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Sunday, May 19, 2024
Saturday, May 18, 2024
ššnotes on jhÄna "lite"
SN 8.7 of 500 arahants, 60 freed both ways
“There is nothing, SÄriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.
ImesaƱhi, sÄriputta, paƱcannaį¹ bhikkhusatÄnaį¹ saį¹į¹hi bhikkhÅ« tevijjÄ,
saį¹į¹hi bhikkhÅ« chaįø·abhiƱƱÄ, saį¹į¹hi bhikkhÅ« ubhatobhÄgavimuttÄ, atha
itare paƱƱÄvimuttÄ”ti.
For of these five hundred monks,
sixty have the three knowledges,
sixty have the six direct knowledges,
sixty are freed both ways, (has both 4 jhÄnas which have 5 senses active, and formless attainments)
and the rest are freed by wisdom.” (320 of 500 arahants only have 4 jhÄnas, no psychic powers)
external notes
MN 137 Buddha says upekkha is doing vipassana while in 3rd and 4th jhÄna, and all 5 senses of body are active here
and discussion with Ven. on jhÄna "lite"
Thursday, May 16, 2024
MN 137 Buddha says upekkha is doing vipassana while in 3rd and 4th jhÄna, and all 5 senses of body are active here
MN 137 – MN 137 Saįø·-Äyatana-vibhaį¹
ga: six sense fields analysis
MN 137.1 – (six sense fields + dependently arisen effects)
MN 137.1.1 – (6 internal bases)
MN 137.1.2 – (6 external bases)
MN 137.1.3 – (6 classes of consciousness)
MN 137.1.4 – (6 classes of contact)
MN 137.2 – (18 mental vicÄra/explorations = 6 x [so-manassa + do-manassa + upekkha])
MN 137.3 – (36 positions of sentient beings = 18 x [householder + renunciate])
MN 137.3.1 – (6 kinds of householder mental-joy)
MN 137.3.2 – (6 kinds of renunciate mental-joy = pÄ«ti of 7sb and 4 jhÄnas)
MN 137.3.3 – (6 kinds of householder mental-distress: This is what 4th jhÄna formula references)
MN 137.3.4 – (6 kinds of renunciate mental-distress)
MN 137.3.5 – (6 kinds of householder equanimous-observation)
MN 137.3.6 – (6 kinds of renunciate equanimous-observation: is what’s in 3rd and 4th jhÄna, mind connected to 5 sense fields!)
MN 137.4 – (rely on something superior to give up something inferior)
MN 137.4.1 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up householder mental-joy)
MN 137.4.2 – (rely on renunciate mental-distress to give up householder mental-distress)
MN 137.4.3 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up householder equanimous-observation)
MN 137.4.4 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up renunciate mental-distress: use first two jhÄnas to give up renunciate mental-distress)
MN 137.4.5 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up renunciate mental-joy: use 4th and 3rd jhÄna to give up 1st and 2nd jhÄna)
MN 137.5 – (two kinds of upekkha equanimous-observation)
MN 137.5.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhÄna)
MN 137.5.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rūpa attainments)
MN 137.4.6 – (rely on upekkha of formless to give up upekkha of fourth jhÄna)
MN 137.4.7 – (rely on non-identification to give up upekkha of formless)
MN 137.7 - (The teacher -buddha- uses 3 types of sati, to illustrate upekkha reaction)
MN 137.7.1 – (bad disciples)
MN 137.7.2 – (some good some bad disciples)
MN 137.7.3 – (all good disciples)
MN 137.8 - (8 vimokkha + simile of horse and ox trainer in 4 directions)
MN 137.10 - (conclusion)
But I thought Ajahn Brahm says in JhÄna the 5 senses of the body are shut off
Am I understanding Ajahn Brahm correctly?
Doesn't Vism. and Buddhaghosa also say the 5 senses of body are shut off?
Forum discussion
DiamondNgXZ• (Theravada Bhikkhu ordained 2021, Malaysia, Early Buddhism) wrote:
Most of the mappings is that you put into it to map to JhÄnas, the sutta itself didn't say it's JhÄna. Although it is a nice match up to link to the formless attainments.
frankk responds with some other suttas that also refer to 4 jhÄnas without using explicit term 'jhÄna'
also this response, which reddit wouldn't post because of server error:
Monday, May 13, 2024
upekkha also means indifference, boredom in some contexts. How does boredom lead to awakening?
šš Upekkha = equanimous-observation
1. as awakening factor 7šš : doing vipassana to awaken (SN 46.3), is exactly the same as (#2) upekkha in 4 jhÄnas.2. in four jhÄnas (4jš ) doing vipassana (AN 3.102).
