samudayoti evaṃ rūpassa uppādo.</div></td><td>Thus, there is the arising of form.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">atthaṅgamoti pana bhedo adhippeto.</div></td><td>And the cessation, on the other hand, is understood separately.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">vedanādīsupi eseva nayo.</div></td><td>The same method applies to feelings and others.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">idañca pana metaṃ, bhikkhave, sandhāya bhāsitanti, bhikkhave, yaṃ mayā etaṃ puṇṇakapañhe</div></td><td>And regarding this, monks, I say, considering what I have said in the Punnakapañha,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">“saṅkhāya lokasmin”tiādi bhāsitaṃ,</div></td><td>"Analyzing the world," etc.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">taṃ idaṃ phalasamāpattiṃ sandhāya bhāsitanti attho.</div></td><td>, the meaning of this discourse on fruition attainment is explained.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ tattha saṅkhāyāti ñāṇena jānitvā.</div></td><td>♦ "He calculates" - Knowing by wisdom.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">lokasminti sattaloke.</div></td><td>"In the world" - in the seven planes of existence.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">paroparānīti uccāvacāni uttamādhamāni.</div></td><td>"Above and below" - the highest and lowest.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">iñjitanti calitaṃ.</div></td><td>"They tremble" - They waver.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">natthi kuhiñci loketi lokasmiṃ katthaci ekakkhandhepi ekāyatanepi ekadhātuyāpi ekārammaṇepi natthi.</div></td><td>"There is nothing" - there is no place in this world, even in a single aggregate, a single sense-sphere, a single element, or a single sense object, where there is no trembling.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">santoti paccanīkakilesavūpasamena santo.</div></td><td>"They are peaceful" - They are tranquil.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">vidhūmoti kodhadhūmena vigatadhūmo.</div></td><td>"Smokeless" - Free from the smoke of defilements.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">evamettha suttante maggekaggatampi kathetvā gāthāya phalasamāpattiyeva kathitāti.</div></td><td>Thus, monks, having elaborated on the pathway in this discourse, and having spoken even in verses, it is indeed the discourse on fruition attainment.</td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="font-family: Arial;">AN Tīkā: sub commentary</h1><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">4.41 – AN 4.41 samādhi-bhāvanā-sutta-vaṇṇanā</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2024 translation by chatGPT)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Aṅguttara Nikāya,</div></td><td>Anguttara Nikaya,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Catukkanipāta-ṭīkā,</div></td><td>Commentary on the Book of the Fours,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. Paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ,</div></td><td>Chapter 1: The First Fifty,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">5. Rohitassavaggo,</div></td><td>Section 5: The Rohitassa Chapter,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. Samādhibhāvanāsuttavaṇṇanā</div></td><td>Discourse on the Development of Concentration</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ 41. Pañcamassa paṭhame diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāyāti</div></td><td>♦ 41. For the Attainment of the Blissful Dwelling in the Present Life -</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">imasmiṃyeva attabhāve sukhavihāratthāya, nikkilesatāya nirāmisena sukhena viharaṇatthāyāti attho.</div></td><td>The purpose here is for dwelling happily in this very existence, free from defilements, with unworldly bliss, for the attainment of happiness.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iminā cattāri phalasamāpattijjhānāni khīṇāsavassa āsavakkhayādhigamato aparabhāge adhigatarūpārūpajjhānāni ca kathitāni.</div></td><td>Here, the four attainments of fruition, which are attained through the cessation of the pollutants, are explained.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Dibbacakkhuñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāyāti</div></td><td>For the attainment of the Knowledge and Vision of the Divine Eye -</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">dibbacakkhuñāṇappaṭilābhatthāya.</div></td><td>For the attainment of the knowledge of the divine eye,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Dibbacakkhuñāṇañhi rūpagatassa dibbassa itarassa ca dassanaṭṭhena idha ‘‘ñāṇadassanan’ti adhippetaṃ.</div></td><td>which is the seeing of visible forms both divine and human, here referred to as "knowledge and vision."</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ālokasaññaṃ manasi karotīti divā vā rattiṃ vā</div></td><td>When he perceives daylight in his mind, he also perceives night in the same way.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">sūriyadīpacandamaṇiukkāvijjulatādīnaṃ āloko divā rattiñca upaladdho,</div></td><td>Just as he perceives daylight, so too he perceives night.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathāladdhavaseneva ālokaṃ manasi karoti citte ṭhapeti, tathā ca naṃ manasi karoti,</div></td><td>When the light is seen just like daylight, he establishes it in his mind as if it were daylight, and so he does not perceive it.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathāssa subhāvitālokakasiṇassa viya kasiṇāloko</div></td><td>Just as the light of a well-developed light disc is present as he wishes,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathicchakaṃ yāvadicchakañca so āloko rattiyaṃ upatiṭṭhati,</div></td><td>so too this light remains present at night,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yena tattha divāsaññaṃ ṭhapeti, divā viya vigatathinamiddho hoti.</div></td><td>until he establishes daylight there, and it is as if he has overcome drowsiness during the day.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tenāha ‘‘yathā divā tathā rattin’ ’ti.</div></td><td>Hence, he says, "Just as it is day, so too it is night."</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Yathā divā ālokasaññā manasi katā, tatheva naṃ rattimpi manasi karotīti</div></td><td>♦ Just as he perceives daylight in his mind, so too he does not perceive it at night;</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">yathā divā diṭṭho āloko, tatheva taṃ rattiṃ manasi karoti.</div></td><td>just as he sees daylight, so too he perceives night.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Dutiyapadeti ‘‘yathā rattiṃ tathā divā’ti imasmiṃ vākye.</div></td><td>In the second line, "just as it is night, so too it is day," this is the meaning.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Esa nayoti</div></td><td>"This is the way" -</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">iminā yathā rattiyaṃ candālokādi āloko diṭṭho, evameva rattiṃ diṭṭhākāreneva divā taṃ ālokaṃ manasi karoti citte ṭhapetīti</div></td><td>Here, the meaning of "just as it is night, so too it is day" is further explained by saying that just as light, such as moonlight, is seen during the night, so too, the light is established in the mind as if it were daylight.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">imamatthaṃ atidisati.</div></td><td>This is the explanation given in detail.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iti vivaṭena cetasāti evaṃ apihitena cittena, thinamiddhāpidhānena apihitacittenāti vuttaṃ hoti.</div></td><td>Thus, it is stated that it is with a mind that is clearly directed, with a mind that is completely absorbed, and with a mind that is completely absorbed even in overcoming drowsiness.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Apariyonaddhenāti samantato anaddhena asañchāditena.</div></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kiñcāpītiādinā attanā vuttamevatthaṃ samattheti.</div></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ālokasadisaṃ kataṃ ‘‘yathā divā tathā rattin’tiādinā.</div></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Sattaṭṭhānikassāti ‘‘abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī hotī’tiādinā (dī. ni. 1.214; 2.376; ma. ni. 1.109) vuttassa sattaṭṭhānikassa satisampajaññassa atthāya.</div></td><td>♦ "Being mindful in going forward and coming back" - It refers to being mindful and aware when going forward and coming back (Dīgha Nikāya 1.214; 2.376; Majjhima Nikāya 1.109) for the purpose of establishing mindfulness and clear comprehension.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Pariggahitavatthārammaṇatāyāti vatthuno ārammaṇassa ca yāthāvato viditabhāvena.</div></td><td>"Grasping the base" - grasping the object and the sense base with full knowledge.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Yathā hi sappaṃ pariyesantena tassa āsaye vidite sopi vidito gahito eva ca hoti mantāgadabalena tassa gahaṇassa sukarattā, evaṃ vedanāya āsayabhūte vatthumhi ārammaṇe ca vidite ādikammikassapi vedanā viditā gahitā eva hoti salakkhaṇato sāmaññalakkhaṇato ca tassā gahaṇassa sukarattā.</div></td><td>Just as someone grasps a branch after searching for it, having found it, it is also grasped.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Pageva pariññātavatthukassa khīṇāsavassa.</div></td><td>Similarly, just as the mind is aware of feelings when the object and the sense base are known, the feelings are known and grasped, as easy to grasp as a branch, both directly and indirectly, and the grasping is easy.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tassa hi uppādakkhaṇepi ṭhitikkhaṇepi bhaṅgakkhaṇepi vedanā viditā pākaṭā honti ‘‘tā vedanā evaṃ uppajjitvā’tiādinā.</div></td><td>This is the grasp of one who has fully understood the object.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Na kevalañca vedanā eva, idha vuttā saññādayopi avuttā cetanādayopi viditāva uppajjanti ceva tiṭṭhanti ca nirujjhanti ca.</div></td><td>For him, feelings arise, persist, and cease, clearly manifested as, "These feelings arise in this way."</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Nidassanamattañhetaṃ, yadidaṃ pāḷiyaṃ vedanāsaññāvitakkaggahaṇaṃ.</div></td><td>Not only feelings, but as mentioned earlier, perceptions and thoughts also arise, persist, and cease, being known, standing, and ceasing.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tena anavasesato sabbadhammānampi uppādādito viditabhāvaṃ dasseti.</div></td><td>This is only an illustration, namely, the grasping of feelings, perceptions, thoughts, and the taking up of meditation themes.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Therefore, it demonstrates the complete knowledge of all phenomena arising.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Apica vedanāya uppādo vidito hoti, upaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti, atthaṅgamo vidito hoti.</div></td><td>♦ Moreover, the arising of feelings is known, the presence of feelings is known, and the ending of feelings is known.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kathaṃ vedanāya uppādo vidito hoti?</div></td><td>How is the arising of feelings known?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Avijjāsamudayā vedanāsamudayo, taṇhāsamudayā kammasamudayo, phassasamudayā vedanāsamudayoti nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi vedanākkhandhassa samudayaṃ passati.</div></td><td>Feelings arise due to the arising of ignorance, the arising of craving, and the arising of kamma.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evaṃ vedanāya uppādo vidito hoti.</div></td><td>Feeling arises due to the arising of contact.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kathaṃ vedanāya upaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti?</div></td><td>Even when one sees the characteristic of arising of the feeling aggregate, one sees the arising of the feeling aggregate.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Aniccato manasikaroto khayatupaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti, dukkhato manasikaroto bhayatupaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti, anattato manasikaroto suññatupaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti.</div></td><td>Thus, the arising of feelings is known.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evaṃ vedanāya upaṭṭhānaṃ viditaṃ hoti.</div></td><td>How is the presence of feelings known?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iti khayato bhayato suññato jānāti.</div></td><td>When contemplating impermanence, the presence of cessation is known;</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kathaṃ vedanāya atthaṅgamo vidito hoti?</div></td><td>when contemplating suffering, the presence of fear is known;</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Avijjānirodhā vedanānirodho…pe… evaṃ vedanāya atthaṅgamo vidito hoti.</div></td><td>when contemplating not-self, the presence of emptiness is known.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Imināpi nayenettha attho veditabbo.</div></td><td>Thus, the presence of feelings is known.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Thus, one knows impermanence, suffering, and not-self.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>How is the ending of feelings known?</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>With the cessation of ignorance, feelings cease.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>.. Thus, the ending of feelings is known.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>This should be understood in this way.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Iti rūpanti ettha itisaddo anavasesato rūpassa sarūpanidassanatthoti tassa idaṃ rūpanti etena sādhāraṇato sarūpanidassanamāha, ettakaṃ rūpanti etena anavasesato, na ito paraṃ rūpaṃ atthīti tabbinimuttassa aññassa abhāvaṃ.</div></td><td>♦ This is the explanation.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iti vedanātiādīsupi ayaṃ vedanā, ettakā vedanā, ito paraṃ vedanā natthi.</div></td><td>Here, the word "form" refers to the appearance of form with its characteristics, just as the seeing of form is illustrated, without any other form beyond this.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ayaṃ saññā…pe… ime saṅkhārā…pe… idaṃ viññāṇaṃ, ettakaṃ viññāṇaṃ, ito paraṃ viññāṇaṃ natthīti evamattho daṭṭhabboti āha ‘‘vedanādīsupi eseva nayo’ ’ti.</div></td><td>This is form.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Similarly, this is feeling.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>.. There is no feeling beyond this.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>This is perception.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>.. These are perceptions.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>This is consciousness.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>.. This is consciousness.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>There is no consciousness beyond this.</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>This is the way to understand this.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Ñāṇena jānitvā paroparāni.</div></td><td>♦ "Knowing the things going to and fro" - Knowing the higher and lower states.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Paroparānīti parāni ca oparāni ca.</div></td><td>"Higher and lower" - Both higher and lower.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Uttamādhamānīti parattabhāvasakattabhāvādīni uttamādhamāni.</div></td><td>"Uttamādhamānī" - Superior and inferior conditions of existence.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Calitanti taṇhādiṭṭhivipphanditaṃ.</div></td><td>"He leaps over" - He overcomes them, he is free from craving.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Anīghoti rāgādīigharahito.</div></td><td>"He is untied" - He is liberated from attachment.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Atāri soti so evarūpo arahā jātijaraṃ atari.</div></td><td>"He transcends" - He is such a one who, having transcended birth and aging, transcends.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ Samādhibhāvanāsuttavaṇṇanā niṭṭhitā.</div></td><td>♦ Thus ends the Discourse on the Development of Concentration.</td></tr></tbody></table><p><span style="font-size: 16px;"></span></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">ChatGPT 3.5 pali -> english translation of root AN 4.41 text</h1><div>(major errors!)</div><p><br /></p><p>"Monks, there are these four developments of concentration. What four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of direct knowledge and vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of mindfulness and clear comprehension. There is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the destruction of the taints. </p><p><br /></p><p>And what, monks, is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of direct knowledge and vision? Here, a monk, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and dwells in the fourth jhana. This is called the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of direct knowledge and vision.</p><p><br /></p><p>And what is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of mindfulness and clear comprehension? Here, monks, a monk makes the perception of light arise in his mind and establishes the perception of day: as it is during the day, so it is at night; as it is at night, so it is during the day. Thus, with a mind that is open, unenveloped, he develops a mind that is radiant. This is called the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of mindfulness and clear comprehension.</p><p><br /></p><p>And what is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of mindfulness and clear comprehension? Here, monks, a monk, when feelings arise, understands, attends, and comprehends them; when perceptions arise, he understands, attends, and comprehends them; when thoughts arise, he understands, attends, and comprehends them. This is called the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the attainment of mindfulness and clear comprehension.</p><p><br /></p><p>And what is the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the destruction of the taints? Here, monks, a monk dwells contemplating the rise and fall in the five aggregates of clinging: 'Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the cessation of form; such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the cessation of feeling; such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the cessation of perception; such are fabrications, such is the origin of fabrications, such is the cessation of fabrications; such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the cessation of consciousness.' This is called the development of concentration that, when developed and cultivated, leads to the destruction of the taints.</p><p><br /></p><p>These, monks, are the four developments of concentration."</p><p><br /></p><p>This, monks, is what was said by the Blessed One. This is the meaning, and this is the essence of the purport in the verse:</p><p><br /></p><p>"Counting the worlds, he transcends both ends,</p><p>Untouched, he stirs not in any world;</p><p>Calm, smokeless, and with craving fully quenched,</p><p>He crosses over birth and aging."</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">This is the pali root text for AN 4.41 I fed into AI</h1><p>“Catasso imā, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā.</p><p>Katamā catasso?</p><p>Atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṃvattati;</p><p>atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati;</p><p>atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṃvattati;</p><p>atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">(the four jhana elision is probably what screwed up AI really hard)</h3><p>Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṃvattati?</p><p>Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.</p><p>Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṃvattati.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati?</p><p>Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ālokasaññaṃ manasi karoti, divāsaññaṃ adhiṭṭhāti—</p><p>yathā divā tathā rattiṃ, yathā rattiṃ tathā divā.</p><p>Iti vivaṭena cetasā apariyonaddhena sappabhāsaṃ cittaṃ bhāveti.</p><p>Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṃvattati.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṃvattati?</p><p>Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno </p><p>viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti;</p><p>viditā saññā … pe … </p><p>viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.</p><p>Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṃvattati.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati?</p><p>Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati:</p><p>‘iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;</p><p>iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;</p><p>iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;</p><p>iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo;</p><p>iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.</p><p>Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati.</p><p>Imā kho, bhikkhave, catasso samādhibhāvanā.</p><p>Idañca pana metaṃ, bhikkhave, sandhāya bhāsitaṃ pārāyane puṇṇakapañhe:</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>‘Saṅkhāya lokasmiṃ paroparāni,</p><p>Yassiñjitaṃ natthi kuhiñci loke;</p><p>Santo vidhūmo anīgho nirāso,</p><p>Atāri so jātijaranti brūmī’”ti.</p><div><br /></div><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><br /><p></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-50215656683304639442024-03-07T09:15:00.000-08:002024-03-07T09:17:33.858-08:00SA 718 new translation by William Chu: This is the Agama parallel to SN 46.4, MN 111, and AN 4.41<br />Very short but important sutta!<div>It's basically a condensed version of MN 111 (which has no Agama parallel).</div><div>The 4 jhānas have 7 factors, the same 7 awakening factors can be independently developed and combined to get any of the 4 jhānas. </div><div><br /></div><div>In the EBT (early Buddhist teachings), 7 awakening factors are both a causal sequence and independent jhāna factors.