sunyo wrote, regarding MN 139:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/292
It can’t be the body that feels the pÄ«ti and sukha [In four jhÄnas], because in the suttas the pÄ«ti that is felt in the first two jhÄnas is repeatedly called mental (pÄ«ti-mÄna). It’s similar with the sukha, which is called non-physical (nirÄmisa) and in other ways is indicated to be mental. For example, it is said in
MN139 that the sukha that comes from the body (and other physical senses) is not to be developed, and
that one should seek sukha “internally”, i.e. in the mind.
frankk response
ajjhatta = adj. inner; internal; personal; in oneself [adhi + atta] ✓
In the context of MN 139, it's one's self (includes both body and mind), not "mind only" self.
Just as in MN 10, one does kÄya anupassana (physical body contemplation) "Internally and externally" on one's physical body.
The physical body belongs to oneself.
How would one even do an-atta lakkhana sutta instructions (on 5 aggregates) thoroughly, if you leave out rūpa and only work on 4 mental aggregates?
This once again smacks of confirmation bias.
Ven. Sunyo wants sukha to mean mind only, so he starts torturing basic terms to try to support that.
sunyo wrote, regarding SN 48.40 claiming sukha is 'mind only':
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/319
That’s how sukha-indriya is defined there, yes. But as discussed before, it is said in SN48.40 that this kind of sukha (bodily sukha) does not exist in the third jhÄna! So the sukha that exists in the third jhÄna must be a different kind of sukha, which is mental. Therefore, it can’t be felt “with the body” (“kÄyena”).
frankk response on SN 48.40
See my research article on the corruption of this sutta.
excerpt:
(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40)
(has domanassa, dukkha, somanassa, sukha and upekkha cease successively)(domanassa-indriya [mental pain] ceases in 1st jhÄna)(dukkha-indriya [physical pain] ceases in 2nd jhÄna)(somanassa-indriya [mental pleasure] ceases in 3rd jhÄna)(Sukha-indriya [physical pleasure] ceases in 4th jhÄna)(upekkha-indriya [physical & mental lack of sÄta] ceases in saƱƱÄ-vedayita-nirodhaį¹ )AVS matches closely with standard Jhana formula
* piti (rapture) and sukha (pleasure) are both present in the first and second jhanas;
* piti (somanassa indriya) fades away in the third jhana;
* the fourth jhana is free from sukha (sukha indriya), dukkha (pain), somanassa (joy) and domanassa (dejection);
* upekkha (equanimity) is present in the third and fourth jhanas.
* It is not clear [exactly which jhana] when somanassa and domanassa disappear.
At least 4 distinct school of Buddhism agree on AVS, against one Theravada SN 48.40
These texts and commentaries from various schools of Buddhism vary on their interpretation of AVS (Aviparitaka Sutra), but they all seem to preserve the same consistent version of AVS, whereas the SN 48.40 Theravada Pali is an outlier that differs drastically from AVS.
1. Abhidharmamrta(rasa)-sastra (sarvastivada school)
2. Tattvasiddhi (or * Satyasiddhi-sastra, pĆ© Cheng shi lun) of the Darstantikas or the BĆ Ć”husrutiyas SCHOOL
3. Yogacarabhumi (tiita Yu qie shi di lun) of the Yogacara school.
4. As to the Sautrantika views, I shall refer to the Abhidharmako s´abhasya by Vasubandhu in the fourth or fifth century A.D. Although this treatise describes itself as ‘‘a presentation of the Abhidharma as taught by the Vaibhasikas’’, its author has evident sympathies for the Sautrantikas. (Sautrantikas is to be treated as a different school of thought than Sarvastivada)
conclusion on SN 48.40
If you're going to accept Theravada's corrupt SN 48.40 as reliable source in interpreting sukha of 3rd jhÄna as "mind only",
(conveniently Ven. Sunyo and Vism. both have this agenda and believe and rely on SN 48.40),
then you go against at least 4 other EBT schools,
and even in the Theravada pÄįø·i sutta collection itself, you'll find so many suttas that are now incoherent.
Once you have an incoherent sutta collection, your interpretation is definitely invalid.
Throw out SN 48.40 in favor of AVS parallel, then all the pali suttas are coherent and internally consistent again, which means you likely have a legitimate interpretation of jhÄna.
sunyo wrote, regarding SN 36.31 nirÄmisa sukha as 'mind only':
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/319
Exactly, it’s spiritual (or literally “not of the flesh”), which means, “relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things”, synonyms being ‘psychological’, ‘inner’, and ‘non-material’. To avoid confusion, I prefer to translate nirÄmisa following Cone and Digital Pali Dictionary as ‘non-physical’. PED and Buddhadatta also have ‘non-material’.
What I’m saying is, pleasure felt “with the body” is not spiritual, not nirÄmisa. That’s what SÄmisa means, “of the flesh”, i.e. “of the body”. (As in Matthew 26:41: “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh (body) is weak.”)