3. in 5šabi️ as in MN 152, one can infer, is also the same as the above,
since for one to be an awakened noble, one would need a minimum of first jhÄna, obtained via 7sb☀️ .
4. in brahma-vihÄra 4bv☮️ , for an ariya, would share attributes with all of the above.
As part of 4bv, one would energetically pervade in all directions (of desired radius).
upekkha that could be sensed by other beings as a palpable peaceful radiation,
similar to how seeing someone smile can make you smile.
5. upekkha of 5 indriya/vedana (SN 48.37) corresponds to 3rd and 4th jhÄna.
The 4 jhÄnas are the progressive pacification (passaddhi-sambojjhanga)
of these 5 indriya/vedana (SN 36.11).
6. Upekkha of unawakened ordinary person = equanimous-boredom when indulging in 5kg , see MN 137.3.5 and SN 36.31.3.1.
⛔ Upekkha is not just 'equanimity'. It's equanimous-observation. Upekkha = upa + ikkhati (š looking upon [with right view]).
Just as a peanut butter sandwich is not a peanut butter AND JELLY sandwich. Two different things.
✅ Upekkha has an equanimity aspect, but more importantly, vipassana capability to realize awakening.
It's basically Dhamma-vicaya-bojjhanga supercharged with samÄdhi-sam-bojjhanga (aka four jhÄnas) + right view.
These two suttas show the context for boredom
6. Upekkha of unawakened ordinary person = equanimous-boredom when indulging in 5kg , see MN 137.3.5 and SN 36.31.3.1.
AFAIK, most if not all other translators still translate upekkha as 'equanimity' in that context.
B. Bodhi for example:
14. “Herein, what are the six kinds of equanimity based on the household life?
On seeing a form with the eye, equanimity arises in a foolish
infatuated ordinary person, in an untaught ordinary person who has not
conquered his limitations or conquered the results [of action] and who
is blind to danger.
Such equanimity as this does not transcend the form;
that is why it is called equanimity based on the household life.
Since upekkha is a factor of awakening, the 7th out of 7 awakening factors,
I felt it was necessary to make the distinction clear between upekkha of jhÄnas and bojjhanga,
and the upekkha of a wordling indulging in sensual pleasures like food and sex and getting temporary boredom from it.
Upekkha of worldling temporarily disinterested in sex = equanimous-boredom.
Upekkha of disciple striving for arahantship = equanimous-observation
the 'observation' leads to awakening!
equanimity only lands you rebirth in the brahma realms.
That's why it's called 7 factors of awakening,
not 7 factors of indifference,
nor 7 factors that lead to Brahma realm rebirth.
Saturday, May 11, 2024
SN 36.31 New translation where the vimokkha section makes sense
compare my new translation, with
SN 36.31 three kinds of liberations (vimokkha), unclear in all existing translations
SN 36.31 NirÄmisa: Non-carnal
(2023 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk)
SN 36.31 - SN 36.31 NirÄmisa: Non-carnal
SN 36.31.1 - (3 types of pīti)
SN 36.31.1.1 – (s'-ÄmisÄ pÄ«ti / carnal rapture = 5kg )
SN 36.31.1.2 – (nir-ÄmisÄ pÄ«ti / non-carnal rapture = first two jhÄnas)
SN 36.31.1.3 - (nir-ÄmisÄ nir-ÄmisatarÄ pÄ«ti / surpassing non-carnal rapture = arahant)
SN 36.31.2 - (3 types of sukha)
SN 36.31.2.1 – (s'-ÄmisÄ sukha / carnal pleasure = 5kg )
SN 36.31.2.2 – (nirÄmisaį¹ sukhaį¹ / non-carnal [physical] pleasure = first 3 jhÄnas)
SN 36.31.2.3 – (nir-ÄmisÄ nir-ÄmisatarÄ sukha / surpassing non-carnal pleasure = arahant)
SN 36.31.3 - (3 types of upekkha)
SN 36.31.3.1 – (s'-ÄmisÄ upekkha / carnal upekkha = equanimous-boredom)
SN 36.31.3.2 – (nirÄmisaį¹ upekkha / non-carnal equanimous-observation = 4th jhÄna)
SN 36.31.3.3 – (nir-ÄmisÄ nir-ÄmisatarÄ upekkha / surpassing non-carnal equanimous-observation = arahant)
SN 36.31.4 - (3 types of vimokkho / liberation)
SN 36.31.4.1 – (nekkhamma and 4 jhÄnas are liberation from carnality)
SN 36.31.4.2 – (formless attainments are liberation from limitations of four jhÄnas and rÅ«pa)
SN 36.31.4.3 – (arahant has the highest liberation)
excerpt:
36.31.3.1 – (s'-ÄmisÄ upekkha / carnal upekkha = equanimous-boredom)
♦ “katamÄ ca, bhikkhave, | "And what is |
s'-ÄmisÄ upekkhÄ? | carnal equanimous-boredom? |
paƱc'-ime, bhikkhave, | Monks, there are five |
kÄma-guį¹Ä. | cords of sensual pleasure. |
... | |
paį¹icca uppajjati upekkhÄ, | depending on those, equanimous-boredom arises. |
ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, | This is called |
s'-ÄmisÄ upekkhÄ. | carnal equanimous-boredom. |
36.31.3.2 – (nirÄmisaį¹ upekkha / non-carnal equanimous-observation = 4th jhÄna)