</div><div><br /></div><div>In LBT Theravada (Late Buddhist Teachings), Jhāna and 7sb is redefined into an entirely different animal, </div><div>7 awakening factors are not something you do all the time as in EBT, </div><div>but only arise at the time you attain path and fruit.</div><div><br /><h2 style="font-family: Arial;"> SA 718 比丘 Bhikkhu ∥<a href="https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn46/index.html#46.4">SN <sup>46.4</sup></a> ∥<a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn111/index.html#111">MN <sup>111</sup></a> ∥<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41">AN <sup>4.41</sup></a></h2><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2024 translation by William Chu)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#718" style="font-size: 16px;">SA <sup>718</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - SA 718 比丘 Bhikkhu ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn46/index.html#46.4" style="font-size: 16px;">SN <sup>46.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn111/index.html#111" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>111</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> ∥</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an04/index.html#4.41" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>4.41</sup></a><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#718.1" style="font-size: 16px;">SA <sup>718.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">are seven factors of jhāna that can be used in any combination)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#718.2" style="font-size: 16px;">SA <sup>718.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (simile of king wearing any combination of clothes any time, any posture, any activity)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">SA 718 (七一八) 比丘</div></td><td>SA 718 (Seven One Eight) Bhikkhu</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">如是我聞:</div></td><td>Thus have I heard</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。</div></td><td>At one time, the Buddha dwelled in Shrāvasti, at Anāthapiṇḍaka’s Park.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">爾時,尊者舍利弗告諸比丘:</div></td><td>At that time, Venerable Śāriputra addressed the monks:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">「有七覺分。</div></td><td>"There are these Seven Factors of Awakening.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">何等為七?</div></td><td>Which Seven?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">謂念覺分、擇法覺分、精進覺分、喜覺分、猗覺分、定覺分、捨覺分。</div></td><td>They are the Awakening Factors of mindfulness, Dharma-investigation, vigor, joy, ease, undistracted-lucidity, and of equanimity.</td></tr></tbody></table><div id="718.1" style="font-size: 16px;"></div><h3 style="font-family: Arial;">718.1 - (<a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html">7sb☀️ </a>are seven factors of jhāna that can be used in any combination)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">此七覺分決定而得,不勤而得,我隨所欲,覺分正受。</div></td><td>These Seven Factors of Awakening are developed as I will them, being mastered without straining; As I wish, these Factors of Awakening are developed while I abide in jhānas.*</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">若晨朝時、日中時、日暮時,若欲正受,隨其所欲,多入正受。</div></td><td>Whether it is in the morning, in the midday, or at dusk, I frequently abide in jhānas this way as I wish.</td></tr></tbody></table><div id="718.2" style="font-size: 16px;"></div><h3 style="font-family: Arial;">718.2 - (simile of king wearing any combination of clothes any time, any posture, any activity)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">譬如王大臣,有種種衣服,置箱簏中,隨其所須,日中所須、日暮所須,隨欲自在。</div></td><td>To use a simile: a minister of a king has various clothes in his possession. He stores them in a thatched basket, and whatever he may require in daytime or at dusk by ways of clothing, he can put whichever one on as he pleases.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">如是,比丘!此七覺分,決定而得,不勤而得,隨意正受。</div></td><td>In the same way, monks, these Seven Factors of Awakening are developed as I will them, being mastered without straining; As I wish, these Factors of Awakening are developed while I abide in jhānas.*</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">我此念覺分,清淨純白,</div></td><td>[In such an abiding, and] regarding the Awakening Factor of Mindfulness, it is rendered pure, utterly without defects.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">起時知起,滅時知滅,沒時知沒,已起知已起,已滅知已滅,</div></td><td>It is known as [the Factor] arises, known as it diminishes, known as it ceases…it is known as it is already arisen in me, it is known as it has already diminished in me.</td></tr></tbody></table><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">(and so on for remaining 6 factors of <a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html">7sb☀️ </a>)</h4><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">如是擇法、精進、喜、猗、定、捨覺分亦如是說。」</div></td><td>In the same way, [in such an abiding, and] regarding the Factor of Dharma-investigation…of equanimity…”</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">尊者舍利弗說此經已,諸比丘聞其所說,歡喜奉行。</div></td><td>Having heard this discourse delivered by Venerable Sariputra, all the monks happily put it to practice.</td></tr></tbody></table><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(end of sutta⏹️)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td>* (zhengshou—vihārāya; abiding in jhānas; see, e.g. <a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#474">SA <sup>474</sup></a>; <a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/sa-all/index.html#748">SA <sup>748</sup></a>, “qiding zhengshou”—“having emerged from one’s abiding in jhānas”)</td></tr></tbody></table><p> </p><p><br /></p></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-23264178573017940172024-03-03T09:20:00.000-08:002024-03-03T09:20:08.291-08:00right speech, wrong speech cloaked in civil language<br /><br />From a parting message to a troll:<br /><br />....<br /><br /><br />Like upper class folks who've learned how to cloak wrong speech and wrong intentions in socially acceptable language, <div>but the words and intent are far more malicious and cutting than run of the mill insults or physical assault.</div><div>You can get by the moderators here, but in real life, be careful.<br />People get stabbed, shot, etc. if you say the wrong thing, </div><div>or even non verbally give off an insulting, disrespectful energy with body language or a glance.<br />A relative of mine made some insulting comments debating a Tibetan Buddhist one time.<br />No angry words were exchanged.<br />But soon after that meeting, my relative developed a severe pain around their neck/shoulder/back that lasted many years.<br />It must have been more than 5 years later when they finally found a good chinese medicine doctor (who is also an exceptional meditator) who diagnosed and fixed the pain.<br />The doctor explained that it must have been some high level qigong master or meditator who intentionally put some kind of energy block around the neck.<br />The doctor's own qigong level was such that he was able to unblock it.<br />My relative then made the connection that it must have been when they had that debate with the Tibetan Buddhist.<br /><br />You want to be careful what you say and how you say it no matter who you're talking to.<br />They may not have an intention or have psychic powers and the skill to put a physical hurting on you, but they may have Deva guardians or demonic spirit companions who do.<br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-39347816429390312982024-03-01T09:59:00.000-08:002024-03-01T18:13:53.997-08:00MA 198 ariya savaka "noble disciple" loses their "nobility" (enlightenment is reversible? really?) || MN 125<h1 style="text-align: left;"><div class="sticky" style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px; font-weight: 400; padding: 10px; position: sticky; top: 0px;"><a href="https://lucid24.org/index.html"><abbr title="4 noble truths, Lucid24.org home page">4👑☸</abbr></a> → <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/index.html"><abbr title="EBT wikipedia, also serves as lucid24.org website index">EBpedia📚</abbr></a> → <b><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html"><abbr title="Ariya = noble. awakened. enlightened.">Ariya</abbr></a> </b> </div><span style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"></span></h1><h1><div class="mybgblu1" style="background-color: #f0f0ff; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)<br />⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#2.10">Ariya <sup>2.10</sup></a><br /><br />a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha). See <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#3">Ariya <sup>3</sup></a><br />sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, but not an arahant yet. See <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#4">Ariya <sup>4</sup></a><br /><br /></div><br /></h1><h1 style="text-align: left;">MN 125 All you need to become enlightened is shave your head and ordain as a buddhist monk</h1><p>If we accept most translators' interpretation of "noble disciple", then we have the result that a householder who decides to become monk, they immediately become enlightened, guaranteed arahantship in 7 lifetimes or less. You don't even have to do any work, just shave your head and ordain and you magically become enlightened already.</p><p><br /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Taṃ dhammaṃ suṇāti gahapati vā gahapatiputto vā aññatarasmiṃ vā kule paccājāto.</div></td><td>A <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">householder</span> hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">So taṃ dhammaṃ sutvā tathāgate saddhaṃ paṭilabhati.</div></td><td>They gain faith in the Realized One,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">So tena saddhāpaṭilābhena samannāgato iti paṭisañcikkhati:</div></td><td>and reflect:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘sambādho gharāvāso rajāpatho, abbhokāso pabbajjā.</div></td><td>‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Nayidaṃ sukaraṃ agāraṃ ajjhāvasatā ekantaparipuṇṇaṃ ekantaparisuddhaṃ saṅkhalikhitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ carituṃ.</div></td><td>It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Yannūnāhaṃ kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajeyyan’ti.</div></td><td>Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’</td></tr></tbody></table><div id="125.3.1" style="font-size: 16px;"></div><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">125.3.1 - (renounce, shave head, work on sīla)</h2><p><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">So aparena samayena appaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya appaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajati.</div></td><td>After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, ariyasāvako abbhokāsagato hoti.</div></td><td>And it’s only then that a<span style="background-color: #fcff01;"> noble disciple comes out into the open,</span></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Etthagedhā hi, aggivessana, devamanussā yadidaṃ—pañca kāmaguṇā.</div></td><td>for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation.</td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">MA 198 is a close parallel to MN 125, with the same "noble disciple" absurdity (shave your head and become an arahant immediately) </h1><h1 style="text-align: left;"><br /></h1><div><div dir="LTR" id="flink-29" lang="en-US" style="font-size: 16px;"><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">彼所說法,居士子 聞,居士子聞已,得信如來所說法。</div></td><td>"A householder's son hears that Dharma taught by him. On hearing it, the householder's son gains confidence in the Dharma taught by the Tathāgata.19</td></tr></tbody></table></div><div dir="LTR" id="flink-30" lang="en-US" style="font-size: 16px;"><h2 id="flink-9" style="font-family: Arial;">(renounce, shave head, work on sīla)</h2><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">彼得信 已,剃除鬚髮,著袈裟衣,至信、捨家、無家、學 道。</div></td><td>Having gained confidence, he shaves of his beard and hair, puts on monastic robes and out of confidence leaves home, becomes homeless to train in the path.</td></tr></tbody></table><h3 id="flink-10" style="font-family: Arial;">(simile: new monk has 5kg desire, just as elephant still desires pleasures of being wild in forest)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>(<a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/5kg/index.html">5kg</a>)<table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">阿奇舍那!爾時聖弟子出在露地,猶王 野象,如是野象貪欲樂著者,謂在林中。</div></td><td>"Aciravata, at that time the noble disciple comes out into the open, just like the king's forest elephant [was brought out into the open]. Just as the forest elephant has lust, desire, delight and attachment, namely for staying in the forest,20</td></tr></tbody></table></div></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;"><br /></h1><h1 style="text-align: left;">MA 198 also has an even more ridiculous problem not in MN 125, an arahant can lose their enlightenment!</h1><p><a href="https://lucid24.org/index.html" style="font-size: 18px;"><abbr title="4 noble truths, Lucid24.org home page">4👑☸</abbr></a><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> → </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/index.html" style="font-size: 18px;"><abbr title="Madhyama Āgama: middle length discourses">MA</abbr></a><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> → </span><b style="font-size: 18px;"><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/ma198/index.html">MA 198</a> 調御地經</b><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> || </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html" style="font-size: 18px;">MN 125</a><span style="background-color: #f0f0f0; font-size: 18px;"> </span></p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">"tamed" = arahantship, or somewhere on the path of irreversible enlightenment</h3><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">如是,阿奇舍那!若 聖弟子隨如來能堪忍者,彼於爾時調御、 善調御,得上調御、最上調御,得上息,最上 息,除諸曲惡、恐怖、愚癡及諛諂,清淨止塵, 無垢無穢,可呼可請,可敬可重,實可供 養,為一切天人良福田也。</div></td><td>Like this, Aciravata, when the noble disciple follows [the instructions of] the Tathāgata and is able to bear up [with all of this], at that time he is tamed, well tamed, has reached the higher taming, the supreme taming, has reached the higher peace, the supreme peace, has discarded all crookedness, fear, stupidity and deceitfulness, he has become pure, has settled the dust, is free from dirt, free from filth, fit to be praised, fit to be invited, fit to be revered, fit to be respected, truly fit for offerings, an excellent field of merit for all gods and men.</td></tr><tr><td style="font-size: 16px;"></td></tr></tbody></table><div dir="LTR" id="flink-35" lang="en-US" style="font-size: 16px;"><h3 style="font-family: Arial; text-align: left;">Yet here, the Buddha says a "noble disciple" can die "untamed" (unenlightened)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">「阿奇舍那!少野象 不調御死者,說不調御死,中、老野象不調 御死者,說不調御死。</div></td><td>31. "Aciravata, a young forest elephant who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed', [759a] a middle-aged ... an old elephant who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed'.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">阿奇舍那!少聖弟子 不調御命終者,說不調御命終,中、老聖弟 子不調御命終者,說不調御命終。</div></td><td>Aciravata, a young<span style="background-color: #fcff01;"> noble disciple who dies untamed </span>is reckoned to have 'died untamed', a middle-aged ... an old noble disciple who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed'.33</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">阿奇舍 那!少野象善調御死者,說善調御死,中、老 野象善調死者,說善調御死。</div></td><td>32. "Aciravata, a young forest elephant who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed', a middle-aged ... an old elephant who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed'.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">阿奇舍那!少 聖弟子善調御命終者,說善調御命終,中、老 聖弟子善調御命終者,說善調御命終。」</div></td><td>Aciravata, a young noble disciple who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed', a middle-aged ... an old noble disciple who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed'.</td></tr></tbody></table></div><br /><br />(In the <span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn125/index.html#125.5.2" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>125.5.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span>, they link the "tamed" and "untamed" to a "bhikkhu" rather than "noble disciple" so it avoids this absurdity)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><h1 style="text-align: left;">Conclusion</h1><div><span style="background-color: #f0f0ff; font-size: 16px;">✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="background-color: #f0f0ff; font-size: 16px;">⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#2.10" style="font-size: 16px;">Ariya <sup>2.10</sup></a><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></div><div><br /></div>ariya savaka = "disciple of the noble ones", who may or may not have some degree of enlightenment,<div>not "noble disciple", </div><div>which is "a confirmed enlightened noble one, at minimum a stream enterer."</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>Most translators, In English and Chinese, stubbornly continue to make this error, despite Thanissaro Bhikkhu pointing out this problem and widely publishing correct translations of ariya savaka for over 25 years.</div><div><br /></div><div>I recently ran most of the Chinese Agama sutras through google translate into English, and guess what?</div><div>It translates ariya savaka wrongly because AI can only be as accurate as the source it's trained on.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /><h1 style="text-align: left;">Will translators fix their errors please?</h1><div>And will the army of ardent supporters of those translators give them a nudge to encourage them to do so?</div><div><br /></div><div>Chinese and Pali source text for 'ariya savaka' has the same issue - grammatically ambiguous supporting both interpretations, </div><div>but logic and coherence demands only one of those interpretations is valid and coherent in every reference.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></div></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-49550180648212268242024-02-29T09:29:00.000-08:002024-02-29T09:29:48.985-08:00🔗📝notes on 'pari-mukha'<p> </p><p><br /></p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/02/parimukha-in-breath-meditation-case.html" style="color: #8a2e2e; text-decoration-line: none;">parimukha in breath meditation: case closed</a></h3><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>🔗<a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/06/parimukha-from-non-ebt-sources-vism-has.html">defn. from Ab Vb, KN Ps, Vism</a></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-61226806736586694722024-02-29T05:43:00.000-08:002024-03-01T05:32:48.617-08:004th jhāna physical pain and pleasure and neutral. Jhāna doesn't have special nervous system set aside for it<br /><br /> <br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756902#p756902">Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756902#p756902">Post</a> by <a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3078">frank k</a> » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:40 am<br /><br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=143">Ceisiwr</a> wrote: <a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756851#p756851">↑</a>Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:06 pm...I think you understood what I meant by "tradition" and "absorbed".<br />I suspect what you might mean, but am not sure.<br />If you're asking what a legitimate EBT interpretation of 4 jhāna formula means,<br />MN 111 and MN 137 make it absolutely clear there's a physical body experiencing physical pain, pleasure, neutral.<br />MN 137 differentiates between upekkha of four jhānas as equanimity towards the 6 sensory gates of the physical body,<br />as opposed to upekkha of formless which is equanimity based on singleness (ekatta) which does not references the 5 bodily senses.<br />So MN 137 is saying upekkha of 4 jhanas is equanimity towards whatever is arising through bodily sense doors.<br />Which can't happen in a Vism. REdefined "jhana" being a frozen disembodied stupor.<br /><br />You can hear sounds in all four jhanas, not just the first.<br />You can feel pain if someone pokes you with a pin all in 4 jhanas.<br /><br />If the pain is strong enough or sound is loud enough, it can knock you out of 4th jhana or 1st jhana.<br /><br />If it's mild, no big deal you can ignore.<br /><br />There's a bodily transformation and jhana battery capacity change that happens over years.<br />Body gets softer, sensations get smoother, the more the jhana battery is charged up the more neither pain nor pleasure vedana is predominant.<br />Sukha pleasure faculty (physical) happens when the jhana battery is low.<br />Exactly the same happens with eating food.<br />When need is urgent to intake nutrients, you get high dosage of sukha (physical pleasure) when you eat and you're starving.<br />When you're full, not hungry anymore but you still eat, then you get upekkha and adukkham asukham neutral physical sensation and equanimity mentally.<br />If you keep eating even when you're stuffed, then you'll get physical pain.<br /><br />There isn't some special nervous system and new set of pleasure hormones set aside for jhana.<br />It's the same sukha physical pleasure you experience from sex or eating food when you're hungry.<br />Same nervous system, same hormones and pleasure chemicals in the brain.<br />That's why you hear so many religious traditions with mundane jhana experience described as full body orgasm.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756965#p756965">Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain</a><br /><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756965#p756965">Post</a> by <a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3078">frank k</a> » Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 am<br />...