sarathw asked:
What are internal, external, internal external Rupa, Vedana, Citta, and Dhamma?Unread post by
SarathW » Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:15 am
What are internal, external internal-external Rupa, Vedana, Citta, and Dhamma?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.htmlhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#pts.055I think we have had enough discussions on this subject, but I still am puzzled by its meaning.
Your answer should explain how this applies to all four Satipathana.
To me it is sound like this:
- External body, Internal body, external-internal body
-External feeling, Internal feeling, external-internal feelings
- External Citta (consciousness), External Citta, external-internal Citta
- External Dhamma, Internal Dhamma, external-internal Dhamma
Frankk response:
MN 148, which I quote here, and probably many suttas grouped under salaya-ayatana of MN and SN should clear this up.
(1 Six interior sense fields)
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‘Cha ajjhattikÄni ÄyatanÄni veditabbÄnÄ«’ti— | ‘The six interior sense fields should be understood.’ |
iti kho panetaį¹ vuttaį¹. | That’s what I said, |
KiƱcetaį¹ paį¹icca vuttaį¹? | but why did I say it? |
Cakkh-Äyatanaį¹, | There are the sense fields of the eye, |
sot-Äyatanaį¹, | ear, |
ghÄn-Äyatanaį¹, | nose, |
jivh-Äyatanaį¹, | tongue, |
kÄy-Äyatanaį¹, | body, |
man-Äyatanaį¹. | and mind. |
‘Cha ajjhattikÄni ÄyatanÄni veditabbÄnÄ«’ti— | ‘The six interior sense fields should be understood.’ |
iti yaį¹ taį¹ vuttaį¹, | That’s what I said, |
idametaį¹ paį¹icca vuttaį¹. | and this is why I said it. |
Idaį¹ paį¹hamaį¹ chakkaį¹. | This is the first set of six. |
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(2. Six exterior sense fields)
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‘Cha bÄhirÄni ÄyatanÄni veditabbÄnÄ«’ti— | ‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’ |
iti kho panetaį¹ vuttaį¹. | That’s what I said, |
KiƱcetaį¹ paį¹icca vuttaį¹? | but why did I say it? |
RÅ«p-Äyatanaį¹, | There are the sense fields of sights, |
sadd-Äyatanaį¹, | sounds, |
gandh-Äyatanaį¹, | smells, |
ras-Äyatanaį¹, | tastes, |
phoį¹į¹habb-Äyatanaį¹, | touches, |
dhamm-Äyatanaį¹. | and thoughts. |
‘Cha bÄhirÄni ÄyatanÄni veditabbÄnÄ«’ti— | ‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’ |
iti yaį¹ taį¹ vuttaį¹, | That’s what I said, |
idametaį¹ paį¹icca vuttaį¹. | and this is why I said it. |
Idaį¹ dutiyaį¹ chakkaį¹. | This is the second set of six. |
Obviously the six internal bases belong to the individual person, and the six external bases would the the contact stimuli of "external" people or insentient objects interacting with the individual "internal" person.
So for satipaį¹į¹hÄna context of kÄya, vedana, citta, dhamma
internal KÄya would the kÄya-ayatana of the "internal" person, as well as the other internal ayatana (eyes, ears, nose...).
internal Vedana would the the 3 types of feelings, 18 types of feelings that can arise through those 6 internal ayatana.
internal citta, you could say would be the internal mano-ayatana, and perhaps also include some "dhamma".
"dhamma" is interesting, because it's an "external" mental data that is fed in as input into mano-ayatana (which is internal).
Internal Dhamma then, would be the thoughts and mental activity of the internal person kÄya/rÅ«pa, whereas external Dhamma would be mental activity of external people.
"both external and internal" is not some kind of strange siamese twin
In satipaį¹į¹hÄna, it's talking about after one examines internal kÄya, and then external kÄya, both internal and external share common charcteristics. For example, 'eye' is just made up of 4 elements, whether it was internal or external they're essentially made up from the same source material of 4 elements. We're all made up of recycled atoms.
"internal and external" is meant to show throroughness of investigation, that there isn't something else that has been overlooked, for example, a soul, an 'atta' isn't hiding or residing in some other metaphysical category that exist outside of 'internal' or 'external'.
KÄya usally refers to physical body of living being, whereas rÅ«pa usually doesn't distinguish between living and inanimate object
example:
apple = external rÅ«pa, not external kÄya. KÄya, in satipaį¹į¹hÄna context, is going to be referring to living beings, not insentient objects like 'apples'.
in 6 sense base (salayatana) context, 'rūpa', is already 'external', so an 'apple' is simply rūpa, and external.
Here you can see Sujato often translating 'rūpa' as 'vision' is a problem here.
You can eat an apple that is made up of material form (rūpa), but you can't eat a 'vision' of an apple.