36.31.4 - (3 types of vimokkho / liberation)
36.31.4.1 – (nekkhamma and 4 jhÄnas are liberation from carnality)
[Carnality is the five cords of sensual pleasure 5kg , with sensuality as its limitation.] | |
♦ “katamo ca, bhikkhave, | "What is |
sÄmiso vimokkho? | carnal liberation? |
rÅ«pap-paį¹i-saį¹yutto vimokkho | Any liberation [devoid of sensuality but] connected to material form. |
sÄmiso vimokkho. | [The four jhÄnas are] carnal liberation. |
36.31.4.2 – (formless attainments are liberation from limitations of four jhÄnas and rÅ«pa)
[Non-carnality is the four jhÄnas, and has material form as its limitation.] | |
♦ “katamo ca, bhikkhave, | "What is |
nirÄmiso vimokkho? | non-carnal liberation? |
a-rÅ«pap-paį¹i-saį¹yutto vimokkho | Any liberation [more refined than 4 jhÄnas] that is connected to formless [attainments such as 8 vimokkha ]. |
nirÄmiso vimokkho. | is non-carnal liberation |
36.31.4.3 – (arahant has the highest liberation)
♦ “katamo ca, bhikkhave, | "And what is |
nir-ÄmisÄ nirÄmisataro vimokkho? | something even better than non-carnal liberation? |
yo kho, bhikkhave, | It’s when |
khÄ«į¹'-Äsavassa bhikkhuno | A monk who has ended asinine-inclinations |
rÄgÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato, | Equanimously-observes his mind liberated from passion, |
dosÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato, | Equanimously-observes his mind liberated from aversion, |
mohÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato | Equanimously-observes his mind liberated from delusion. |
uppajjati vimokkho, | The liberation that arises |
ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, | is called |
nir-ÄmisÄ nirÄmisataro vimokkho”ti. | something even better than non-carnal liberation. |
(end of sutta⏹️)
SN 36.31 three kinds of liberations (vimokkha), unclear in all existing translations
Most of this sutta is straightforward and clear in meaning,
fitting cleanly into the matrix.
but the last part on vimokkha breaks the pattern of having 3 types corresponding exactly to:
1) carnal (sa-misa) = ignorant worldling indulges in 5 cords of sensual pleasure
2) non-carnal (nira-misa) = a disciple of Buddha practicing one of the 4 jhÄnas
3) even better than non-carnal = an arahant reviewing their mind free of defilements.
I post the translations of Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Sujato here for reference, as I set to make a translation of SN 36.31 that's completely clear and explicit in meaning.
None of these existing translations make sense to me, aside from the 3rd category of an arahant.
The first two types don't follow the matrix from the rest of the sutta, and Tv commentary adds nothing of note to help make sense of it.
B. Thanissaro has
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN36_31.html
“And what is liberation of the flesh? Liberation associated with form is of the flesh. What is liberation not of the flesh? Liberation associated with the formless is not of the flesh.
“And what is the liberation more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh? Whatever liberation arises in an effluent-ended monk as he is reflecting on his mind released from passion, reflecting on his mind released from aversion, reflecting on his mind released from delusion, that is called liberation more not-of-the-flesh than that not of the flesh.”
B. Bodhi has
“And what, bhikkhus, is carnal deliverance?
Deliverance connected with the form sphere is carnal deliverance.
“And what, bhikkhus, is spiritual deliverance?
Deliverance connected with the formless sphere is spiritual deliverance.
261 “And what, bhikkhus, is deliverance more spiritual than the spiritual?
When a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed reviews his mind liberated
from lust, liberated from hatred, liberated from delusion, there arises
deliverance.
This is called deliverance more spiritual than the spiritual.”
footnote 261:
261 Having called the rapture, etc.
, of the jhānas spiritual (lit.
“noncarnal”) rapture, etc.
, it seems contradictory for the text to say that the form-sphere deliverance is carnal.
Spk explains that form-sphere deliverance is called carnal because its
object is a carnal form (rūpāmisavasen’eva sāmiso nāma).
SN 36.31: NirÄmisasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)
And what is liberation of the flesh?Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sÄmiso vimokkho?Liberation connected with form is liberation of the flesh.RÅ«pappaį¹isaį¹yutto vimokkho sÄmiso vimokkho.