<br />you asked: why does someone in the 4th Jhāna not feel pain if an insect bites him?<br /><br />and I responded one DOES feel pain in 4th jhana, because the 5 senses operate.<br />if the pain is overwhelming, it knocks one out of 4th jhana.<br />If it's mild pain, one can ignore it.<br />Vimuttimagga, which is also based on Abhidhamma, supports an EBT based interpretation of sutta jhana.<br />Their defn. of "access" and "absorption" appana samadhi is different than Vism.<br />Vimt. uses a straightforward meaning of "sound is a thorn in jhana", and it also mentions sitting a long time leg pain can cause one to exit jhana, which agrees with exactly how I answered your original question.<br />"access" in vimt. is the same as EBT MN 19 where one over thinks causes body to be tired.<br />appanaa samadhi in vimt. means one's focus is locked in, never gets interrupted by 5 hindrances.<br /><br />...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-45736730069123469572024-02-28T05:16:00.000-08:002024-02-28T05:16:35.050-08:00parimukha in breath meditation: case closed<p> </p><p><br /></p><h3 style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); 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clip: rect(0px, 0px, 0px, 0px); height: 1px; margin: -1px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; position: absolute; width: 1px;">Post</span></a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <span style="font-weight: 700;"><a class="username" href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3078" style="background-color: transparent; color: #342ead; direction: ltr; display: inline-block; text-decoration-line: none; unicode-bidi: embed;">frank k</a></span> » </span><time datetime="2024-02-28T13:05:19+00:00">Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:05 am</time></p><div class="content" style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); clear: both; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.3em; line-height: 1.4em; min-height: 3em; overflow: auto hidden; padding-bottom: 1px;">Another problem with the [wrong] literal spatial interpretation of parimukha, which I never saw anyone point out,<br />is 'pari-mukham satim upatthavetva' is saying the 'establishing of sati' is 'parimukha',<br />not "the in breath and out breath" is parimukha.<br /><br />Sati means remembering and applying the Dharma.<br />If no 'dharma' is explicitly defined, then default value of Dhamma is 4 satipatthana.<br />Buddha explicitly defines sati = 4 satipatthana in SN 47.2.<br />In breath meditation context, you could say 'dhamma' = the instructions on 16 steps of breath meditation that sati is being "mindful" of.<br /><br />Establishing of sati is what we 'parimukha',<br />we establish remembering and application of the Dharma "in front" [parimukkha],<br />not establish "breathing at the nose".<br />Since establishing of sati is not a physical thing, it makes no sense to take 'in front' or 'entrance' as a physical location.<br />The same use of 'front', 'face', 'entrance' in modern English, old English, every language and culture exists I'm sure.<br />"Face the facts" (at your nostril?)<br />'con-front reality'. (at your nostiril? The booger sitting right there?)<br /><br />It's amazing there can still be any controversy on this.<br />Even the Ajahn Brahm camp, which has [wrong] views on jhana similar to Vism., don't interpret parimukha for breath meditation as "focus attention at breathing in nostril."</div><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">another post noting that the parimukha instruction also appears before instructions to do metta and brahmaviharas</h1><p><span style="background-color: rgba(52, 46, 173, 0.05); color: #333333; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br /></span></p><h3 style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); border: none; color: #115098; float: none !important; font-family: "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.5em; line-height: 18.75px; margin-bottom: 0.3em !important; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 180px; margin-top: 0px !important; padding: 2px 0px 0px;"><a href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756732#p756732" style="background-color: transparent; color: #342ead; direction: ltr; display: inline-block; text-decoration-line: none; unicode-bidi: embed;">Re: An Anapanasati Question</a></h3><ul class="post-buttons" style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); color: #333333; float: none; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; list-style: none; margin: 0px; max-width: 40%; padding: 0px; position: absolute; right: 0px; top: 5px;"><li style="float: left; margin-right: 3px;"><a class="button button-icon-only" href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/app.php/post/756732/report" style="background-color: #e9e9e9; background-image: linear-gradient(rgb(255, 255, 255) 0%, rgb(233, 233, 233) 100%); border-radius: 4px; border: 1px solid rgb(199, 195, 191); box-shadow: rgb(255, 255, 255) 0px 0px 0px 1px inset; color: #d31141; cursor: pointer; direction: ltr; display: inline-block; font-family: "open sans", "droid sans", Verdana, Arial, Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1.4; padding: 2px 3px; 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margin: -1px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; position: absolute; width: 1px;">Quote</span></a></li></ul><p class="author" style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); clear: both; color: #333333; font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; line-height: 1.2em; margin: 0px 0px 0.6em; padding: 0px 0px 5px;"><a class="unread" href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=756732#p756732" style="background-color: transparent; color: #342ead; direction: ltr; display: inline-block; text-decoration-line: none; unicode-bidi: embed;" title="Post"><span aria-hidden="true" class="icon fa-file fa-fw icon-lightgray icon-md" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; color: #999999; display: inline-block; font-family: FontAwesome; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; line-height: 1; text-align: center; text-rendering: auto; width: 1.28571em;"></span><span class="sr-only" style="border: 0px; clip: rect(0px, 0px, 0px, 0px); height: 1px; margin: -1px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; position: absolute; width: 1px;">Post</span></a> <span class="responsive-hide">by <span style="font-weight: 700;"><a class="username" href="https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3078" style="background-color: transparent; color: #342ead; direction: ltr; display: inline-block; text-decoration-line: none; unicode-bidi: embed;">frank k</a></span> » </span><time datetime="2024-02-27T13:04:27+00:00">Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:04 am</time></p><div class="content" style="background-color: rgba(185, 235, 204, 0.05); clear: both; color: #333333; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.3em; line-height: 1.4em; min-height: 3em; overflow: auto hidden; padding-bottom: 1px;">And what about Brahma realm gods, who don't even breathe or eat food?<br /><br />How do Brahma gods do metta and other 4 brahmaviharas without watching the breath at their nostril?</div><p><span style="background-color: rgba(52, 46, 173, 0.05); color: #333333; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">So you're saying brahma gods, who don't need to eat food or breathe, suddenly grow a nose, lungs, and start watching a breath at their nose when they do metta and brahma viharas?</span></p><p><span style="background-color: rgba(52, 46, 173, 0.05); color: #333333; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="background-color: rgba(52, 46, 173, 0.05); color: #333333; font-family: Helvetica, "lucida grande", "trebuchet ms", Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br /></span></p><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><h1 style="text-align: left;">case closed</h1><br /><br /><br /><br />parimukha is not literal, but figurative here. This is absolutely certain, because that term is used in these other meditations that have nothing to do with the nostril.<br />Do you need to watch the breath at the nose to abandon 5 hindrances? Or do metta? Or watch defilements vanish?<br /><br /><a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/p/parimukha/book/index.html">https://lucid24.org/tped/p/parimukha/book/index.html</a><br />excerpt<br />Scriptural evidence; all of the practices below cannot be undertaken when mindfulness is affixed at mouth-nose:<br />EA17.1, the practice of contemplating on the inconstancy of the five aggregates is described, prefaced by the parimukham expression: “專精一心,念色無常,念痛、想、行、識無常”; “He diligently collects his mind, and contemplates on/brings to his mind that form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness are inconstant.”<br />DN25 (iii49), MN39, AN9.40, speaks of the expression “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti” as in “overcoming hindrances”<br />AN3.63, as in the “divine abodes”<br />AN3.63, as in realizing that one’s defilements have been eradicated<br />MN91, as in setting the mind on the welfare of oneself and others.<br />SN54.7: Mahā-kappina was practicing anapanasati, with “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti.” He experienced the quaking, or spontaneous tremor of the body as a disturbance. The Buddha instructed him to practice “anapanasati: the contemplation on abandoning, with parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti”<br />Ud5.10: “And on that occasion Ven. Cūḷa Panthaka was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, with mindfulness established to the fore…With steady body, steady awareness—whether standing, sitting, or lying down—a monk determined on mindfulness gains one distinction after another. ”<br />None of the above can be undertaken when attention is affixed at nose-mouth.<br />Another interesting point: the “early of the early” seem to not include this “parimukha” instruction in the standard meditation formula altogether (Ud21, 42, 43, 46, 60, 71, 77)<br />Mindfulness is not attention. Mindfulness is remembrance of one’s purpose, directionality, task…:<br />AN7.63: “Just as the royal frontier fortress has a gate-keeper — wise, experienced, intelligent — to keep out those he doesn't know and to let in those he does, for the protection of those within and to ward off those without…In the same way a disciple of the noble ones is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. With mindfulness as his gate-keeper, the disciple of the ones abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is blameless, and looks after himself with purity. With this sixth true quality is he endowed.”<br />To say that one should direct one’s mindfulness to a spatial location simply doesn’t make sense. Practitioners have to put the Teaching in front (mukha), i.e. invoke it in mind; It is akin to “gatekeeping” because the act of remembering the Dhamma is both to preserve it and to be preserved by it (śrutidharā). When one does mindfulness of the body, what one does is really not simply directing attention and affixing it to the body, but rather being mindful of body-related issues within the context of appropriate attention (e.g. practicing it with the purpose of preserving bodily ease, preventing bodily fever, and of inducing disenchantment…).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-19920804885404216872024-02-23T08:37:00.000-08:002024-02-23T08:37:51.322-08:008m vid: Chinese Diplomat in austria who saved thousands of jews by writing visas<p> </p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;">4bv☮️ Bank🏦: Bank of Brahma viharas - inspiring stories, videos to power your practice of metta and 4bv </h3><div><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/04/4bv-bank-bank-of-brahma-viharas.html">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/04/4bv-bank-bank-of-brahma-viharas.html</a></div><p>Also ignites your pīti pamojja (mental joy, rapture, rejoicing in skillful Dharmas) to power your jhāna.</p><p><br /></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="266" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/U4C-ucs3ZZQ" width="320" youtube-src-id="U4C-ucs3ZZQ"></iframe></div><br /><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-50295460919696632792024-02-17T10:21:00.000-08:002024-02-17T10:28:04.157-08:00hiri + otappa = shame and dread, not "conscience and prudence"<p> </p><p>hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṃ</p><p>ind. to conceal the genitals; lit. for the purpose of covering the <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">shameful </span>private parts [hirikopīna + paṭicchādana + attha + aṃ] ✓</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h3 style="font-family: Arial;">MN 2.3.1 (Robes to ward off cold and heat, mosquitos...)</h3><p><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Katame ca, bhikkhave, āsavā paṭisevanā pahātabbā?</div></td><td>And what are the asinine-inclinations that should be given up by using?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭisaṅkhā yoniso cīvaraṃ paṭisevati:</div></td><td>Take a monk who, reflecting properly, makes use of robes:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘yāvadeva sītassa paṭighātāya, uṇhassa paṭighātāya, ḍaṃsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassānaṃ paṭighātāya, yāvadeva hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṃ’.</div></td><td>‘Only for the sake of warding off cold and heat; for warding off the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; and for <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">covering the private parts.’</span></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">A nun or monk wears a robe so they don't walk around naked.</h1><p>If someone grabbed their robe and tore it, off, would they feel "shame" because their private parts are exposed?</p><p>or would they feel "conscience"? </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">The word otappa has the root √tap which means really hot </h1><p>otappati pr. is heated; becomes warm [ava + √tap] ✗</p><p><br /></p><p>Do you "fear" touching a hot stove?</p><p>Do you "dread" touching a hot stove?</p><p>Or do you feel "prudence" when touching a hot stove?</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">"conscience and prudence" is a really poor translation of hiri and otappa</h1><p>It loses the emotional charge, the urgency, the warning of dire consequences that hiri and otappa are supposed to protect you from.</p><p>On a nuclear power plant, you want to see clear, bright signs warning of extreme dangers.</p><p>Not a discrete, hidden, camoflauged sign, small lettering, hard to read, saying "conscience and prudence should be exercised." </p><p>I can only guess Sujato chose "conscience and prudence" because of emotional baggage from theistic religions with unskillful understandings of 'sin', 'shame', etc.</p><p><br /></p><p>If you're contemplating actions of killing, stealing, raping, lying, that's a nuclear reactor that needs bright urgent signs. You should feel shame, fear, dread, not conscience and prudence.</p><p>If you're going to a tea party with your friends, and you're worried about what to wear or what kind of snack to bring will cause any offense, that's "conscience and prudence."</p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-18950604417119486842024-02-17T09:56:00.000-08:002024-02-17T09:57:36.426-08:00AN 7.67 hiri and otappa (shame and fear of wrong doing): more "noble disciple" absurdity from most translators<p><br /></p><p>I've translated ariya-savaka correctly here, but imagine we're using the wrong translation of "noble disciple" and think about the implications. </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">7.67.3.2 - (hiri/sense-of-shame → moat deep and wide)</h4><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare parikkhā hoti gambhīrā ceva vitthatā ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.</div></td><td>Just as a fortress has a moat that is deep and wide,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako hirīmā hoti, hirīyati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, hirīyati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.</div></td><td>In the same way a <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">noble-one's-disciple</span> has a proper sense of shame. They’re ashamed of bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and ashamed of having any bad, unskillful Dharmas.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Hirīparikkho kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;</div></td><td>A noble-one's-disciple with shame as their moat gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;</div></td><td>they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.</div></td><td>and they keep themselves pure.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iminā dutiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (2)</div></td><td>This is the second true Dharma they have.</td></tr></tbody></table><div id="7.67.3.3" style="font-size: 16px;"></div><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">7.67.3.3 – (otappa/dread wrong-doing → patrol path)</h4><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare anupariyāyapatho hoti ucco ceva vitthato ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.</div></td><td>Just as a fortress has a patrol path that is high and wide,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evamevaṃ, kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ottappī hoti, ottappati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, ottappati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.</div></td><td>In the same way a<span style="background-color: #fcff01;"> noble-one's-disciple </span>has dread. They dread bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and they dread acquiring any bad, unskillful Dharmas.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ottappapariyāyapatho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;</div></td><td>A noble-one's-disciple with dread as their patrol path gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;</div></td><td>they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.</div></td><td>and they keep themselves pure.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Iminā tatiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (3)</div></td><td>This is the third true Dharma they have.</td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">What if that 'noble disciple' is an arahant or non-returner?</h1><p><br /></p><p>1. An arahant has completely uprooted any greed, aversion, and ignorance. It's impossible for them to form an action for them to be ashamed about, or to dread doing and fearing consequence.</p><p>2. A non returner has uprooted greed and aversion, they're also not capable of doing things for which they would feel shame or dread wrong doing. </p><p><br /></p><p>So really, the only class of "noble disciples" who need to possess the factors of hiri and otappa (shame and dread) are stream enterers and once returners.</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Conclusion</h1><p>ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones, not "noble disciple" (an enlightened being of 4 classes).</p><p>A disciple MAY be noble, but from the many sutta passages similar to this passage AN 7.67, it's obviously addressed to a majority of people who are not enlightened and still working on purifying their mind and actions.</p><p>I've recently been working on Chinese Agama translations to English with google translate, and guess what? </p><p>google translate and other AI engines wrongly translates the Chinese version of 'ariya savaka' as "noble disciple".</p><p>AI is only as good as the source it's trained on, and if most translators are wrong, your output is going to be wrong.</p><p>It's important to do things correctly when it's this straightforward and obvious.</p><p>If you don't notify translators and voice your opinion, then the problems are only to get worse.</p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-26334345824035271642024-02-13T05:32:00.000-08:002024-02-13T05:36:27.113-08:00AN 7.69 Buddha only allows ariya noble ones to ordain as monks? Really?<p> </p><div dir="ltr" gmail_original="1"><h1 style="text-align: left;">AN 7.69 Buddha only allows ariya to ordain as monks? Really?</h1><div>
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/an7.69/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin">AN 7.69: Pāricchattakasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)</a> <br /></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="background-color: #fff8f3; color: #201b13; font-family: "Skolar PE Variable", "Noto Serif", "Skolar Sans PE", "Noto Sans", serif;">Such is the majesty of the Shady Orchid Tree.</span></div><div><p style="background-color: #fff8f3; color: #201b13; font-family: "Skolar PE Variable", "Noto Serif", "Skolar Sans PE", "Noto Sans", serif; hyphens: auto; margin: 0.75em 0px 0px;"><span class="gmail-segment" id="gmail-an7.69:8.1" style="display: grid;"><span class="gmail-translation" lang="en" style="grid-column: 1;"><span class="gmail-text">In the same way, when a <span style="font-size: x-large;">noble disciple</span> plans to go forth from the lay life to homelessness, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when its leaves turn brown.</span></span></span></p>
</div></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">B. Bodhi makes same mistake</h1><div>(1) “So too, bhikkhus, when a noble disciple intends to go forth from
the household life into homelessness, on that occasion he is one whose
foliage has turned yellow, like the Tāvatiṃsa devas’ pāricchattaka coral
