When's the last time you read a sutta that compared a "noble disciple" to an "un-noble disciple"?

2 – ariya-savaka: noble one’s disciple

ariya-savaka = noble one's disciple. One who hears/learns the teachings of a noble one, but is not necessarily a noble one themself.

I’ve only ever seen ariya-savaka contrasted against ordinary person uneducated (puthujjano), not against an-ariya-savaka (un-noble disciple).
Digital search for “Ariyasāvak” turns up over 200 results,
while searching for “unariyasāvak” returns 0.

MN ^22.10 uneducated ordinary person

Idha, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto,

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the good persons.

educated noble one’s disciple

Sutavā ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinīto,

But an educated noble-one's-disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in The Dharma of the good persons.

MN 117 Did you know an arahant is not a 'noble disciple'?

 

That's the kind of problem you get when you wrongly translate and interpret

✅'ariya savaka' (disciple of the noble ones) 

as ⛔'noble disciple' (one who is ariya status, stream enterer up to arahant).

without-asinine-inclinations (āsava)  means someone is an arahant.

Here is a Sujato based translation of MN 117  where I haven't made the correction yet:

https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn117/index.html#117.5

So in the case of  an arahant, who is the noblest of noble disciples,

It's saying that an arahant is not an arahant where I highlighted, because he has asinine-inclinations.

Or, if you want to still insist ariya-savaka means a disciple who is noble,

this sutta would mean ariya-savaka can only be the 3 lower ariya and exclude arahants.

Sammāājīvampahaṃ, bhikkhave, dvāyaṃ vadāmi—	Right livelihood is twofold, I say.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko;	There is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.	And there is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko?	And what is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment?
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako micchāājīvaṃ pahāya sammāājīvena jīvikaṃ kappeti—	It’s when a noble disciple gives up wrong livelihood and earns a living by right livelihood.
ayaṃ, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko.	This is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo?	And what is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path?
Yā kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato micchāājīvā ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī—	It’s the desisting, abstaining, abstinence, and refraining from wrong livelihood in one of noble mind without-asinine-inclinations, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.
ayaṃ, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.	This is right livelihood that is noble.

Alternatively, if you consider the wrong livelihood that's abandoned,

Kuhanā, lapanā, nemittikatā, nippesikatā, lābhena lābhaṃ nijigīsanatā—

Deception, flattery, hinting, and belittling, and using material possessions to pursue other material possessions.

non-returners have abandoned the āsavas that would lead to those types of wrong livelihood.

Their only remaining āsava has the tiniest trace of self identity and appreciation of efficacy of Dhamma teaching. 

So ariya-savaka would exclude Arahants, and non-returners,

and could only be stream enterers and once returners. 

Other suttas where ariya-savaka = "noble disciple" result in ridiculous situations

https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#2

Conclusion

✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed).

translating viharati: "enter and remain in jhāna" makes it seem like you rent an Air Bnb for one week out of the whole year

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1ck8tlv/enter_and_remain_in_the_first_jhana_jhana_question/




The way most translators render [the four jhāna formula with "he enters and remains in"]

 make it seem like jhāna is something you only do occasionally and with great effort and intention. 

But viharati ("dwells in") isn't just an Air BNB rental that you rent for one week out of the entire year.

Do you only do satipatthana one week out of the year?

Do you only do right effort one week out of the year?

They also are described with viharati "enters and remains in".

A better way to translate would consistently render right sati, right samādhi, right effort the same way.

"araddha viriyam viharati" = he lives arousing vigor (of 4 right efforts).

"kaye kāya anupassi viharati" = he lives continuously seeing the body as a body truly is.

"🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati" = he attains and lives in first jhāna

Sujato sometimes translates 'viharati' as 'lives', sometimes as 'meditate'

It's not wrong, and if you're the type of person that thinks you should be meditating (in any posture, activity) all the time, then no problem.

But I would bet most people don't think of 'meditate' that way.  

They think of it as something you only do once in a while, once a week maybe, or 20 minutes a day. 

Conclusion

Common sense dictates that when you acquire a wonderful skill, you apply it to your life, develop it and constantly strive to improve that skill as much as possible whenever possible.