And what is liberation not of the flesh?Katamo ca, bhikkhave, nirÄmiso vimokkho?Liberation connected with the formless is liberation not of the flesh.ArÅ«pappaį¹isaį¹yutto vimokkho nirÄmiso vimokkho.
And what is liberation even more spiritual than that not of the flesh?Katamo ca, bhikkhave, nirÄmisÄ nirÄmisataro vimokkho?When a mendicant who has ended the defilements reviews their mind free from greed, hate, and delusion, liberation arises. This is called liberation even more spiritual than that not of the flesh.”Yo kho, bhikkhave, khÄ«į¹Äsavassa bhikkhuno rÄgÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato, dosÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato, mohÄ cittaį¹ vimuttaį¹ paccavekkhato uppajjati vimokkho, ayaį¹ vuccati, bhikkhave, nirÄmisÄ nirÄmisataro vimokkho”ti.
Friday, May 10, 2024
AN 8.30 B. Sujato, the pÄįø·i time lord, uses Vism. redefinition of vitakka and time travels back to Buddha's time
B. Bodhi translation of relevant section of AN 8.30
Therefore, Anuruddha, also reflect on this eighth thought (vitakka) of a great person:
(8) ‘This Dhamma is for one who delights in non-proliferation, who
takes delight in nonproliferation, not for one who delights in
proliferation, who takes delight in proliferation.’
1693
“When, Anuruddha, you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person,
then, as much as you wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded
from unwholesome states, [230] you will enter and dwell in the first
jhÄna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion,
accompanied by thought and examination.
“When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as
much as you wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, you
will enter and dwell in the second jhÄna, which has internal placidity
and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of
concentration, without thought and examination. (vitakka and vicÄra)
AN 8.30 B. Sujato, the pÄįø·i time lord, uses Vism. redefinition of vitakka
Buddhaghosa, who wrote Vism.,about 1000 years after the Buddha died,
redefined vitakka from "thinking" to "not thinking",
redefined 'body' into "not a body, a collection of mental factors",
redefined jhÄna from blissful physical meditation where thought happens in first jhÄna and subverbal mental processing and vipassana happens in higher jhÄnas,
redefined into "jhÄna = disembodied mental paralysis" where vipassana isn't possible until one emerges from that frozen state.
B. Sujato, who claims to be translating and interpreting according to EBT (early buddhist teachings), uses his powers as a pÄįø·i time lord, travel to Vism. times, borrow Buddhaghosa's LBT (late buddhist teachings) redefinition of jhÄna and vitakka, and then time travels back to Buddha's time to switch out the Buddha's vitakka with "placing the mind" in his "translation" of AN 8.30
‘This teaching is for those who don’t enjoy proliferating and don’t like to proliferate, not for those who enjoy proliferating and like to proliferate.’‘nippapaƱcÄrÄmassÄyaį¹ dhammo nippapaƱcaratino, nÄyaį¹ dhammo papaƱcÄrÄmassa papaƱcaratino’ti.
First you’ll reflect on these eight thoughts of a great man. Then whenever you want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, you’ll enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.Yato kho tvaį¹, anuruddha, ime aį¹į¹ha mahÄpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaį¹, anuruddha, yÄvadeva Äkaį¹ khissasi, vivicceva kÄmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaį¹ savicÄraį¹ vivekajaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharissasi.
You’ll enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.Yato kho tvaį¹, anuruddha, ime aį¹į¹ha mahÄpurisavitakke vitakkessasi, tato tvaį¹, anuruddha, yÄvadeva Äkaį¹ khissasi, vitakkavicÄrÄnaį¹ vÅ«pasamÄ ajjhattaį¹ sampasÄdanaį¹ cetaso ekodibhÄvaį¹ avitakkaį¹ avicÄraį¹ samÄdhijaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ dutiyaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharissasi.
What is especially deranged about this...
When you study AN 8.30 carefully, it's clear, as in MN 18, MN 19, MN 20,
The Buddha (or the elders who organized his teachings) very intentionally designed these sutta to gloss vitakka and how it works in first and second jhÄna, giving you concrete examples of what kind of verbal thoughts one thinks in first jhÄna.
Because the Buddha uses vitakka for those eight thoughts, and then immediately goes into standard first jhÄna formula (which uses the same vitakka).
But since B. Sujato doesn't like the Buddha's definition of vitakka and jhÄna,
he borrows Vism's redefinition which came 1000 years after the Buddha,
and then using his powers as a pÄįø·i time lord,
switches the Buddha's vitakka with one from a corrupted future.
Instead of properly attributing his vitakka to LBT Vism. redefinition,
Sujato then falsely claims he came up with that interpretation of vitakka based purely on EBT (early buddhist teaching).