tree.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">MA 2: BDK translation, Agama chinese parallel, same problem</h1><p><a href="https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/bdk/index.html#2">https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/bdk/index.html#2</a></p><p><span style="font-size: 16px;">Again, [when the buds of] the coral tree of the thirty-three gods have opened up and resemble bowls, the thirty-three gods are happy and rejoice:</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">“The coral tree wil soon be in ful bloom!”</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">When the coral tree is in ful bloom, the radiance it emits, the color it reflects, and the fragrance it emits spread a hundred leagues around.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Then, for the four months of the summer season the thirty-three gods amuse themselves equipped with the five types of divine sense pleasure.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">This is [how] the thirty-three gods assemble and amuse themselves beneath their coral tree.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">It is just the same with the noble disciple.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">When thinking of leaving the household life, the noble disciple is reckoned as having withered leaves, like the withered leaves of the coral tree of the thirty-three gods.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Again, the <b style="background-color: #fcff01;">noble disciple</b> shaves off [his] hair and beard, dons the yel ow robe, and, out of faith, leaves the household life, becomes homeless, and practices the path.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">At this time the noble disciple is reckoned as one whose leaves have fal en, like the fal ing of the leaves of the coral tree of the thirty-three gods.</span></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Conclusion</h1><h1 style="text-align: left;">Ariya savaka = Disciple of the Noble Ones, not necessarily a noble one themself.</h1><div>Pali and Chinese both ambiguous in how ariya-savaka can be interpreted, but logic and context dictate there's only one way to translate it correctly if you're going to translate it consistently everywhere.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-83339515756838753212024-02-06T09:50:00.000-08:002024-02-07T03:06:21.860-08:00What is ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: [an arahant] liberated both ways?<h5 style="font-family: Arial;">What is ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: liberated both ways?</h5><p><span style="font-size: 16px;">short answer: An arahant who has not only 4 jhānas, but also formless attainments.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">An arahant who is only wisdom liberated (pañña vimutti) only has 4 jhānas.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">comprehensive answer:</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn064/index.html#64" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>64</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> categorically states arhantship or nonreturner not possible without 4 jhānas</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn064/index.html#64.7" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>64.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (Seven paths for cutting 5 lower fetters are the 4 jhānas, and first 3 formless attainments)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn064/index.html#64.8" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>64.8</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (difference between ceto-vimutti and pañña vimutti)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">all the suttas (10) that talk about 'liberated' both ways</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: liberated both ways (10 suttas)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an02/index.html#2.48" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>2.48</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> just talks about assemblies with true Dharma and spirituality and those without</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an07/index.html#7.56" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>7.56</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> talks about how arahant after death can't be seen by humans or gods</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an08/index.html#8.22" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>8.22</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> just list of 7, when gods tell Buddha about type of assembly</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an09/index.html#9.47" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>9.47</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> need all 9 attainments to be freed both ways in "definitive sense"</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">The first 8 attainments only "qualified sense"</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/dn/main/dn15/index.html#15" style="font-size: 16px;">DN <sup>15</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> liberated both ways must have all 8 vimokkha (which includes formless)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/dn/main/dn28/index.html#28" style="font-size: 16px;">DN <sup>28</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> just named as part of list of 7</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/dn/main/dn33/index.html#33" style="font-size: 16px;">DN <sup>33</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> just named as part of list of 7 persons worthy of a religious donation</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn065/index.html#65" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>65</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> doesn't shed any light</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn070/index.html#70" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>70</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> explicit in saying they have to have formless attainments</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo ubhatobhāgavimutto?</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">And what person is freed both ways?</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn070/index.html#70" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>70</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> peaceful liberations (santā vimokkhā, or vihāra) is a synonym for formless attainmnents, not 4 jhānas)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn070/index.html#70" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>70</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> pañña vimutti liberated by wisdom doesn't have formless attainment</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo paññāvimutto?</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">And what person is freed by wisdom?</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te na kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">It’s a person who does not have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">From other suttas like </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn064/index.html#64" style="font-size: 16px;">MN <sup>64</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;">, we know 4 jhānas are non negotiable requiremnets for arahantship</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><a href="https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn08/index.html#8.7" style="font-size: 16px;">SN <sup>8.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> of 500 arahants, 60 freed both ways</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">“There is nothing, Sāriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">Imesañhi, sāriputta, pañcannaṁ bhikkhusatānaṁ saṭṭhi bhikkhū tevijjā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū chaḷabhiññā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū ubhatobhāgavimuttā, atha itare paññāvimuttā”ti.</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">For of these five hundred monks,</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">sixty have the three knowledges,</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">sixty have the six direct knowledges,</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">sixty are freed both ways,</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">and the rest are freed by wisdom.”</span></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">10 suttas talk about this term</h1><p><a href="https://find.dhamma.gift/result/ubhato.vimutt_suttanta_pali_10-20.html">https://find.dhamma.gift/result/ubhato.vimutt_suttanta_pali_10-20.html</a></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">AN 2.48 doesn't shed any light</h1><p>just talks about assemblies with true Dharma and spirituality and those without</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">AN 7.56 doesn't shed any light</h1><p>https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhato.*vimutt&q=an7.56#7.1</p><p>talks about how arahant after death can't be seen by humans or gods</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">AN 8.22 just list of 7, when gods tell Buddha about type of assembly</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="8.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Anacchariyaṁ kho pana, bhante, saṅghe nimantite devatā upasaṅkamitvā ārocenti: <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">It’s not unusual for deities to come to me when the Saṅgha has been invited and announce:</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="8.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">‘asuko, gahapati, bhikkhu <b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimutto asuko paññāvimutto asuko kāyasakkhī asuko diṭṭhippatto asuko saddhāvimutt</b>o asuko dhammānusārī asuko saddhānusārī asuko sīlavā kalyāṇadhammo asuko dussīlo pāpadhammo’ti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">‘Householder, that mendicant is freed both ways. That one is freed by wisdom. That one is a personal witness. That one is attained to view. That one is freed by faith. That one is a follower of teachings. That one is a follower by faith. That one is ethical, of good character. That one is unethical, of bad character.’</span></span></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">AN 9.47 need all 9 attainments to be freed both ways in "definitive sense"</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="3.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">The first 8 attainments only "qualified sense"</span><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;"><br /></span><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="3.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṁ tathā tathā naṁ kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṁ pajānāti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. And they understand that with wisdom.</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="3.3" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, <b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimutt</b>o vutto bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed both ways in a definitive sense.”</span></span></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">DN 15 liberated both ways must have all 8 vimokkha (which includes formless)</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="36.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Yato kho, ānanda, bhikkhu ime aṭṭha vimokkhe anulomampi samāpajjati, paṭilomampi samāpajjati, anulomapaṭilomampi samāpajjati, yatthicchakaṁ yadicchakaṁ yāvaticchakaṁ samāpajjatipi vuṭṭhātipi. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">When a mendicant enters into and withdraws from these eight liberations—in forward order, in reverse order, and in forward and reverse order—wherever they wish, whenever they wish, and for as long as they wish;</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="36.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Āsavānañca khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharati, ayaṁ vuccatānanda, bhikkhu <b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimutt</b>o. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">and when they realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements, they’re called a mendicant who is freed both ways.</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="36.3" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Imāya ca, ānanda, <b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimuttiyā aññā ubhatobhāgavimutt</b>i uttaritarā vā paṇītatarā vā natthī”ti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">And, Ānanda, there is no other freedom both ways that is better or finer than this.”</span></span></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">DN 28 just named as part of list of 7</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="8.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">And moreover, sir, how the Buddha teaches the description of individuals is unsurpassable.</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="8.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Sattime, bhante, puggalā. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">There are these seven individuals.</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="8.3" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;"><b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">Ubhatobhāgavimutto paññāvimutto kāyasakkhi diṭṭhippatto saddhāvimutt</b>o dhammānusārī saddhānusārī. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">One freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of teachings, a follower by faith.</span></span></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">DN 33 doesn't shed any light</h1><div><span face="sans-serif" id="2.3.43" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Satta puggalā dakkhiṇeyyā—<a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru"><em>Seven persons worthy of a religious donation:</em></span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="2.3.44" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;"><b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimutto, paññāvimutto, kāyasakkhi, diṭṭhippatto, saddhāvimutt</b>o, dhammānusārī, saddhānusārī. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">one freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of teachings, and a follower by faith.</span></span></div><div><span face="sans-serif" style="color: #5a5a5a;"><span style="font-size: 17.6px;"><br /></span></span><h1 style="text-align: left;">MN 65 doesn't shed any light</h1><br />https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhato.*vimutt&q=mn65#11.2<div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /><h1>MN 70 explicit in saying they have to have formless attainments</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="15.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo <b class="match finder" style="color: #902a07;">ubhatobhāgavimutt</b>o? <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">And what person is freed both ways?</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="15.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.</span></span></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">MN 70 pañña vimutti liberated by wisdom doesn't have formless attainment</h1><p><span face="sans-serif" id="16.1" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo paññāvimutto? <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">And what person is freed by wisdom?</span></span><span face="sans-serif" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"></span><span face="sans-serif" id="16.2" style="background-color: #fdfdfd; color: #5a5a5a; font-size: 17.6px;"><span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" color="var(--off-black)" lang="pi" style="display: block;">Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te na kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. <a class="text-decoration-none" style="color: var(--blue);"> </a></span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">It’s a person who does not have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.</span></span></p><p>From other suttas, we know 4 jhānas are non negotiable requiremnets for arahantship</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">SN 8.7 of 500 arahants, 60 freed both ways</h1><p>https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhatobh%C4%81gavimutt%C4%81&q=sn8.7#4.4</p><p><span id="4.3"><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">“There is nothing, Sāriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize. </span></span></p><p><span>
</span>
<span id="4.4">
<span class="pli-lang inputscript-ISOPali" lang="pi">Imesañhi, sāriputta, pañcannaṁ bhikkhusatānaṁ saṭṭhi bhikkhū tevijjā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū chaḷabhiññā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū <b class="match finder">ubhatobhāgavimuttā</b>, atha itare paññāvimuttā”ti. <a class="text-decoration-none"> </a></span></span></p><p><span><span class="rus-lang" lang="ru">For
of these five hundred monks, sixty have the three knowledges, sixty
have the six direct knowledges, sixty are freed both ways, and the rest
are freed by wisdom.” </span></span></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p></div></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-61114644502576029072024-02-04T09:12:00.000-08:002024-02-04T11:53:08.578-08:00🔗📝Upasika Kee Nanayon<p> </p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Ebook of her talks</h1><div id="tophead" style="background-color: #f0f0f0;">
<h3>4👑☸ Cattāri Ariya-saccaṃ 四聖諦</h3>
</div><div class="sticky">
<a href="http://lucid24.org/index.html"><abbr title="4 noble truths, Lucid24.org home page">4👑☸</abbr></a> → <a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/index.html"><abbr title="EBT wikipedia, also serves as lucid24.org website index">EBpedia📚</abbr></a> → <b> <a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html"><abbr title="!upasika kee nanayon">Up.K.Nanayon</abbr></a> </b> </div><p>
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#0">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>0</sup></a> - An Unentangled Knowing <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#1">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>1</sup></a> - PART I: Looking Inward <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#2">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>2</sup></a> - Part II: Breath Meditation Condensed <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#3">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>3</sup></a> - Part III: Going Against the Flow <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#4">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>4</sup></a> - Part IV: A Good Dose of Dhamma for Meditators When They Are Ill <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#5">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>5</sup></a> - Part V Reading the Mind <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#6">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>6</sup></a> - Part VI: Pure & Simple <br />
<a href="http://lucid24.org/tped/u/upasika-kee-nanayon/index.html#7">Up.K.Nanayon <sup>7</sup></a> - Glossary <br />