"enter and remain in jhāna" makes it seem like you rent an Air Bnb for one week out of the whole year.

Why rent for a measly one week when you can own it and live in it all the time?

🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati" = he attains and lives in first jhāna

Forum discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1cknpfr/comment/l2o2ei3/?context=3

Spirited_Ad8737

5h ago

I believe I remember seeing "abides in", as another possible alternative to your suggestion.

lucid24-frankk

OP

•

in 1m

I've seen it translated with 'abide', but I don't think the modern defn. fits:

oxford american dictionary has the 'live, dwell' meaning for 'abide' under archaic.

əˈbīd

a·bide

v.

1) [intrans.] abide by accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation)

I said I would abide by their decision

2) [trans.] can/could not abide informal be unable to tolerate (someone or something)

if there is one thing I cannot abide it is a lack of discipline

3) [intrans.] (of a feeling or a memory) continue without fading or being lost

■ archaic live; dwell

'dwell' is a great translation for viharati, BUT...

In pali, vihāra is a dwelling. (noun)

viharati (verb) = dwell

But again, it runs into same problem as 'meditate', where you don't think of it as something you 24/7.

I dwelled in the dwelling when it rained.

I dwelled in my dwelling at night and then had breakfast and spent the next 16 hours outside of my dwelling.

But 'living' is something everyone knows you do 24/7

The short answer: the minimum amount of samādhi needed for the lowest level of nobility, stream entry

At the very minimum, a finger snap's moment of first jhāna is needed for stream entry (guaranteed nirvana in 7 lifetimes or less).
While there is no sutta that explicitly says it like that,
it's a necessary conclusion from both deduction and inference after reading all the suttas.
Otherwise, how could an eightfold path, the only path that leads to nirvana, mention 4 jhānas under right samādhi, 

but neglect to mention there is a special kind of inferior samādhi (below first jhāna) that leads to nirvana?

A new translation of SN 47.10: how to first and second jhāna in plain simple English

 

A bare bones literal translation of this sutta is terse and somewhat cryptic if you don't have basic things memorized and understood prior, like the 4 jhāna formula.

What I translate and include in [] square brackets are bits of information from related suttas that help you connect the dots, resulting in usable instructions to get into first and second jhāna.

47.10 - SN 47.10 Bhikkhun’-upassaya: The Nuns’ Quarters

(2024 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ )
    SN ^47.10 - SN 47.10 Bhikkhunupassaya: The Nuns’ Quarters
        SN ^47.10.1 - (nuns tell Ānanda about progress in 4sp🐘 practice)
        SN ^47.10.2 - (Ananda goes to see Buddha and tells him what happened, as above)
        SN ^47.10.4 - (Buddha approves)
        SN ^47.10.5 - (While in 4sp🐘 , how to ward off 5niv⛅ hindrances)
        SN ^47.10.7 - (7sb☀️ bodhi-anga derived sequence)
        SN ^47.10.8 - (no more need for V&V💭 , passed from first to second jhāna)
        SN ^47.10.10 - (remaining 3 of 4sp🐘 done just like above)
        SN ^47.10.15 - (Undirected, ap-panidhāya, development)
        SN ^47.10.20 - (conclusion: jhāyatha! You must practice jhāna!)

The essential part:

47.10.7 - (7sb☀️ bodhi-anga derived sequence)

Tenānanda, bhikkhunā kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahitabbaṃ.	That monk should direct their mind towards an inspiring sign.
Tassa kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahato pāmojjaṃ jāyati.	As they attend to that sign, [an inspiring recollection relevant to skillful Dharmas], they rejoice.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.	Rejoicing [in skillful Dharmas], mental-joy [of first and second jhāna] springs up.
Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.	When the mind is full of mental-joy, the body becomes pacified.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedayati.	When the body is pacified, one feels [physical] pleasure.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.	And when pleasure [pervades the body], the mind becomes undistractible-&-lucid in samādhi.