As of this date, it seems the vast majority of lay followers, monks, nuns,
sit there quietly and accept Sujato's translation and interpretation of vitakka in 4 jhÄnas without complaint,
despite a mountain of evidence (see V&Vš ) proving malfeasance.
Forum discussion
Spirited_Ad8737• wrote:
The metaphor of time travel makes sense.
One thing I've learned from editing diachronic studies of ancient Hebrew and Greek is that it's considered methodologically unsound, to say the least, to take meanings from a later stratum of an ancient language and project them onto earlier strata.
That's bad enough in itself. But in this case, it's being taken a step further.
The original meaning and the 1000-year-later radically different redefined meaning are even supposed to coexist almost adjacent to each other in the same early-stratum paragraph. To me, that strains all credibility.
This case is similar to how kaya, in kayagatasati sutta, is supposed to be redefined (anachronistically) in one single line (breathing sensitive to the whole body), while being surrounded on both sides by kaya in clearly physical bodily contexts (breathing, postures, physical actions, the organs of the body, a rotting corpse).
In both cases, without any signal about the radical and fleeting redefinition of the key term.
And in both cases the key terms being redefined on the fly are in the very titles of the suttas in question.
It seems rather like a proliferation of Ptolemaic epicycles.
Frankk responding to challenge that his V&V analysis is just an opinion
https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1cow5qm/comment/l3pvcu0/
But it's a lot more than that. You can look at every single instance of vitakka in the EBT suttas, and in LBT. I have. Many times. Through KN Pe, Abhidamma Vb., Vimuttimagga, all are consistent with EBT vitakka (verbal thought). Even in Vism., outside of the redefinition of jhÄna and redefinition of vitakka inside the first jhana redefintion as "striking and threshing at the visual kasina", the rest of Vism. uses vitakka in it's normal EBT usage, as verbal thought. For example, to enter any Vism. "jhÄna", one first has verbal thought, "earth kasina, earth kasina". Same thing with starting formless attainment, infinite space. One first starts with verbally thinking, "earth kasina". They use the word vitakka just like the Buddha did. Only inside first jhÄna redefintion do that redefine vitakka to be the same as what Sujato is claiming is in the EBT.
Also, the tone of your wording sounds uncertain, as if the redefinition of vitakka is controversial, debatable, and you're just expressing one valid opinion among others.
This is not the case. Vitakka absolutely means verbal thought in the EBT, and anyone who actually bothers to look at every occurrence will find that to be the case. It doesn't take that long, especially since I've done the work for you with a digital search and compiled a list and even highlighted the word 'vitakka' everywhere.
V&V all : every. single. reference. to vitakka in the suttas
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/vitakka/all/index.html
sammÄ-sam-buddha vowed to save all beings, or more like "last one to leave the building turn off the lights?"
LotsaKwestions•26m ago
It's a good thing that some beings take on the path to become a sammasambuddha, though, as otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this.
lucid24-frankk
I have my doubts about that. I suspect reality is more like, "last qualified pati eka buddha candidate, turn out the lights when you leave the building."
That is, a pati eka buddha (paccekka), or someone who discovers four noble truths and dependent origination on their own, without the help of learning from a recent Buddha,
are fully qualified to teach, but most are born in time and place with an unqualified audience, so only have few students, a few score, a few hundred, but Dhamma doesn't catch on as popular religion.
Whereas a samma sambuddha is the same makeup and quality as a pati eka buddha, but just happens to be born in a time and place where the audience is ripe and ready to take on the Dhamma whole heartedly.
Just my opinion.
Wednesday, May 8, 2024
puƱƱa: what has more merit? Acts of kindness or meditation?
4š☸ → EBpediaš → puƱƱa
what has more merit? Acts of kindness or meditation?
KN Iti 27 worldly merit, none are worth a sixteenth part of the heart’s release by friendly-kindness
AN 9.20 successfully more meritorious activities, meditation trumps generosity
SN 20.4 a moment of metta more meritorious than offering 100 meals
DN 5.5 successfully more meritorious activities, with 4 jhÄnas and 6 higher knowleges at peak
sÄ«la and dÄna just as important as samÄdhi?
And some comments I made in this discussion,
where someone thinks sÄ«la is not inferior to samÄdhi as described in suttas above
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=762125#p762125
You're missing the point. No one is saying sÄ«la is unnecessary, just because it's inferior to paĆ±Ć±Ä and samÄdhi.
It's about the ceiling.
Someone who only does sila but not samÄdhi has a low ceiling, can not break through to nirvana.
Someone with sÄ«la and samÄdhi has arahntship as a ceiling.