</p><h4><a href="https://archive.org/details/lucid24.org-ez-reader-library-of-books"><abbr title="external offsite link">🔗📚epub and mobi versions</abbr></a></h4><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">Audio recordings of some of her talks</h1><div><a href="https://archive.org/details/upasika-kee-nanayon-audio">https://archive.org/details/upasika-kee-nanayon-audio</a></div><div><br /></div><div><span class="style-scope yt-formatted-string" dir="auto"></span><span class="style-scope yt-formatted-string" dir="auto">Samaneri Jayasāra recordings:</span></div><a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19wvVkqnNa1YFKg6RnRd4tAFD5K_RoBgG">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19wvVkqnNa1YFKg6RnRd4tAFD5K_RoBgG<br /></a><div><br /></div><div>a few more on youtube</div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=upasika+kee+nanayon">https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=upasika+kee+nanayon</a></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-35268992227150729352024-02-04T04:28:00.000-08:002024-02-04T04:34:39.117-08:00SN 36.11 vāca is vocalized speech, not mental talk: vocalization ceases in first jhāna, not vitakka<p> The Ajahn Brahm, Sujato and Vism. camp have a difficult time explaining what SN 36.11 means when it says speech (vāca) ceases in first jhāna.</p><h3 id="flink-5" style="font-family: Arial;">(9 gradual vūpasama/stillings, same as nirodho list)</h3><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">atha kho, bhikkhu, mayā</div></td><td>“And I have also {taught}</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Anu-pubba-saṅkhārānaṃ vūpasamo akkhāto.</div></td><td>Step-by-step-co-doings being stilled.</td></tr></tbody></table><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">(in 4 jhānas one can perceive rūpa ✅ 🚶)</h4><table><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">1. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa</div></td><td>1. (with) first jhāna attained,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">🚫🗣️💬 vācā vūpasantā hoti.</div></td><td>🚫🗣️💬 vocalization-of-speech has been stilled,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">2. dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa</div></td><td>2. (with) second jhāna attained,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">🚫(V&V💭) vitakka-vicārā vūpasantā hoti.</div></td><td>🚫(V&V💭) directed-thought-&-evaluation has been stilled,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">3. tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa</div></td><td>3. (with) third jhāna attained,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">🚫😁 pīti vūpasantā hoti.</div></td><td>🚫😁 rapture has has been stilled,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">4. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa</div></td><td>4. (with) fourth jhāna attained,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">🚫🌬️😤 assāsa-passāsā vūpasantā hoti.</div></td><td>🚫🌬️😤 in-breath-out-breath has been stilled,</td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">1. Does it need to be said deaf people can't hear sounds in first jhāna?</h1><p>1. If you're already disembodied in (their corrupt redefinition of) first jhāna, 5 senses shut off and unable to speak, why would the Buddha say in SN 36.11 that speech ceases? </p><p>It's like saying in first jhāna, a deaf man can't hear sounds. A deaf man can't hear sounds anywhere, any time. It's a useless thing to say they can't hear in first jhāna. </p><p>Therefore, the first jhāna is not a disembodied state where the mind is divorced from 5 senses of the body.</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">2. So what can we do? Let's redefine another important basic term!</h1><p>2. So what can Sujato and Brahm do, faced with this conundrum? Their usual bag of tricks. </p><p>Redefine vāca to not be vocalized speech, but mental talk, unvocalized verbal thoughts.</p><p>If they can redefine body as "not physical body", and "verbal thought (vitakka)" as "not verbal thought, but placing a mind on a visual kasina", that has a cascading effect where they have to start redefining a bunch of other terms.</p><p>So now vāca in first jhāna according to them means verbal thoughts.</p><p>This is completely incoherent. </p><p>In an oral tradition, sati memorizes Dhamma in the form of vitakka, a communicable verbal linguistic language communicated by means of vocalization (vāca), hearing, and memorizing. </p><p>AN 5.26 shows all of this going in on, for first jhāna context.</p><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for Freedom</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.1" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - First jhāna possible while hearing live dhamma talk</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.1.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.1.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.2" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - Giving a dhamma talk leads to himself getting jhāna</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.2.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.2.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.3" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.3</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - Reciting memorized dhamma passage leads to jhāna</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.3.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.3.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.4" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - first jhāna possible while thinking and pondering memorized dhamma</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.4.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.4.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.5" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.5</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - No V&V, undirected samādhi into 2nd jhāna or higher</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><p><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.5.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.5.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span> </p><p><br /></p><p>You can't have vāca redefined as 'unvocalized mental talk' in SN 36.11 and have it make sense in AN 5.26. Speech needs to be vocal, thought needs to be verbal linguistic mental talk.</p><p><br /></p><p>Another sutta with first jhāna context, </p><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">● <a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an07/index.html#7.61">AN <sup>7.61</sup></a> <b>Pacalāyamāna</b>: Nodding Off</h4><p><span style="font-size: 16px;">Buddha teaches Moggallana 7 ways to fight off drowsiness</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (1. don’t attend to the perception that made you drowsy)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (2. Recall dhamma using </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/vitakka/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">V&V💭</a><span style="font-size: 16px;">, thinking and evaluation, and upekkha)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="background-color: #fcff01;"><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (3. Recite that dhamma out loud, vocally)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></span><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (4. Pull your earlobes and rub your limbs)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (5. Stand up, wash eyes with water, look at stars in sky)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (6. STED </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/asnd/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">ASND 🌕🌟</a><span style="font-size: 16px;">: luminosity perception all day all night)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (7. Start walking meditation)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (Lie down in lion posture as last resort)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (don’t sociaize with lay people too much, causes restlessness)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (don’t say confrontational things)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (Buddha praises secluded meditation areas)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> (conclusion: brief summary of path to arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><br />In the 7 ways to ward off drowsiness, #3 involves vāca, vocalized speech, reciting Dharma.<div>That's distinctly different from #2, mentally reciting the Dhamma, energetically less intensive than vocalization. The 7 steps get progressively more energetic.</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">Vāca (pāḷi), Vox (latin), Voice / vocalization (English) have common Indo Euro root</h1><div><br /></div><div>Mental speech is not vocalized speech. </div><div>A normal person can't hear mental talk.</div><div>Vocal cords need to vibrate and emit sound for someone to hear it.</div><div>This is true in pāli, true in latin, true in English, true in any oral tradition using the basic unambiguous fundamental terms to denote the difference between speech, language, and linguistic mental talk. </div><div><br /></div><div>You can't arbitrarily redefine vocal speech to mean mental speech,</div><div>and you can't redefine linguistic verbal thought into "no verbal thought, just placing mind on a kasina". </div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><h1 style="text-align: left;">Suttas and vinaya (monastic rules of discipline) become incoherent and unenforceable</h1><div>If you allow Sujato and Brahm to have their way of redefining important key words to justify their corrupt redefinition of jhāna, </div><div>The entire collection of suttas and vinaya becomes broken and incoherent.</div><div>The Buddha frequently contrasts kāya (physical body) action against the actions of vāca (speech), and mano (mental) action.</div><div>They are 3 distinctly different types of actions with 3 distinctly different karmic consequences.</div><div><br /></div><div>In Sujato and Brahm world, you can't tell what kind of action it is, you can't enact any kind of monastic rule. </div><div><br /></div><div>This article I wrote focused on their ambiguation of kāya, but the same example shows how speech also needs to be differentiated from thought.</div><div><br /><div><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2022/05/mn-56-kaya-needs-to-be-ones-physical.html" style="color: #8a2e2e; text-decoration-line: none;">MN 56 Bob punches Carl in the face - A Primer on why 3 types of actions are distinct (you can't redefine kāya as 'mind'!)</a></h3></div><div><br style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 14.85px;" /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-7456966186756218172024-02-03T12:49:00.000-08:002024-02-03T12:49:13.461-08:00SN 35.247 Chappāṇak-opama: six animals, nice illustration<p> </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgyAW4WE6RkMf7NayKm-9Lap2zNGl8vxIAHhGpxjUPYFB8gtALsEQszd6WunIWMJXBsesO-YbzKfOHYn8_5_pfm1e_nIjPXCcHKMpHpqYc-VyYx_bwfXImECX3I-MVgLp5LNGFiddtedluwDTWpsXP8lxueDYbM1Zak5IXUMbcwVewlRdxpqw8PKL5l978/s1440/unnamed.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1440" data-original-width="1085" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgyAW4WE6RkMf7NayKm-9Lap2zNGl8vxIAHhGpxjUPYFB8gtALsEQszd6WunIWMJXBsesO-YbzKfOHYn8_5_pfm1e_nIjPXCcHKMpHpqYc-VyYx_bwfXImECX3I-MVgLp5LNGFiddtedluwDTWpsXP8lxueDYbM1Zak5IXUMbcwVewlRdxpqw8PKL5l978/w301-h400/unnamed.jpg" width="301" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px; font-style: italic;">Illustration by Barry Bruner, Tricyle Magazine Summer 2007</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px; font-style: italic;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px; font-style: italic;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px;"><i><a href="https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn35/index.html#35.247">https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn35/index.html#35.247</a></i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 14px;"><i><br /></i></span></p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">SN 35.247 Chappāṇakopama: The Simile of Six Animals</h2><p><br style="font-size: 16px;" /></p><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">247. Chappāṇakopamasutta</div></td><td>247. The Simile of Six Animals</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso arugatto pakkagatto saravanaṃ paviseyya.</div></td><td>“monks, suppose a person with wounded and festering limbs was to enter a thicket of thorny reeds.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tassa kusakaṇṭakā ceva pāde vijjheyyuṃ, sarapattāni ca gattāni vilekheyyuṃ.</div></td><td>The kusa thorns would pierce their feet, and the reed leaves would scratch their limbs.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evañhi so, bhikkhave, puriso bhiyyoso mattāya tatonidānaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvediyetha.</div></td><td>And that would cause that person to experience even more pain and distress.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evameva kho, bhikkhave, idhekacco bhikkhu gāmagato vā araññagato vā labhati vattāraṃ:</div></td><td>In the same way, some monk goes to a village or a wilderness and gets scolded:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘ayañca so āyasmā evaṃkārī evaṃsamācāro asucigāmakaṇṭako’ti.</div></td><td>‘This venerable, acting like this, behaving like this, is a filthy village thorn.’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Taṃ kaṇṭakoti iti viditvā saṃvaro ca asaṃvaro ca veditabbo.</div></td><td>Understanding that they’re a thorn, they should understand restraint and lack of restraint.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kathañca, bhikkhave, asaṃvaro hoti?</div></td><td>And how is someone unrestrained?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā piyarūpe rūpe adhimuccati, appiyarūpe rūpe byāpajjati, anupaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati parittacetaso.</div></td><td>Take a monk who sees a sight with their eyes. If it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.</div></td><td>And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Sotena saddaṃ sutvā …</div></td><td>When they hear a sound with their ears …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā …</div></td><td>When they smell an odor with their nose …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā …</div></td><td>When they taste a flavor with their tongue …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā …</div></td><td>When they feel a touch with their body …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme adhimuccati, appiyarūpe dhamme byāpajjati, anupaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati parittacetaso,</div></td><td>When they know a thought with their mind, if it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body unestablished and a limited heart.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.</div></td><td>And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso chappāṇake gahetvā nānāvisaye nānāgocare daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>Suppose a person was to catch six animals, with diverse territories and feeding grounds, and tie them up with a strong rope.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ahiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>They’d catch a snake,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Susumāraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>a crocodile,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Pakkhiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>a bird,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kukkuraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>a dog,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Siṅgālaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>a jackal,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Makkaṭaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>and a monkey,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Daḷhāya rajjuyā bandhitvā majjhe gaṇṭhiṃ karitvā ossajjeyya.</div></td><td>tie each up with a strong rope, then tie a knot in the middle and let them loose.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Atha kho, te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā nānāvisayā nānāgocarā sakaṃ sakaṃ gocaravisayaṃ āviñcheyyuṃ—</div></td><td>Then those six animals with diverse domains and territories would each pull towards their own domain and territory.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">ahi āviñcheyya ‘vammikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, susumāro āviñcheyya ‘udakaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, pakkhī āviñcheyya ‘ākāsaṃ ḍessāmī’ti, kukkuro āviñcheyya ‘gāmaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, siṅgālo āviñcheyya ‘sīvathikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, makkaṭo āviñcheyya ‘vanaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti.</div></td><td>The snake would pull one way, thinking ‘I’m going into an anthill!’ The crocodile would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the water!’ The bird would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m flying into the sky!’ The dog would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the village!’ The jackal would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the charnel ground!’ The monkey would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the jungle!’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Yadā kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā jhattā assu kilantā, atha kho yo nesaṃ pāṇakānaṃ balavataro assa tassa te anuvatteyyuṃ, anuvidhāyeyyuṃ vasaṃ gaccheyyuṃ.</div></td><td>When those six animals became exhausted and worn out, the strongest of them would get their way, and they’d all have to submit to their control.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yassa kassaci bhikkhuno kāyagatāsati abhāvitā abahulīkatā, taṃ cakkhu āviñchati manāpiyesu rūpesu, amanāpiyā rūpā paṭikūlā honti … pe …</div></td><td>In the same way, when a monk has not developed or cultivated rememberfulness of the body, their eye pulls towards pleasant sights, but is put off by unpleasant sights. Their ear … nose … tongue … body …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">mano āviñchati manāpiyesu dhammesu, amanāpiyā dhammā paṭikūlā honti.</div></td><td>mind pulls towards pleasant thoughts, but is put off by unpleasant thoughts.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, asaṃvaro hoti.</div></td><td>This is how someone is unrestrained.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Kathañca, bhikkhave, saṃvaro hoti?</div></td><td>And how is someone restrained?</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā piyarūpe rūpe nādhimuccati, appiyarūpe rūpe na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso,</div></td><td>Take a monk who sees a sight with their eyes. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body established and a limitless heart.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti … pe …</div></td><td>And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā … pe …</div></td><td>They hear a sound … smell an odor … taste a flavor … feel a touch …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme nādhimuccati, appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso,</div></td><td>know a thought with their mind. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body established and a limitless heart.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.</div></td><td>And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso chappāṇake gahetvā nānāvisaye nānāgocare daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>Suppose a person was to catch six animals, with diverse territories and feeding grounds, and tie them up with a strong rope.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Ahiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>They’d catch a snake,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Susumāraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>a crocodile,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Pakkhiṃ gahetvā … pe …</div></td><td>a bird,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kukkuraṃ gahetvā …</div></td><td>a dog,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">siṅgālaṃ gahetvā …</div></td><td>a jackal,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">makkaṭaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya.</div></td><td>and a monkey,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Daḷhāya rajjuyā bandhitvā daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā upanibandheyya.</div></td><td>tie each up with a strong rope, then tether them to a strong post or pillar.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Atha kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā nānāvisayā nānāgocarā sakaṃ sakaṃ gocaravisayaṃ āviñcheyyuṃ—</div></td><td>Then those six animals with diverse domains and territories would each pull towards their own domain and territory.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">ahi āviñcheyya ‘vammikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, susumāro āviñcheyya ‘udakaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, pakkhī āviñcheyya ‘ākāsaṃ ḍessāmī’ti, kukkuro āviñcheyya ‘gāmaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, siṅgālo āviñcheyya ‘sīvathikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, makkaṭo āviñcheyya ‘vanaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti.</div></td><td>The snake would pull one way, thinking ‘I’m going into an anthill!’ The crocodile would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the water!’ The bird would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m flying into the sky!’ The dog would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the village!’ The jackal would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the charnel ground!’ The monkey would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the jungle!’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Yadā kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā jhattā assu kilantā, atha tameva khīlaṃ vā thambhaṃ vā upatiṭṭheyyuṃ, upanisīdeyyuṃ, upanipajjeyyuṃ.</div></td><td>When those six animals became exhausted and worn out, they’d stand or sit or lie down right by that post or pillar.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yassa kassaci bhikkhuno kāyagatāsati bhāvitā bahulīkatā, taṃ cakkhu nāviñchati manāpiyesu rūpesu, amanāpiyā rūpā nappaṭikūlā honti … pe … jivhā nāviñchati manāpiyesu rasesu … pe …</div></td><td>In the same way, when a monk has developed and cultivated rememberfulness of the body, their eye doesn’t pull towards pleasant sights, and isn’t put off by unpleasant sights. Their ear … nose … tongue … body …</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">mano nāviñchati manāpiyesu dhammesu, amanāpiyā dhammā nappaṭikūlā honti.</div></td><td>mind doesn’t pull towards pleasant thoughts, and isn’t put off by unpleasant thoughts.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, saṃvaro hoti.</div></td><td>This is how someone is restrained.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘Daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā’ti kho, bhikkhave, kāyagatāya satiyā etaṃ adhivacanaṃ.</div></td><td>‘A strong post or pillar’ is a term for rememberfulness of the body.</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Tasmātiha vo, bhikkhave, evaṃ sikkhitabbaṃ:</div></td><td>So you should train like this:</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">‘kāyagatā no sati bhāvitā bhavissati bahulīkatā yānīkatā vatthukatā anuṭṭhitā paricitā susamāraddhā’ti.</div></td><td>‘We will develop rememberfulness of the body. We’ll cultivate it, make it our vehicle and our basis, keep it up, consolidate it, and properly implement it.’</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">Evañhi kho, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban”ti.</div></td><td>That’s how you should train.”</td></tr></tbody></table><p><span style="font-size: 14px;"><i><br /></i></span></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-88039003181273446472024-01-29T18:59:00.000-08:002024-01-29T19:05:04.097-08:00🔗📝SN 41.8 Jain founder, Buddha's first jhāna, Jain's first jhāna scripture<h1 style="text-align: left;"> Jain's Jhāna scripture excerpted from Gabriel's article</h1><p>Why should we assume that Jains practiced a meditation with thought and investigation?</p><p> Arbel (2016, 34) observes that of the Buddhist meditation vocabulary </p><p> only vitakka and vicāra appear in ancient Jain texts.</p><p> The Jain Tattvārtha Sūtra, describing different kinds of dhyāna (Pāli Jhāna),</p><p>says in sutras 9.43-44 that </p><p><span style="background-color: #d9ead3;">vitarka (Pāli vitakka) is scriptural knowledge (śruta) and that </span></p><p><span style="background-color: #d9ead3;">vicāra is a shifting between the object, its word, and its activity (Tatia 1994, 242). </span></p><p>In 9.42 it also states,</p><p>however, that there is meditation without vicāra.