We also have to be consistent when possible. If nirÄmisa pÄ«ti is a mental emotion, as you seem to agree (and which is hard to deny since it’s called pÄ«ti-mÄna),
then nirÄmisa sukha must also be a mental emotion.
Frankk response:
Example to show the fallacious reasoning of "then nirÄmisa sukha must also be a mental emotion."
"I like apples and smelling roses.",
therefore since apples are a physical object, then the act of smelling roses must also be a physical object.
Next problem: he says spiritual "not of the flesh" is being contrasted with non-spiritual "of the flesh",
therefore, nirÄmisa sukha must be a mind only phenomena.
On the surface, it seems like a reasonable assumption,
but we have to actually test it out.
In any religion, you'll find people, who are not in meditative states of disembodied frozen stupor, have "spiritual" (not of the flesh) insights.
For example, they realize being kind and helping others gives them deeper, more fulfilling happiness (both mental and physical) than selfish pursuits of happiness arising based on desire of the 5 cords of sensual pleasure, such as sex and cocaine and music.
They're having "spiritual insights" while in an embodied, physical state.
And they use "not of the flesh" in a metaphorical way, in many religions.
So it's pretty common for nirÄmisa, "spiritual", or "not of the flesh" to point to a spiritual insight that happens while one inhabits the physical body.
We can also settle this issue quickly and conclusively looking at a couple of suttas, SN 36.31 and MN 137
MN 1374 – (rely on something superior to give up something inferior) MN 1374.1 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up householder mental-joy) MN 1374.2 – (rely on renunciate mental-distress to give up householder mental-distress) MN 1374.3 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up householder equanimous-observation) MN 1374.4 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up renunciate mental-distress: use first two jhÄnas to give up renunciate mental-distress) MN 1374.5 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up renunciate mental-joy: use 4th and 3rd jhÄna to give up 1st and 2nd jhÄna) MN 1375 – (two kinds of upekkha equanimous-observation) MN 1375.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhÄna) MN 1375.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rÅ«pa attainments) MN 1374.6 – (rely on upekkha of formless to give up upekkha of fourth jhÄna) MN 1374.7 – (rely on non-identification to give up upekkha of formless)
SN 36.31, conveniently titled, nirÄmisa sutta, hinting it's going to be useful
nirÄmisa sukha is defined as first 3 jhÄnas:
(2.2 nirÄmisaį¹ sukhaį¹ / not of the flesh pleasure)
♦ “katamaƱca, bhikkhave, | "And what, *********, (is) |
nirÄmisaį¹ sukhaį¹? | not-of-the-flesh pleasure? |
idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu | Here, monks, a-monk |
vivicceva kÄmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaį¹ savicÄraį¹ vivekajaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati. | (... abides in standart first jhana formula ... ) |
vitakkavicÄrÄnaį¹ vÅ«pasamÄ ajjhattaį¹ sampasÄdanaį¹ cetaso ekodibhÄvaį¹ avitakkaį¹ avicÄraį¹ samÄdhijaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ dutiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati. | (... abides in standart second jhana formula ... ) |
pÄ«tiyÄ ca virÄgÄ upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajÄno sukhaƱca kÄyena paį¹isaį¹vedeti, | (... abides in standart third jhana formula ... ) |
yaį¹ taį¹ ariyÄ Äcikkhanti — ‘upekkhako satimÄ sukhavihÄrÄ«’ti tatiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati. | |
idaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, | This (s) called, *********, |
nirÄmisaį¹ sukhaį¹. | not-of-the-flesh pleasure. |
nirÄmisa upekkha is defined as fourth jhÄna
(3.2 nirÄmisaį¹ upekkha / not of the flesh equanimity)
♦ “katamÄ ca, bhikkhave, | "And what, *********, (is) |
nir-ÄmisÄ upekkhÄ? | not-of-the-flesh equanimity? |
idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu | Here, monks, a-monk |
sukhassa ca pahÄnÄ, | (... abides in standart fourth jhana formula ... ) |
dukkhassa ca pahÄnÄ, | (... ) |
pubbeva somanassadomanassÄnaį¹ atthaį¹
gamÄ, | (... ) |
adukkhamasukhaį¹ upekkhÄsatipÄrisuddhiį¹ catutthaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati. | (... ) |
ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, | This (s) called, *********, |
nir-ÄmisÄ upekkhÄ. | not-of-the-flesh equanimity. |
Conclusion
MN 1375.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhÄna) MN 1375.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rÅ«pa attainments)
If you follow that link, you'll see that nanatta means diversity of perceptions of the 5 senses, in contrast with upekkha of formless which is ekatta and is mind only.
So if SN 36.31 nirÄmisa upekkha is fourth jhÄna, and fourth jhÄna is by definition of MN 137 a state that has upekkha operating on 5 senses,
then nirÄmisa upekkha is operating on all 5 senses in 3rd and 4th jhÄna,
and nirÄmisa sukha operating on all 5 senses as well in the first 3 jhÄnas, supports a physical based sukha pleasure.