Someone with no sÄ«la, corrupted sÄ«la, with excellent samÄdhi, can not have right samÄdhi and also would have a very low ceiling preventing awakening.
See SN 56.1.
Someone can have the best sila in the world, best demeanor in the world, even better than everyone with samÄdhi, but without samÄdhi, they can't break through to paƱƱa and awakening.
At best they'll just be reborn in favorable realms again and again until they slip up, but always revolving in samsara, just having better karmic fruits than those without sila.
That's the 'ceiling' I refer to.
Someone with the best samÄdhi in the world, but doesn't direct it towards seeing the 4 noble truths, will also be stuck in samsara revolving.
Somone with the best samÄdhi but with poor sÄ«la, will also fall and continue to revolve.
Akashad wrote:
For example,if I wanted a good rebirth or good circumstances wouldn't it be more beneficial for me to practice Dana and Sila than meditation....See my previous answer, but in a sense yes, if you're chasing good karmic rewards and want the slowest way to attain nirvana but in the most comfortable way then focusing time and effort more on sÄ«la and dÄna could have more tangible favorable impact.
For example, some monks who get 4 requisites very easily while other monks struggle to get any,
could be a result of the former doing better dÄna and sÄ«la in past lives.
But the goal should be to attain nirvana as soon as possible, and get out of suffering ASAP,
which is why the Buddha places even a finger snap's time of metta as more meritorious than dÄna and sÄ«la,
and why the jhÄnas and perceiving a moment of impermanence even more meritorious than that.
Monday, May 6, 2024
When's the last time you read a sutta that compared a "noble disciple" to an "un-noble disciple"?
2 – ariya-savaka: noble one’s disciple
ariya-savaka = noble one's disciple. One who hears/learns the teachings of a noble one, but is not necessarily a noble one themself.
I’ve only ever seen ariya-savaka contrasted against ordinary person uneducated (puthujjano), not against an-ariya-savaka (un-noble disciple).
Digital search for “AriyasÄvak” turns up over 200 results,
while searching for “unariyasÄvak” returns 0.
MN 22.10 uneducated ordinary person
Idha, bhikkhave, assutavÄ puthujjano ariyÄnaį¹ adassÄvÄ« ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinÄ«to, sappurisÄnaį¹ adassÄvÄ« sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinÄ«to, | Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the good persons. |
educated noble one’s disciple
SutavÄ ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasÄvako ariyÄnaį¹ dassÄvÄ« ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinÄ«to, sappurisÄnaį¹ dassÄvÄ« sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinÄ«to, | But an educated noble-one's-disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in The Dharma of the good persons. |
Forum discussion
https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistTexts/comments/1clf0xt/comment/l3eizsz/
both bodhi and sujato basically make that disclaimer [that 'ariya savaka' doesn't always mean an enlightened being], but AFAIK always translate ariya savaka as "noble disciple".
what do they THINK people are going to interpret when they see "noble disciple"?
That's like me saying, "Oh, when I say someone is an 'idiot'" it doesn't always mean they're stupid or a fool. They could also be a genius.
In all the posts I've made pointing out situations where it's obviously ariya savaka is not a 'noble disciple', a number of people have made hostile replies defending 'noble disciple' interpretation, all because they understood the English phrase to mean what it looks like it means.
MN 117 Did you know an arahant is not a 'noble disciple'?
That's the kind of problem you get when you wrongly translate and interpret
✅'ariya savaka' (disciple of the noble ones)
as ⛔'noble disciple' (one who is ariya status, stream enterer up to arahant).
without-asinine-inclinations (Äsava) means someone is an arahant.
Here is a Sujato based translation of MN 117 where I haven't made the correction yet:
https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn117/index.html#117.5
So in the case of an arahant, who is the noblest of noble disciples,
It's saying that an arahant is not an arahant where I highlighted, because he has asinine-inclinations.
Or, if you want to still insist ariya-savaka means a disciple who is noble,
this sutta would mean ariya-savaka can only be the 3 lower ariya and exclude arahants.