</p><p> It has not been sufficiently researched how old the ancient Jain literature is, </p><p> but this could be another hint that meditation with vitakka and vicāra </p><p> were common among ascetics of the Buddha’s time.</p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Frank comment</h1><p>That's exactly how it works in the EBT.</p><p>sati ("mindfulness") remembers Dharma scriptural language in the form of verbal thoughts (vitakka), a communicable language.</p><h4 style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">SN 46.3 (7sb☀️)</h4><p><span style="font-size: 16px;">This is one of the most important models in the EBT. You should have it memorized and know it by heart forwards and backwards. This is the canonical definition of "bhāvana", meditation, every method of meditation that generates samadhi and jhanas, uses this model. It appears as part of many 16 APS suttas, it often appears without the explicit "bojjhanga" suffix attached, but a partial causal sequence is unmistakable. </span></p><table><tbody><tr><td class="calibre12">(implied: pamojja and pīti would result from contact with inspiring monks)</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(0. 👂 Bhikkhūnaṃ dhammaṃ sutvā)</div></td><td class="calibre12">0. 👂 listen to Dhamma [teaching] from a monk [and memorize it]</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;"><span style="background-color: #fff0ff;">(1. 🐘 Sati: taṃ Dhammaṃ anus-sarati anu-</span><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">vitakketi</span><span style="background-color: #fff0ff;">)</span></div></td><td class="calibre12">1. 🐘 that Dhamma [teaching] (he) recollects and <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">thinks </span>about</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;"><span style="background-color: #fff0ff;">(2. 💭 Dhamma-vicaya: taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya, pa-vicinati pa-</span><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">vicarati </span><span style="background-color: #fff0ff;">pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati )</span></div></td><td class="calibre12">2. 💭 that Dhamma discerning; he discriminates, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">evaluates</span>, investigates</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(3. 🏹 Vīriya: āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ a-sallīnaṃ.)</div></td><td class="calibre12">3. 🏹 his aroused vigor is not-slackening</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(4. 😁 Pīti: Āraddha-vīriyassa uppajjati pīti nir-āmisā,)</div></td><td class="calibre12">4. 😁 his aroused vigor leads to arising of rapture not-carnal (of jhana)</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(5. 🌊 Passaddhi: Pīti-man-assa, kāyo-pi passambhati, cittam-pi passambhati )</div></td><td class="calibre12">5. 🌊 with enraptured-mind, his body becomes pacified, his mind becomes pacified</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(6. 🌄 Samādhi: Passaddha-kāyassa sukhino, cittaṃ samādhiyati.)</div></td><td class="calibre12">6. 🌄 with pacified body, he is in pleasure, mind becomes undistractable and lucid.</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(7. 👁 Upekkha: so tathā-samāhitaṃ cittaṃ, sādhukaṃ ajjh-upekkhitā hoti)</div></td><td class="calibre12">7. 👁 he of such undistractable & lucid mind, thoroughly looks-upon-it-with-equanimity</td></tr><tr class="calibre11"><td class="calibre12"><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">(7 types of fruits, Nirvana)</div></td><td class="calibre12">Seven different levels of awakening results from proper practice of 7sb.<br /><br /></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">vitakka role in vāca (speech) and oral traditions</h1><p>I don't know if Gabriel read any of my blog articles on SN 41.8, </p><p>the earliest one I could find on my blog predates his article by more than a year.</p><p>He's never communicated with me outside of suttacentral, </p><p>so I'm assuming he made his findings independently of mine, which is great!</p><p>It means there are sensible people out there who read suttas carefully,</p><p>come to a rational conclusion that in Indian oral traditions,</p><p>vitakka & vicāra are verbal thoughts.</p><p>It has to be that way for an oral tradition to work. </p><p>If vitakka and vicāra were as Sujato and Vism. claim, "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina),</p><p>You couldn't build vaci-sankhara (speech fabrications) into vāca (vocalized speech).</p><p>You'd just have babbling idiots mumbling incoherently to each other. </p><p><br /></p><p>I browsed through the thread on suttacentral where Gabriel shared his article,</p><p>Sujato was not tagged, but pretended he didn't see it and didn't participate.</p><p>Just as he pretended not to see all the articles I posted on suttacentral from 2017-2019</p><p>examining the EBT suttas and other literature that incontrovertibly show that vitakka must be verbal thought,</p><p>not "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina).</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Frank's collection of articles on SN 41.8</h1><p><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Saturday, January 25, 2020</span></p><p>vitakka and vicara are essential words/concepts in basic human communication </p><p><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/01/vitakka-and-vicara-are-essential.html">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/01/vitakka-and-vicara-are-essential.html</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Tuesday, February 11, 2020</p><p>Concise Proof that Vitakka and Vicāra of first jhāna means 'thinking & evaluation' </p><p><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/02/concise-proof-that-vitakka-and-vicara.html">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/02/concise-proof-that-vitakka-and-vicara.html</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Thursday, June 11, 2020</p><p>SN 41.8 Jain founder doesn’t believe 2nd jhana possible, B. Sujato interpretation of vitakka illogical and incoherent </p><p><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/06/sn-418-jain-founder-doesnt-believe-2nd.html">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/06/sn-418-jain-founder-doesnt-believe-2nd.html</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Friday, October 1, 2021</p><p>SN 41.8 non Buddhist doing 1st jhana, MN 36 Buddha as a boy (was non Buddhist) doing first jhana </p><p><a href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/10/sn-418-non-buddhist-doing-1st-jhana-mn.html">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/10/sn-418-non-buddhist-doing-1st-jhana-mn.html</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Gabriel's article on Jain first jhāna (full article)</h1><p>THE FIRST JHĀNA, AN ASSIMILATED JAIN MEDITATION PRACTICE</p><p>https://www.academia.edu/45145533/The_First_Jhana_an_Assimilated_Jain_Meditation_Practice</p><p><a href="https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/the-first-jhana-as-an-assimilated-jain-meditation-practice/19263/30">https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/the-first-jhana-as-an-assimilated-jain-meditation-practice/19263/30</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Gabriel Ellis, PhD cand. Warsaw University, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">February 18th 2021</span></p><p>Abstract:</p><p> The article explores the hypothesis that the first Buddhist Jhāna was not a novel</p><p>discovery of the Buddha but a meditative practice assimilated from techniques available at the</p><p>Buddha’s time.</p><p> Some hints point to a Jain source, others to an early Buddhist emphasis on the</p><p>second Jhāna upward.</p><p> The findings are inconclusive but maintain the hypothesis as valid.</p><p><br /></p><p>To recall, the culmination of Buddhist meditation or Samādhi </p><p>is typically described as having four progressive stages, the Jhānas.</p><p>The first Jhāna has four factors:</p><p>thought (vitakka),</p><p>investigation (vicāra), </p><p>rapture (pīti), and </p><p>happiness (sukha).</p><p><br /></p><p> Generally, the Buddhist tradition assumes that the Jhānas </p><p> are a novel contribution of the Buddha </p><p>(see for a further discussion Arbel 2016).</p><p>In SN 41.8 Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta – commonly known as the Jain master and Buddha’s contemporary Mahāvīra – </p><p>claims that there is no avitakka avicāra samādhi, </p><p>i.e. a state of meditation without thought and investigation, </p><p>and that it would be like catching the wind in a net.</p><p><br /></p><p>Mahāvīra doesn’t mention a Samādhi with thought and investigation, but the plausible</p><p>implication of his incredulous comment is that he is very familiar with its practice, </p><p>or at the very least knows of other religious professionals who practice it.</p><p> What Buddhist texts call the ‘first Jhāna’ would, therefore, </p><p> be no Buddhist invention at all </p><p> but a meditation practice available to other ascetic practitioners as well.</p><p><br /></p><p>Why should we assume that Jains practiced a meditation with thought and investigation?</p><p> Arbel (2016, 34) observes that of the Buddhist meditation vocabulary </p><p> only vitakka and vicāra appear in ancient Jain texts.</p><p> The Jain Tattvārtha Sūtra, describing different kinds of dhyāna (Pāli Jhāna),</p><p>says in sutras 9.43-44 that </p><p>vitarka (Pāli vitakka) is scriptural knowledge (śruta) and that </p><p>vicāra is a shifting between the object, its word, and its activity (Tatia 1994, 242). </p><p>In 9.42 it also states,</p><p>however, that there is meditation without vicāra.</p><p> It has not been sufficiently researched how old the ancient Jain literature is, </p><p> but this could be another hint that meditation with vitakka and vicāra </p><p> were common among ascetics of the Buddha’s time.</p><p><br /></p><p>This interpretation also shines light on a story in MN 36, MN 85, and MN 100 according to</p><p>which the later-to-be Buddha experienced a state of rapture with thought and investigation, </p><p>i.e. the first Jhāna.</p><p> While the commentaries say that Gotama was still a boy at that time (Ñāṇamoli &</p><p>Bodhi 1995, 1230) nothing in the actual sutta confirms that he was that young – it merely</p><p>mentions that at that time his father was off working.</p><p> The story also doesn’t claim that his state</p><p>was a novel discovery.</p><p> In fact, there would be nothing unusual about a young man in his mid-</p><p>twenties with great spiritual talent to have spoken to wandering ascetics on their alms-round,</p><p>inquiring about their practices and then applying them successfully.</p><p><br /></p><p>In short, the first Jhāna could well have been an already available meditation practice</p><p>incorporated by early Buddhism into its fourfold framework of Samādhi.</p><p> And indeed, there is</p><p>already established precedence for a very similar incorporation:</p><p> a well-known part of Gotama’s biography is that </p><p> early in his spiritual quest he learned from two teachers the so-called ‘formless</p><p>realms’ – abstract meditation states with hardly any mental content at all (see Rai, 2017). </p><p>And these ‘formless realms’ became part of Buddhist meditation, </p><p>with the standard passages usually starting </p><p>progressing from the four Jhānas to the four Formless Realms.</p><p><br /></p><p>I want to highlight more aspects from Buddhist sources </p><p>that the first Jhāna was not regarded that highly, </p><p>which could be a consequence of an assimilation.</p><p> As it is well known, the Noble Eightfold Path culminates in the eighth limb of Samādhi, </p><p> which then again is described with the four Jhānas.</p><p> </p><p> But when we look at the standard descriptions of the Jhānas </p><p>the term samādhi actually only appears in the second Jhāna:</p><p> The first Jhāna is ‘born out of separation’ (vivekaja),</p><p>and the second out of Samādhi (samādhija).</p><p> Which means that the last limb of the Noble Eightfold Path </p><p> is actually named after the second Jhāna – </p><p> which again could be a hint that this is where the contribution of the Buddha was seen.</p><p><br /></p><p>Another sutta might emphasize exactly this point.</p><p> Snp 1.1, verse 7 (translation Bodhi) says:</p><p><br /></p><p>“One whose thoughts (vitakka) have been burned out, entirely well excised internally:</p><p>1that bhikkhu gives up the here and the beyond as a serpent sheds its old worn-out skin.”</p><p><br /></p><p>1 Yassa vitakkā vidhūpitā, ajjhattaṃ suvikappitā asesā;</p><p>So bhikkhu jahāti orapāraṃ, urago jiṇṇamivattacaṃ purāṇaṃ.</p><p><br /></p><p>The implication of this verse is that the transcendence of vitakka </p><p>(which could allude to the second Jhāna) </p><p>would result in or lead to liberation.</p><p><br /></p><p> This claim is repeated in a parallel to this verse, in Udāna 6-7:</p><p> Subhūtisuttaṁ (translation Ānandajoti):</p><p><br /></p><p>“For he who has dispelled thoughts (vitakka), </p><p>Totally cut (them) off within himself without remainder,</p><p>Perceiving the formless (nibbāna), </p><p>beyond the shackle, </p><p>Having overcome the four yokes - </p><p>he 2surely does not come (to birth again).”</p><p><br /></p><p>A text possibly critical of the first Jhāna </p><p>is a poem that appears in the early Suttanipāta, in Snp 5.13, v. 1109 (also in SN 1.64). </p><p>In this early material different Brahmin masters present their questions to the Buddha.</p><p> And in the verse in question Udaya asks the Buddha what keeps the world in bondage.</p><p> In his answer the Buddha identifies as the culprits some elements </p><p>of the ‘first Jhāna’, namely thought and investigation (vitakka and vicāra), </p><p>next to delight (nandi), which in this context could be a misguided version of the Jhāna factor pīti.</p><p> A possible reading of this verse is, therefore, </p><p> that the meditation practice of other traditions essentially </p><p> leaves the system of existential bondage intact </p><p> since they investigate (vicāra) the wrong Dharma (vitakka) and as a</p><p>consequence get lost in delight (nandi) – </p><p>the latter, however, doesn’t sound like a reference to Jain practitioners </p><p>who were seen as ascetics who embrace pain in their practice.</p><p><br /></p><p>In the end I cannot claim that there is hard proof </p><p>for the hypothesis that the first Jhāna </p><p>is actually an assimilation from a shared spiritual practice of the Buddha’s time.</p><p> But there is enough supportive circumstantial evidence </p><p> in order to keep the idea in the back of our mind when contemplating the Buddhist Jhānas.</p><p><br /></p><p>2 Yassa vitakkā vidhūpitā, Ajjhattaṁ suvikappitā asesā,</p><p>Taṁ saṅgam-aticca arūpasaññī, Catuyogātigato na jātu-m-etī” ti.</p><p><br /></p><p>Abbreviations</p><p>MN Majjhima Nikāya</p><p>SN Saṃyutta Nikāya</p><p>Snp Suttanipāta</p><p>References</p><p>Ānandajoti, B.</p><p> (2008). Udāna.</p><p> Exalted Utterances.</p><p> Revised version 2.2. Available Online:</p><p><br /></p><p>https:</p><p>//www.</p><p>ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/Exalted-Utterances.pdf</p><p>Arbel, K.</p><p> (2016). Early Buddhist Meditation.</p><p> London & New York:</p><p> Routledge.</p><p><br /></p><p>Bodhi, B.</p><p> (Trans.). (2017). The Suttanipāta.</p><p> Somerville:</p><p> Wisdom Publications.</p><p><br /></p><p>Ñāṇamoli, B.</p><p> & Bodhi, B.</p><p> (Trans.). (1995). The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha.</p><p> A</p><p>Translation of the Majjhima Nikāya.</p><p> Boston:</p><p> Wisdom Publications.</p><p><br /></p><p>Rai, S.</p><p> (2017). The Curious Case of the Formless Attainments.</p><p> Journal of the International</p><p>Association of Buddhist Universities, 6(2), 70-82.</p><p>Tatia, N.</p><p> (Trans.). (1994). That which is.</p><p> New York:</p><p> HarperCollins Publishers.</p><div><br /></div><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-12940994396060465502024-01-27T10:09:00.000-08:002024-01-27T10:24:22.360-08:00AN 5.179: 4 recollections are the vitakka (verbal linguistic thinking) of first jhāna <p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Ven. sabbamitta wrote on sutta central:</h1><div><a href="https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/are-the-topics-for-recollection-just-recollections/32184">https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/are-the-topics-for-recollection-just-recollections/32184</a></div><div><br /></div><div>I remember that Bhante @sujato—I don’t remember in which thread—mentioned something along the lines that usually laypeople are taught just the topics for recollection like those on the Triple Gem etc. And I was wondering about the word “just”.</div><div><br /></div><div>Especially when reading AN 5.179, I doubt that these recollections are just such a simple practice. There, they are called “blissful meditations in the present life belonging to the higher mind”—a phrase normally used for the jhānas.</div><div><br /></div><div>Does that mean that the recollections are here equated to the jhānas, or does it at least mean that they, when well developed and perfected, lead into jhāna?</div><div><br /></div><div>I am also curious what Venerables @Sunyo and @Vaddha think about this. (I often enjoy reading your discussions, and just would like to thank you here for these! :heart:)</div><p> </p><h1 style="text-align: left;">frankk responds (on my blog, I'm not a member on sutta central)</h1><p>Interesting to note even though B. Sujato was tagged by Ven. Sabbamitta (meaning Sujato was notified electronically to respond to the discussion), </p><p>he did not respond, even though he can be seen to be responding to other threads on the same time period elsewhere in the forum.</p><p>Why?</p><p>Because Sujato continues to steadfastly cling to his erroneous views of vitakka on first jhāna being "placing the mind" </p><p>even when members on his own forum present him with evidence showing that vitakka of first jhāna in the EBT explicitly are explained as having verbal, linguistic thoughts, communicable language,</p><p> thoughts you say to yourself in your mind before you speak them out loud (vacī sankhāra are vitakka). </p><h2 style="text-align: left;">Tangent: brief summary of LBT (late buddhist) redefinition of jhāna</h2><p>This is fundamental to all oral traditions.</p><p>Sati memorizes Dhamma scripture, in the form of communicable language (vitakka).</p><p>This is true in EBT (early Buddhism), </p><p>true of Jainism (pre Buddhist) definition of their sati, dhyāna (jhāna) and their vitakka,</p><p>true of other contemporary and later Brahmanical non Buddhist traditions,</p><p>true in Early Abhidhamma (see Ab Vb and Vimuttimagga).</p><p>Only 500 years later after the Buddha's death, in LBT Theravada redefinition of jhāna in Visuddhimagga, based on non canonical Abhidhamma commentary,</p><p>they redefine body (kāya) in jhāna as not physical body, but a mental body.</p><p>they redefine verbal thinking (vitakka), as not verbal thinking, but mounting the mind on a visual kasina where no discernment or volitional thought is possible. </p><p>they redefine physical pleasure felt in the body as mental pleasure devoid of physical pleasure.</p><p>They redefine physical form (rūpa) as the mentally created visual kasina, not the 31 anatomical body parts as EBT understands it. </p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Back to Ven. Sabbamitta's question</h1><p>In her thread, She, Ven. Sunyo and others not surprisingly conclude the 4 recollections are not first jhāna, not vitakka of first jhāna doing the recollection.</p><p>Perhaps if they survey a few more related suttas, they'll come to more sensible conclusion.</p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Clue #1: AN 5.176, just 3 suttas ago from AN 5.179, </h3><p>we're dealing with the same Anathapindika and 500 lay followers. In there, Sariputta is unmistakably glossing first jhāna. </p><p>Even Theravada commentary confirms that Pīti of AN 5.179 is referring to first and second jhāna.</p><p>So in AN 5.176, Buddha is telling the 501 lay followers they should not be content in making merit donating requisites to the sangha, that they should practice first jhāna.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Clue #2: even though AN 5.179 doesn't mention vitakka explicitly</h3><p>In AN 5.179, the same 501 lay followers, following Buddha's advice, </p><p>now most of them if not all of them are strongly hinted to be stream enterers.</p><p>How did they get there? By using vitakka of first jhāna doing the 4 recollections.</p><p>Elsewhere, probably every other occurrence of the 80+ sutta references using the term<br />ābhicetasikānaṃ. refer to four jhānas.</p><p>Here, what's strongly implied is that most of those 500 followers can only do first jhāna, since they rely on vitakka (verbal thinking) to do the 4 recollections. Those who can not pacify (passaddhi sambojjhanga) verbal thoughts can not rise to 2nd jhāna and above.<br /><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Clue #3: AN 6.10 has 6 recollections (first 4 are same as the 4 of AN 5.179) </h3><p> and covers the same territory, also dealing with lay people doing first jhāna, and it's more explicit there by listing the 7 awakening factors.</p><p>My annotated translations, with copious specific links to the exact scene of the crime, confirms everything I've asserted. </p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Clue #4: AN 5.26 are monastics instead of followers doing all four jhānas</h3><p>They're using the same vitakka of first jhāna, but instead of thinking about 4 recollections, they are contemplating meaning of Dharma, and also not limited to verbal thoughts of first jhāna, they move on to subverbal mental processing that takes them to second jhāna and beyond.</p><h1 style="text-align: left;">conclusion</h1><p>So, contrary to Sujato and Ven. Sabbamitta, who hold the view that vitakka of first jhāna is "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina), and that the four recollections are topics of mindfulness that one uses to enter samādhi (but are not properly considered part of four jhānas),</p><p>if you actually read the Buddha's words you'll find the Buddha was a plain speaker and</p><p>used his terms consistently.</p><p>Vitakka in all Indian oral traditions is what sati memorize and mentally speak in their mind before speaking it out loud,</p><p>and vitakka in first jhāna mentally reciting and reflecting on the four recollections is that very same vitakka & vicāra.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;"><br /></h2><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">5.179 - AN 5.179 Gihi: A Layperson</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2023 <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/f/flipt/index.html#sp-fluent">SP-FLUENT </a>translation by <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bfrn">frankk </a>derived from <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bsuj">B. Sujato </a>)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;">(</span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> is a sequel to </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.176</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;">)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - AN 5.179 Gihi: A Layperson</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.0" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.0</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (Buddha tells Sāriputta which lay people are qualified as stream enterers)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.1" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (five training rules by which his actions are restrained)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.2" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (pleasant abiding #1: confidence in the Buddha )</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.3" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.3</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (pleasant abiding #2: confidence in the Dharma )</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.4" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (pleasant abiding #3: confidence in the Sangha )</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.179.5" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.179.5</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (pleasant abiding #4: possess ethics valued by Noble ones)</span></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h2>5.176 - AN 5.176 Pīti: Rapture</h2><p>
<i><small>(2023 <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/f/flipt/index.html#sp-fluent">SP-FLUENT </a> translation by <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bfrn">frankk </a> derived from <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bsuj">B. Sujato </a>)</small></i><br />
<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.1">AN <sup>5.176.1</sup></a> - (Buddha tells Anāthapiṇḍika and 500 lay followers not to be content with just merit of donating requisites to sangha)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.2">AN <sup>5.176.2</sup></a> - (They should develop first jhāna)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.3">AN <sup>5.176.3</sup></a> - (Sariputta explains first jhāna formula’s vivekajam pīti-sukham)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5">AN <sup>5.176.5</sup></a> - (these 5 things not present in pīti/rapture)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5.1">AN <sup>5.176.5.1</sup></a> - (Kāma’s dukkha & domanassa)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5.2">AN <sup>5.176.5.2</sup></a> - (Kāma’s sukha & somanassa)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5.3">AN <sup>5.176.5.3</sup></a> - (A-kusala dukkha & domanassa)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5.4">AN <sup>5.176.5.4</sup></a> - (A-kusala sukha & somanassa)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.5.5">AN <sup>5.176.5.5</sup></a> - (Kusala dukkha & domanassa)<br />
<a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.176.6">AN <sup>5.176.6</sup></a> - (buddha praises sāriputta and confirms instructions)</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">6.10 - AN 6.10 Mahānāma: With Mahānāma</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2023 <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/f/flipt/index.html">FLIPT </a>translation by <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bfrn">frankk </a>)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.1" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Buddh-ānu-s-sati)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.2" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Dhamm-ānu-s-sati)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.3" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.3</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Saṅgh-ānu-s-sati)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.4" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Sīl-ānu-s-sati)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.5" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.5</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Cāg-ānu-s-sati)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an06/index.html#6.10.6" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>6.10.6</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - ( Devat-ānu-s-sati)</span></p><p>(contains detailed explicit 7 awakening factor leading to 4 jhānas)</p><p><br /></p><p> </p><p><br /></p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">5.26 - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for Freedom</h2><p><i style="font-size: 16px;"><small>(2023 <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/f/flipt/index.html#sp-fluent">SP-FLUENT </a>translation by <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bfrn">frankk </a>derived from <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/index.html#bsuj">B. Sujato </a>)</small></i><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for Freedom</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.1" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.1</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - First jhāna possible while hearing live dhamma talk</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.1.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.1.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.2" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.2</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - Giving a dhamma talk leads to himself getting jhāna</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.2.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.2.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.3" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.3</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - Reciting memorized dhamma passage leads to jhāna</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.3.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.3.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.4" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.4</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - first jhāna possible while thinking and pondering memorized dhamma</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.4.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.4.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.5" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.5</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - No V&V, undirected samādhi into 2nd jhāna or higher</span><br style="font-size: 16px;" /><span style="font-size: 16px;"> </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/an/main/an05/index.html#5.26.5.7" style="font-size: 16px;">AN <sup>5.26.5.7</sup></a><span style="font-size: 16px;"> - (refrain: </span><a href="https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/index.html" style="font-size: 16px;">7sb☀️ </a><span style="font-size: 16px;">→ jhāna → arahantship)</span></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-28686067886777947182024-01-26T09:36:00.000-08:002024-01-26T09:36:50.846-08:00KN Dhp 183 similar to quote (misattributed) to Abraham Lincoln, "When I do good, I feel good..."<p> </p><h2 style="font-family: Arial;">KN Dhp 183 – (do good, no evil, clean mind)</h2><table><tbody><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ sabba-pāpassa a-karaṇaṃ,</div></td><td>To avoid all evil,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">kusalassa upasampadā .</div></td><td>to cultivate good,</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">♦ sa-citta-pariyodapanaṃ,</div></td><td>and to cleanse one’s mind—</td></tr><tr><td><div class="lan1n" style="background-color: #fff0ff; color: #220044; font-family: serif; font-size: 1em;">etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.</div></td><td>this is the teaching of the Buddhas.<br /><br /></td></tr></tbody></table><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://suebrewton.com/2016/01/31/no-that-is-not-what-abraham-lincoln-said/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email">https://suebrewton.com/2016/01/31/no-that-is-not-what-abraham-lincoln-said/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email</a></p><p>excerpt:</p><p></p><h1 style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: lime;"><strong>✓</strong></span>“When I do good I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad, and that’s my religion.”</h1>
Unknown<br />
<em>Herndon’s Lincoln: The True Story of a Great Life</em>, volume III, chapter XIV<br />
William H. Herndon and Jesse William Weik<p></p><p>
</p><p>According to Herndon (Lincoln’s friend and law partner), Lincoln
attributes this quote to an old man named Glenn in Indiana. Since there
have been multitudes of people named Glenn in Indiana and no other
identifying information is provided, we can only attribute this quote to
unknown. </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-50859872290429363392024-01-25T04:07:00.000-08:002024-01-25T04:07:53.430-08:00bug: MS microsoft excel and libre office calc for those who use spreadsheets to do pali + english translation<p> </p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj80qYW0WzKByF5q8kjd6Ow4K_MNHIwhYP0FLMXpyNYFwwJPpGT9_cJM4rrRNtRkXHujoQf0CzTg0Wsz5NYFTeB0D2eTyb68GaB6i3BBTTXCXEe-maZrBLa1BS5TRv8KdG1_Xc4feL2xrhfE43d3vhsa33avXwWueTxcgYCPO7Vnih03nblKVV-SBWzylI" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="381" data-original-width="1103" height="111" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj80qYW0WzKByF5q8kjd6Ow4K_MNHIwhYP0FLMXpyNYFwwJPpGT9_cJM4rrRNtRkXHujoQf0CzTg0Wsz5NYFTeB0D2eTyb68GaB6i3BBTTXCXEe-maZrBLa1BS5TRv8KdG1_Xc4feL2xrhfE43d3vhsa33avXwWueTxcgYCPO7Vnih03nblKVV-SBWzylI" width="320" /></a></div><br /><br /><p></p><p><br /></p><p>In case anyone else uses libre office calc or Microsoft excel spreadsheet to do pali + english translation</p><p>(so things are lined up neatly side by side)</p><p><br /></p><p>I frequently will cut an entire column (for example English) and paste into a text editor like notepad++ (plain text editor but with richer regex) </p><p>do some editing in notepad++ then copy that back into the spreadsheet.</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">The bug is, </h1><p>the English text I have in the sample above, somehow either the brackets (), {}, [], or *********, or perhaps tabs or some other invisible characters,</p><p> or some combination of all of the above causes the copy buffer clipboard, when moving from notepad++ back into excel spreadsheet,</p><p>Will read that entire block of 12 lines back into the spreadsheet as ONE single line.</p><p>Which screws up the pali + english side by side alignment for the entire file.</p><p><br /></p><p>I have the entire AN 5 collection of suttas (hundreds) at 8000+ lines of pali + english,</p><p>and it was a nightmare to figure out what was the problem.</p><p>At first, I thought it was libre office bug,</p><p>so I tried out microsoft excel, same problem.</p><p>A day and half later I finally tracked down the problem.</p><p><br /></p><h1 style="text-align: left;">Another issue: Non breaking spaces</h1><p>They look like a regular ' ' (space), but they're an invisible character that joins the strings on either side of it, so that computers treat it as a single word.</p><p>For example "butt head" appears to be two words.</p><p>But if I put a non breaking space between "butt" and "head", computers treats that as a single word.</p><p><br /></p><p>This happened with some sutta central source files from pali (and maybe english) in the past.</p><p>Maybe they've fixed it, maybe not.</p><p>But the problem it caused on my end, with side by side pali + english in a table, is that the non breaking spaces would create giant long words, causing a huge table imbalance with 90% of the width of the table for one over the other, instead of 50/50.</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">Simple fix to replace non-breaking spaces with normal space:</h3><p>with regex, search for \s [any white space code]</p><p>and replace with ' ' [single normal space]</p><p><br /></p><h3 style="text-align: left;">more complicated but correct precise fix:</h3><p> with a decent text editor, search for the hex number of the unicode for non breaking space, and replace it with one </p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-32679886503932372942024-01-24T08:23:00.000-08:002024-01-24T08:23:30.327-08:00How to distinguish real Buddha's jhāna when all these teachers contradict each other?<p> </p><p><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/19edw82/is_there_gonna_be_absolute_lack_of_awareness_of/">https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/19edw82/is_there_gonna_be_absolute_lack_of_awareness_of/</a></p><p><br /></p><p><span class="_1RIl585IYPW6cmNXwgRz0J" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px); font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: absolute !important; vertical-align: baseline;">level 5</span></p><div class="-Xcv3XBXmgiY2X5RqaPbO _1S45SPAIb30fsXtEcKPSdt _3LqBzV8aCO9tge99jHiUGy " data-testid="post-comment-header" style="align-items: flex-start; background-color: white; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-direction: column; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; justify-content: center; line-height: inherit; margin: 10px 0px 6px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span class="_1a_HxF03jCyxnx706hQmJR" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-flow: wrap; font: inherit; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_3QEK34iVL1BjyHAVleVVNQ" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_2mHuuvyV9doV3zwbZPtIPG" style="border: 0px; display: inline-block; flex: 0 0 auto; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div id="UserInfoTooltip--t1_kjd8qza" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="wM6scouPXXsFDSZmZPHRo DjcdNGtVXPcxG0yiFXIoZ _23wugcdiaj44hdfugIAlnX " data-testid="comment_author_link" href="https://www.reddit.com/user/lucid24-frankk/" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">lucid24-frankk</a></div></div></div><span class="_2ETuFsVzMBxiHia6HfJCTQ _8b8fUdBRxCYj9MkNpFvvv" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText); flex: 0 0 auto; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">·</span><a class="_3yx4Dn0W3Yunucf5sVJeFU" data-testid="comment_timestamp" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/19edw82/comment/kjd8qza/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3" id="CommentTopMeta--Created--t1_kjd8qza" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">just now</a></span></div><div class="_3cjCphgls6DH-irkVaA0GM " data-testid="comment" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 461px;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Imagine you wear permanent googles filled with muddy water.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">If you pacify your movements, the mud settles down and you can see clearly.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">How can you ever do vipassana/insight if you can't see clearly?</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">The Buddha's definition of first jhāna is the pacification of body and mind needed to be able to lucidly see, to the extent that chasing objects of sensual desire leads to suffering, and that letting go of that desire leads to physical and mental joy.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">It's a huge milestone in seeing the inherent suffering in existence and how most beings pursue happiness.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Non-Buddhist and corrupt Buddhist definitions of jhāna do not address that problem. You can be a yoga master who can stay in a disembodied frozen stupor for 8 hours at a time, but when you emerge, you still have your cravings, delusions, anger, etc.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Many monks who mastered this kind of disembodied "jhana" have disrobed, married, etc.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">That's how you can tell the difference between a genuine Buddha's first jhāna and false ones.</p></div></div><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-28264810488945999172024-01-18T09:23:00.000-08:002024-01-18T09:23:47.572-08:00Common misundestandings of satipaṭṭhāna's vedana (sensations) and Dhamma (teachings that lead to nirvana) <p> </p><div class="_14-YvdFiW5iVvfe5wdgmET" style="align-items: start; 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color: var(--posttitletextcolor); display: inline; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 20px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; font-weight: 500; line-height: 24px; margin: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 5px 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">4Foundations of mindfulness(clarification needed)</h1></div></div><div class="_1hLrLjnE1G_RBCNcN9MVQf" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; left: -99999px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: absolute; top: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; visibility: hidden;"><img alt="" src="https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; height: 1px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 1px;" /></div></div><div class="_2fiIRtMpITeCAzXc4cANKp _1mK-LVHGTTlcFpMsjItjYJ" data-ignore-click="false" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #878a8c; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px 10px 10px 8px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="lrzZ8b0L6AzLkQj5Ww7H1" style="border: 0px; display: inline-block; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"></div><div class="lrzZ8b0L6AzLkQj5Ww7H1" style="border: 0px; display: inline-block; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/search?q=flair_name%3A%22Question%22&restrict_sr=1" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"><span class="_1jNPl3YUk6zbpLWdjaJT1r " style="background-color: #edeff1; border-radius: 2px; border: 0px; color: #1a1a1b; display: inline-block; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 4px; text-overflow: ellipsis; vertical-align: text-bottom; white-space: pre; word-break: normal;">Question</span></a></div></div><div class="_3xX726aBn29LDbsDtzr_6E _1Ap4F5maDtT1E1YuCiaO0r D3IL3FD0RFy_mkKLPwL4" data-adclicklocation="media" data-click-id="text" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #878a8c; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 12px 0px 0px 8px; max-width: 800px; padding: 5px 16px 5px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Although the explanation of 4foundations is simple, I am not sure if I understand it correctly.</p><ol class="_1eJr7K139jnMstd4HajqYP" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; list-style-image: initial; list-style-position: outside; margin: 4px 0px 4px 8px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><li class="_3gqTEjt4x9UIIpWiro7YXz" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0.4em 1em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">“Awareness of the mind in the mind”. Why is it not said just “Awareness of the mind.” ? If they are not the same thing, what would make them different?</p></li><li class="_3gqTEjt4x9UIIpWiro7YXz" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0.4em 1em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Also, “awareness of phenomena of the mind in the mind”. I need the same clarification.</p></li><li class="_3gqTEjt4x9UIIpWiro7YXz" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0.4em 1em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">I also need to understand the difference between awareness of “objects of the mind(phenomena)” and awareness of “the mind” itself. Everything the mind perceives is an object. Isn’t it? So when we say “awareness of the mind” we are actually referring to its objects. So what is the difference?</p></li></ol><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Please either explain to me or introduce me a good video or book that targets my questions.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Thank you.