SammÄÄjÄ«vampahaį¹, bhikkhave, dvÄyaį¹ vadÄmi— | Right livelihood is twofold, I say. |
atthi, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo sÄsavo puƱƱabhÄgiyo upadhivepakko; | There is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. |
atthi, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo ariyo anÄsavo lokuttaro maggaį¹
go. | And there is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path. |
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo sÄsavo puƱƱabhÄgiyo upadhivepakko? | And what is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment? |
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasÄvako micchÄÄjÄ«vaį¹ pahÄya sammÄÄjÄ«vena jÄ«vikaį¹ kappeti— | It’s when a noble disciple gives up wrong livelihood and earns a living by right livelihood. |
ayaį¹, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo sÄsavo puƱƱabhÄgiyo upadhivepakko. | This is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations. |
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo ariyo anÄsavo lokuttaro maggaį¹
go? | And what is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path? |
YÄ kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anÄsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaį¹
gino ariyamaggaį¹ bhÄvayato micchÄÄjÄ«vÄ Ärati virati paį¹ivirati veramaį¹Ä«— | It’s the desisting, abstaining, abstinence, and refraining from wrong livelihood in one of noble mind without-asinine-inclinations, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path. |
ayaį¹, bhikkhave, sammÄÄjÄ«vo ariyo anÄsavo lokuttaro maggaį¹
go. | This is right livelihood that is noble. |
Alternatively, if you consider the wrong livelihood that's abandoned,
KuhanÄ, lapanÄ, nemittikatÄ, nippesikatÄ, lÄbhena lÄbhaį¹ nijigÄ«sanatÄ— | Deception, flattery, hinting, and belittling, and using material possessions to pursue other material possessions. |
non-returners have abandoned the Äsavas that would lead to those types of wrong livelihood.
Their only remaining Äsava has the tiniest trace of self identity and appreciation of efficacy of Dhamma teaching.
So ariya-savaka would exclude Arahants, and non-returners,
and could only be stream enterers and once returners.
Other suttas where ariya-savaka = "noble disciple" result in ridiculous situations
https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#2
Conclusion
✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed).
Forum discussion
https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistTexts/comments/1clf0xt/comment/l2w56qy/?context=3
Grammar experts agree both interpretations [disciple of noble, or noble disciple] are possible, so I felt no need to investigate further.
Besides the Buddha-savaka and other words like that (where it obviously is not a disciple who also happens to be a Buddha), ariya-savaka deviates from that norm without any explanation.
Bodhi and Sujato, the two popular translators who wrongly interpret "noble disciple", have written they believe that sometimes the suttas can not mean "noble disciple", yet AFAIK they still translate it "noble disciple" everywhere, and expect people to figure out for themselves when that is the case.
To me, it's not just that readers sell themselves short, thinking lots of the suttas don't apply to them because the reader is not a stream enterer, but that even for someone striving to be an arahant, it's confusing to read many sutta passages and not know what ariya savaka means there.
An analogy would be, you see a sutta with meditation instructions, it just says requires "samÄdhi", and you have no idea if it means 4th jhÄna is necessary, 1st jhÄna is necessary, or something below first jhÄna.
Thirdly, it just shows negligence and sloppiness on the translators not admitting their mistake, when Thanissaro noticed and addressed the problem long ago, translating it correctly in his suttas.
If someone caught my mistakes, I would admit right away as soon as I confirmed, and go back and fix the translation.
Sunday, May 5, 2024
translating viharati: "enter and remain in jhÄna" makes it seem like you rent an Air Bnb for one week out of the whole year
https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1ck8tlv/enter_and_remain_in_the_first_jhana_jhana_question/
The way most translators render [the four jhÄna formula with "he enters and remains in"]
Do you only do satipatthana one week out of the year?
Do you only do right effort one week out of the year?
They also are described with viharati "enters and remains in".
A better way to translate would consistently render right sati, right samÄdhi, right effort the same way.
"araddha viriyam viharati" = he lives arousing vigor (of 4 right efforts).
"kaye kÄya anupassi viharati" = he lives continuously seeing the body as a body truly is.
"š paį¹hamaį¹ jhÄnaį¹ upasampajja viharati" = he attains and lives in first jhÄna
Sujato sometimes translates 'viharati' as 'lives', sometimes as 'meditate'
Conclusion
Forum discussion
'dwell' is a great translation for viharati, BUT...
Friday, May 3, 2024
The short answer: the minimum amount of samÄdhi needed for the lowest level of nobility, stream entry
At the very minimum, a finger snap's moment of first jhÄna is needed for stream entry (guaranteed nirvana in 7 lifetimes or less).
While there is no sutta that explicitly says it like that,
it's a necessary conclusion from both deduction and inference after reading all the suttas.
Otherwise, how could an eightfold path, the only path that leads to nirvana, mention 4 jhÄnas under right samÄdhi,
A new translation of SN 47.10: how to first and second jhÄna in plain simple English
47.10 - SN 47.10 Bhikkhun’-upassaya: The Nuns’ Quarters
The essential part:
47.10.7 - (7sb☀️ bodhi-anga derived sequence)
TenÄnanda, bhikkhunÄ kismiƱcideva pasÄdanÄ«ye nimitte cittaį¹ paį¹idahitabbaį¹. | That monk should direct their mind towards an inspiring sign. |
Tassa kismiƱcideva pasÄdanÄ«ye nimitte cittaį¹ paį¹idahato pÄmojjaį¹ jÄyati. | As they attend to that sign, [an inspiring recollection relevant to skillful Dharmas], they rejoice. |
Pamuditassa pÄ«ti jÄyati. | Rejoicing [in skillful Dharmas], mental-joy [of first and second jhÄna] springs up. |
PÄ«timanassa kÄyo passambhati. | When the mind is full of mental-joy, the body becomes pacified. |
PassaddhakÄyo sukhaį¹ vedayati. | When the body is pacified, one feels [physical] pleasure. |
Sukhino cittaį¹ samÄdhiyati. | And when pleasure [pervades the body], the mind becomes undistractible-&-lucid in samÄdhi. |
47.10.8 - (no more need for V&Vš , passed from first to second jhÄna)
So iti paį¹isaƱcikkhati: | Then they [equanimously] observe: |
‘yassa khvÄhaį¹ atthÄya cittaį¹ paį¹idahiį¹, so me attho abhinipphanno. | ‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind. |
Handa dÄni paį¹isaį¹harÄmÄ«’ti. | Let me now pull back.’ |
So paį¹isaį¹harati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicÄreti. | They pull back from [first jhÄna, which involves] directing and evaluating thoughts [based on skillful Dharmas]. |
‘Avitakkomhi avicÄro, | They lucidly-discern: ‘I’m neither directing-thoughts nor evaluating them, |
ajjhattaį¹ | internally [I have purity and confidence in Dharma and myself]. |
satimÄ | I’m simply remembering and applying Dharma [without using mental words]. |
sukhamasmÄ«’ti pajÄnÄti. | I abide in the pleasure [of second jhÄna or something higher] .’ |
47.10.10 - (remaining 3 of 4spš done just like above)
Puna caparaį¹, Änanda, bhikkhu vedanÄsu … pe … | Furthermore, a monk lives seeing sensations as sensations truly are … |
citte … pe … | a monk lives seeing the mind as the mind truly is… |
dhammesu dhammÄnupassÄ« viharati ÄtÄpÄ« sampajÄno satimÄ, vineyya loke abhijjhÄdomanassaį¹. | A monk lives seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is —ardent, lucidly-discerning, and remembering and applying Dharma, rid of desire and aversion for the world. |
Tassa dhammesu dhammÄnupassino viharato dhammÄrammaį¹o vÄ uppajjati kÄyasmiį¹ pariįø·Äho, cetaso vÄ lÄ«nattaį¹, bahiddhÄ vÄ cittaį¹ vikkhipati. | As they live seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is, based on [this fourth frame of remembering and applying] Dharma, there arises physical tension, or mental sluggishness, or the mind is externally scattered. |
(for examples of inspiring nimittas (signs), MN 20, AN 6.10)
Compare with Sujato's incoherent translation and interpretation of the same sutta:
SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaį¹į¹hÄna, and seven awakening factors
Thursday, May 2, 2024
ššGoldcraft volume 2 notes
Queue of articles that haven't made it into the book yet
SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaį¹į¹hÄna, and seven awakening factors
SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaį¹į¹hÄna, and seven awakening factors
His translation, as of today's date.
SN 47.10: Bhikkhunupassayasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)
Being joyful, rapture springs up.Pamuditassa pÄ«ti jÄyati.When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil.PÄ«timanassa kÄyo passambhati.When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss.PassaddhakÄyo sukhaį¹ vedayati.And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samÄdhi.Sukhino cittaį¹ samÄdhiyati.Then they reflect:So iti paį¹isaƱcikkhati:‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind.‘yassa khvÄhaį¹ atthÄya cittaį¹ paį¹idahiį¹, so me attho abhinipphanno.Let me now pull back.’Handa dÄni paį¹isaį¹harÄmÄ«’ti.They pull back, and neither place the mind nor keep it connected.So paį¹isaį¹harati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicÄreti.They understand: ‘I’m neither placing the mind nor keeping it connected. Mindful within myself, I’m happy.’‘Avitakkomhi avicÄro, ajjhattaį¹ satimÄ sukhamasmÄ«’ti pajÄnÄti.
There are many problems with this, but for now I'm just going to point out this big one.
His use of 'place the mind' (for vitakka) shows he believes this seven awakening factor sequence is a first jhÄna and second jhÄna boundary context.
Take note of this word I highlighted in his translation
B. Sujato has attempted to justify his translation of vitakka in first jhÄna as 'placing the mind' (on a visual kasina, as in Vism. or Ajahn Brahm redefinition of jhÄna), because he claims the Buddha lacked the pÄįø·i vocabulary to indicate the "placing of mind" or "mounting the mind on a meditation object", and therefore vitakka has to take on a more subtle meaning in jhÄna context.
If the Buddha had wanted to vitakka to do Sujato's "placing the mind", he simply could have used 'panidahi', instead of redefining a fundamental term.