</p></div></div><p><br /></p><p><span class="_1RIl585IYPW6cmNXwgRz0J" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px); font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: absolute !important; vertical-align: baseline;">level 1</span></p><div class="-Xcv3XBXmgiY2X5RqaPbO _1S45SPAIb30fsXtEcKPSdt _3LqBzV8aCO9tge99jHiUGy " data-testid="post-comment-header" style="align-items: flex-start; background-color: white; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-direction: column; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; justify-content: center; line-height: inherit; margin: 10px 0px 6px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span class="_1a_HxF03jCyxnx706hQmJR" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-flow: wrap; font: inherit; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_3QEK34iVL1BjyHAVleVVNQ" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_2mHuuvyV9doV3zwbZPtIPG" style="border: 0px; display: inline-block; flex: 0 0 auto; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div id="UserInfoTooltip--t1_khyeiu5" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="wM6scouPXXsFDSZmZPHRo DjcdNGtVXPcxG0yiFXIoZ _23wugcdiaj44hdfugIAlnX " data-testid="comment_author_link" href="https://www.reddit.com/user/lucid24-frankk/" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">lucid24-frankk</a></div></div></div><span class="_2ETuFsVzMBxiHia6HfJCTQ _8b8fUdBRxCYj9MkNpFvvv" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText); flex: 0 0 auto; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">·</span><a class="_3yx4Dn0W3Yunucf5sVJeFU" data-testid="comment_timestamp" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/196yq69/comment/khyeiu5/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3" id="CommentTopMeta--Created--t1_khyeiu5" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">3 days ago</a></span></div><div class="_3cjCphgls6DH-irkVaA0GM " data-testid="comment" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; font-family: IBMPlexSans, Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 542.333px;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">this short explanation with sutta references clears up many of the misconceptions on the topic:</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="_3t5uN8xUmg0TOwRCOGQEcU" href="https://lucid24.org/tped/l/lll/index.html#8.7" rel="noopener nofollow ugc" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">https://lucid24.org/tped/l/lll/index.html#8.7</a></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">and this one:</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="_3t5uN8xUmg0TOwRCOGQEcU" href="https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/09/wagging-dhamma-kn-ud-110-bahiya-sutta.html" rel="noopener nofollow ugc" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/09/wagging-dhamma-kn-ud-110-bahiya-sutta.html</a></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">explains why 4th frame Dhamma is the Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana, not "phenomena", "things", or "qualities".</p></div></div><p><br /></p><div style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_3sf33-9rVAO_v4y0pIW_CH" id="t1_khylyhi" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font: inherit; margin: 0px; outline: none; overflow: visible; padding: 0px 0px 0px 37px; position: relative; transition: background 1s ease 0s; vertical-align: baseline; width: 600.667px;" tabindex="-1"><div class="Comment t1_khylyhi P8SGAKMtRxNwlmLz1zdJu _1Sy9NCNbLA9uJZj-qgUrMG HZ-cv9q391bm8s7qT54B3" style="align-items: center; border-radius: 4px; border: 0px; display: flex; font: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 0px -23px; padding: 8px 0px 0px 8px; position: relative; transition: color 0.5s ease 0s, fill 0.5s ease 0s, background 1s ease 0s; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_2mHuuvyV9doV3zwbZPtIPG ZvAy-PJfJmB8pzQxpz1sS" style="align-self: flex-start; border: 0px; display: inline-block; flex: 0 0 auto; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div id="AvatarUserInfoTooltip--t1_khylyhi" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="_3GfQMgsm3HGd3838lwqCST" data-testid="comment_author_icon" href="https://www.reddit.com/user/TheWayBytheway/" style="align-self: flex-start; border-radius: 50%; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; display: block; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 28px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; font-weight: inherit; height: 28px; line-height: 1; margin: 6px 0px 0px; min-height: 28px; min-width: 28px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; width: 28px;"><div class="_2p14AQvJBvTrEEa4csiW9v " style="border: 0px; font: inherit; height: 28px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; vertical-align: baseline;"><img alt="User avatar" class="_2TN8dEgAQbSyKntWpSPYM7 _13ScjOmi6dGdJw0JAonQEr " src="https://www.redditstatic.com/avatars/defaults/v2/avatar_default_0.png" style="border-radius: 50%; border: none; box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-body); font: inherit; height: 28px; margin: 0px; object-fit: cover; object-position: center center; padding: 0px; text-indent: -9999px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 28px;" /></div></a></div></div><div class="_3tw__eCCe7j-epNCKGXUKk" style="align-self: flex-start; border-radius: 4px; border: 1px solid transparent; box-sizing: border-box; font: inherit; margin: 0px 0px 0px 6px; max-width: 800px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: calc(100% - 56px);"><span class="_1RIl585IYPW6cmNXwgRz0J" style="border: 0px; clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px); font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: absolute !important; vertical-align: baseline;">level 2</span><div class="-Xcv3XBXmgiY2X5RqaPbO _1S45SPAIb30fsXtEcKPSdt _3LqBzV8aCO9tge99jHiUGy " data-testid="post-comment-header" style="align-items: flex-start; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-direction: column; font: inherit; justify-content: center; margin: 10px 0px 6px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span class="_1a_HxF03jCyxnx706hQmJR" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-flow: wrap; font: inherit; justify-content: flex-start; margin: 0px; min-height: 18px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_3QEK34iVL1BjyHAVleVVNQ" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_2mHuuvyV9doV3zwbZPtIPG" style="border: 0px; display: inline-block; flex: 0 0 auto; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div id="UserInfoTooltip--t1_khylyhi" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="wM6scouPXXsFDSZmZPHRo DjcdNGtVXPcxG0yiFXIoZ _23wugcdiaj44hdfugIAlnX " data-testid="comment_author_link" href="https://www.reddit.com/user/TheWayBytheway/" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">TheWayBytheway</a></div></div></div><span class="LWgI-A6rN9Wajn1VLxu2A _3AgEmWP1qkCB8nds7LhzEB" id="CommentTopMeta--OP--t1_khylyhi" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; color: #0079d3; cursor: default; display: inline-flex; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; font-weight: 700; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; padding: 0px; text-transform: uppercase; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">OP</span></span><span class="_2ETuFsVzMBxiHia6HfJCTQ _8b8fUdBRxCYj9MkNpFvvv" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText); flex: 0 0 auto; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">·</span><a class="_3yx4Dn0W3Yunucf5sVJeFU" data-testid="comment_timestamp" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/196yq69/comment/khylyhi/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3" id="CommentTopMeta--Created--t1_khylyhi" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">3 days ago</a></span></div><div class="_3cjCphgls6DH-irkVaA0GM " data-testid="comment" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 521.333px;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Thank you for the link. I just read few pages of it awhile ago and found its language straight forward and direct to the point. It has some wit also in some parts that i found helpful. :)</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Although reading all these different translations and their interpretation I am getting more and more confused now which is the correct one…</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">In previous translations that I read ,the second foundation was introduces as awareness of feelings. In your link it is awareness of sensations. It just made my whole previous understanding questionnable. Sensation and feeling are not the same in my understanding. From what I read before, I got the understanding it is talking about feelings that come to heart which can affect the mind (such as likes and dislikes, hatred, jealousy etc). Now this translation is talking about sensation which is completely different thing…</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Moreover when it comes to 4th foundation, other translations say “awareness of the phenomena” or “awareness of the objects of the mind”. I understand the link you shared is saying “awareness of the dhamma” and you are saying this is the correct translation. But the funny confusing thing I encountered is that someone else also shared a link in this post which translates the 4th foundation just as exactly as “awareness of dhamma”. BUT the thing is that link says dhamma word here IS Not referring to Buddha teachings. In contrary, the one you shared is saying Dhamma word IS referring to buddha teachings…</p></div></div><div class="_3KgrO85L1p9wQbgwG27q4y" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-flow: row; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><div class="_1E9mcoVn4MYnuBQSVDt1gC _2oM1YqCxIwkvwyeZamWwhW _1ewTEGuogtFmDvDII2T2Yy" id="vote-arrows-t1_khylyhi" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; fill: inherit; flex-direction: row; font: inherit; margin: 3px 4px 4px -4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><button aria-label="upvote" aria-pressed="false" class="voteButton _2m5vzALl8kQdr9kwIFUo5t " data-adclicklocation="upvote" data-click-id="upvote" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: none; border-width: initial; cursor: pointer; 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line-height: 16px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">lucid24-frankk</a></div></div></div><span class="_2ETuFsVzMBxiHia6HfJCTQ _8b8fUdBRxCYj9MkNpFvvv" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText); flex: 0 0 auto; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">·</span><a class="_3yx4Dn0W3Yunucf5sVJeFU" data-testid="comment_timestamp" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/196yq69/comment/kigimoq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3" id="CommentTopMeta--Created--t1_kigimoq" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">12 min. ago</a></span></div><div class="_3cjCphgls6DH-irkVaA0GM " data-testid="comment" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 500.333px;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><blockquote class="_28lDeogZhLGXvE95QRPeDL" style="border-bottom: 0px; border-image: initial; border-left: 4px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyTextAlpha20); border-right: 0px; border-top: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 4px 0px 4px 8px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; quotes: none; vertical-align: baseline;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">“awareness of the dhamma” and you are saying this is the correct translation</p></blockquote><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Dhamma is not a translation of the word the buddha used, "Dhamma". It's leaving it untranslated. The term 'Dhamma' is a highly ambiguous word, so the best practice is to leave it untranslated and leave it to the listener to disambiguate, just as the Buddha intended. When translators force feed their INTERPRETATION on you with their translation of the term 'dhamma' (into 'phenomena' or something else wrong), then it can have serious consequences.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">There are a few cases where the term 'dhamma' of 4th satipatthana fits better with 'phenomena' rather than Dhamma [Teaching], but those are in the vast minority if you look at all the passages where tha t occur. The vast majority of the cases Dhamma [the Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana' ] is the much better fit, and a fair number of the instances both meanings [phenomena and teaching] would work.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Which is how Bodhi and other translators can justify to themself their wrong translation.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">But if you leave Dhamma untranslated as I and a few others have done, then you are blameless because you represented the Buddha with 100% accuracy and intent.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">How do I know I'm right in interpreting Dhamma of 4th satipatthana Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana? Look at the last 4 instructions of the 16 steps of breath meditation, which are explicitly said to represent the 4th frame of satipatthana. They are:</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">13) anicca: impermanence</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">14) virāga: dispassion</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">15) nirodha: cessation</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">16) patinissagga: release</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">The last two are a synonym for the third noble truth, cessation of suffering, nirvana.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">See Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta, under 3rd noble truth:</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">What is cessation of suffering?</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><em class="_7s4syPYtk5hfUIjySXcRE" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">yo tassa yeva tanha ya asesa</em></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><em class="_7s4syPYtk5hfUIjySXcRE" style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">virāga, nirodho. patinissaggo, mutti anālayo.</em></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">It's the complete dispassion, cessation, release of craving.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">The 4th frame of satipatthana in the 16 steps of breath meditation explicitly are describing Dhamma anu passana, the "seeing" of Dharma (not "awareness" of "phenomena").</p></div></div><div class="_3KgrO85L1p9wQbgwG27q4y" style="align-items: center; border: 0px; display: flex; flex-flow: row; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; 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font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 16px; margin: 0px 4px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">·</span><a class="_3yx4Dn0W3Yunucf5sVJeFU" data-testid="comment_timestamp" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/196yq69/comment/kigkg49/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3" id="CommentTopMeta--Created--t1_kigkg49" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" style="align-self: baseline; border: 0px; font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">2 min. ago</a></span></div><div class="_3cjCphgls6DH-irkVaA0GM " data-testid="comment" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 2px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 500.333px;"><div class="_292iotee39Lmt0MkQZ2hPV RichTextJSON-root" style="border: 0px; color: var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText); font-family: "Noto Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 21px; margin: 0px 0px -1px; overflow: auto; padding: 0px 0px 1px; vertical-align: baseline; word-break: break-word;"><blockquote class="_28lDeogZhLGXvE95QRPeDL" style="border-bottom: 0px; border-image: initial; border-left: 4px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyTextAlpha20); border-right: 0px; border-top: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 4px 0px 4px 8px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; quotes: none; vertical-align: baseline;"><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">In previous translations that I read ,the second foundation was introduces as awareness of feelings. In your link it is awareness of sensations. It just made my whole previous understanding questionnable.</p></blockquote><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Always question authority. Until you're fully awakened, everything is hearsay, and we can only keep researching and updating our understanding.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">The authoritative understanding of Vedana is SN 36.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="_3t5uN8xUmg0TOwRCOGQEcU" href="https://lucid24.org/sn/sn36/index.html" rel="noopener nofollow ugc" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">https://lucid24.org/sn/sn36/index.html</a></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">OUt of the 31 suttas in that SN collection, these suttas all say anatomical body is the cause of vedanasuttas SN 36.4, SN 36.6, SN 36.7, SN 36.12, SN 36.13</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">3 types of vedana can arise at the 6 sense doors (eyes, ears... mind).</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Pleasant, unpleasant, neutral.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">Your first contact is the physical sensation, and then a mental 'feeling' interprets that sensation contacted at the sense door as either pleasant, painful, or neutral.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">SN 48.37 states that</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;"><a class="_3t5uN8xUmg0TOwRCOGQEcU" href="https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn48/index.html#48.37" rel="noopener nofollow ugc" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;" target="_blank">https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn48/index.html#48.37</a></p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">vedana includes both a physical and mental component.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">But vedana arises from the body, so the sensation comes first.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0.25em; vertical-align: baseline;">The problem with translating vedana as 'feeling', is many people, as you've done, wrongly misunderstand it to be purely a psychological mental reaction, or pure emotion devoid of physical sensation.</p><p class="_1qeIAgB0cPwnLhDF9XSiJM" style="border: 0px; font: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0.8em 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">vedana as 'sensation' makes more clear the physical origin.</p></div></div><div class="_3KgrO85L1p9wQbgwG27q4y" style="align-items: center; 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padding: 0px 4px; vertical-align: baseline;"></button></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p><br /></p>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-8189295098845868712024-01-15T16:29:00.000-08:002024-01-15T16:45:45.257-08:00🔗📝DWTD🐕: Don't Wag the Dog<p><br /></p><p>Dog should wag tail, tail shouldn't be wagging dog. </p><p><br /></p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; color: #636363; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="https://qigor.blogspot.com/2024/01/dwtd-taiji-and-internal-arts-body.html" style="color: #3e8fba; text-decoration-line: none;">DWTD🐕: taiji and internal arts body movement</a></h3><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-336393486999992734.post-3774397356050150562024-01-10T10:27:00.000-08:002024-01-10T10:42:37.460-08:00🔗📝🦍☯Dharma: four mobile truths to supplement the 4 noble ones <p> </p><a href="https://lucid24.org/index.html"><abbr title="4 noble truths, Lucid24.org home page">4👑☸</abbr></a> → <a href="https://lucid24.org/misc/qigor/index.html"><abbr title="qigong gorilla">☯🦍</abbr></a> → <b> <a href="https://lucid24.org/tped/q/qigord/index.html"><abbr title="qigong gorilla 🦍☯Dharma">qigor 🦍☯Dharma</abbr></a> </b><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>I'm in the process of assembling various articles on exercises to help sitting meditators into a single book.</div><div><br /></div><div>It's a work in progress, won't be in a state I'd really want to print into a book for another 10 years, but a gorilla (guerrilla) is all about usefulness and practicality.</div><div>People need to know important info now, not in 10 years.</div><div><br /></div><div>🦍☯ You can see from the yin yang symbol, that it's differentiated and segregated from EBT Buddha Dhamma.</div><div>It's not even on lucid24.org main page, you have to dig down a level through misc. to get to it.</div><div><br /></div><div>I pun on 4 mobile truths and mobile eightfold path to borrow the memory structure of things serious Buddhists have already memorized, to aid memory of important health and exercise principles,</div><div><br /></div><div>gorilla Dharma is in no way intended to replace Buddha Dharma or imply the Buddha is deficient in some way. </div><div><br /></div><div>Where the Taoists and Buddhists tend to differ on the issue of physical health, </div><div>the Taoists believe you need a healthy physical body to attain enlightenment.</div><div>The Buddha offered very little in terms of physical exercise other than walking a lot, eating in moderation, and alternating between walking, standing, and sitting postures as needed (without giving any detail on how). </div><div><br /></div><div>The impression one gets in the Buddha's suttas, is that one should be assiduous (appamada) all the time, giving the Dharma everything you got every moment, even at the expense of physical health from lack of plentiful sleep and nutrition. </div><div><br /></div><div>Better to die prematurely from poor physical health and have the right mindset to urgently strive for nirvana,</div><div>while developing grit, mental toughness to bear the natural pains that come with aging and decay, </div><div>than to risk investing too much energy and time preserving a physical body one will have to discard in short time (even if one lives to be 120 yr), and becoming attached to a body, attached to comfort and health. </div><div><br /></div><div>Between those two extremes (of Taoist and Buddhist), there's the fact that you can't experience quality 4 jhānas, without a sufficiently healthy body. </div><div><br /></div><div>So unless you're a masochist, it is of value to learn some health principles from western and eastern medical science that will allow you to practice the pleasurable way of practice in EBT Buddhism, whether it's slow or fast. (AN 4 sutta ref. I believe for 4 ways of practice).</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>frankkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11426926451988418505noreply@blogger.com0