47.10.8 - (no more need for V&V💭 , passed from first to second jhāna)

So iti paṭisañcikkhati:	Then they [equanimously] observe:
‘yassa khvāhaṃ atthāya cittaṃ paṇidahiṃ, so me attho abhinipphanno.	‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind.
Handa dāni paṭisaṃharāmī’ti.	Let me now pull back.’
So paṭisaṃharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti.	They pull back from [first jhāna, which involves] directing and evaluating thoughts [based on skillful Dharmas].
‘Avitakkomhi avicāro,	They lucidly-discern: ‘I’m neither directing-thoughts nor evaluating them,
ajjhattaṃ	internally [I have purity and confidence in Dharma and myself].
satimā	I’m simply remembering and applying Dharma [without using mental words].
sukhamasmī’ti pajānāti.	I abide in the pleasure [of second jhāna or something higher] .’

47.10.10 - (remaining 3 of 4sp🐘 done just like above)

Puna caparaṃ, ānanda, bhikkhu vedanāsu … pe …	Furthermore, a monk lives seeing sensations as sensations truly are …
citte … pe …	a monk lives seeing the mind as the mind truly is…
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.	A monk lives seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is —ardent, lucidly-discerning, and remembering and applying Dharma, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Tassa dhammesu dhammānupassino viharato dhammārammaṇo vā uppajjati kāyasmiṃ pariḷāho, cetaso vā līnattaṃ, bahiddhā vā cittaṃ vikkhipati.	As they live seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is, based on [this fourth frame of remembering and applying] Dharma, there arises physical tension, or mental sluggishness, or the mind is externally scattered.

(for examples of inspiring nimittas (signs), MN ²⁰, AN ^6.10)

Compare with Sujato's incoherent translation and interpretation of the same sutta:

SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaṭṭhāna, and seven awakening factors

🔗📝Goldcraft volume 2 notes

 

Queue of articles that haven't made it into the book yet

SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaṭṭhāna, and seven awakening factors

SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaṭṭhāna, and seven awakening factors

 

His translation, as of today's date.

SN 47.10: Bhikkhunupassayasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)

Being joyful, rapture springs up.Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil.Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss.Passaddhakāyo sukhaṁ vedayati.And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.Sukhino cittaṁ samādhiyati.Then they reflect:So iti paṭisañcikkhati:‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind.‘yassa khvāhaṁ atthāya cittaṁ paṇidahiṁ, so me attho abhinipphanno.Let me now pull back.’Handa dāni paṭisaṁharāmī’ti.They pull back, and neither place the mind nor keep it connected.So paṭisaṁharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti.They understand: ‘I’m neither placing the mind nor keeping it connected. Mindful within myself, I’m happy.’‘Avitakkomhi avicāro, ajjhattaṁ satimā sukhamasmī’ti pajānāti.

There are many problems with this, but for now I'm just going to point out this big one.

His use of 'place the mind' (for vitakka) shows he believes this seven awakening factor sequence is a first jhāna and second jhāna boundary context.

Take note of this word I highlighted in his translation

paṇidahi

aor. (+acc) guided; directed; determined; intended; aimed [pa + ni + √dhā + a + i] ✓

B. Sujato has attempted to justify his translation of vitakka in first jhāna as 'placing the mind' (on a visual kasina, as in Vism. or Ajahn Brahm redefinition of jhāna), because he claims the Buddha lacked the pāḷi vocabulary to indicate the "placing of mind" or "mounting the mind on a meditation object", and therefore vitakka has to take on a more subtle meaning in jhāna context.

Well here's just one example of a word which the Buddha supposedly doesn't possess,  paṇidahi.
If the Buddha had wanted to vitakka to do Sujato's "placing the mind", he simply could have used 'panidahi', instead of redefining a fundamental term. 

'vitakka' means linguistic verbal thought in every occurrence in the suttas, whether in jhāna or not.

And there are actually many other words the Buddha could have used.

If the Buddha had actually intended vitakka of first jhāna to mean what Sujato wants vitakka to mean,

He simply could have used, instead of vitakka, 

1. citta-sankhāra (mental fabrication, mental co-activity)

2. vitakka-sankhāra (thought formation, thought fabrication, thought co-activities that underly verbal thought)

3. mano-sankhāra,

(all 3 of those come in jhāna, samādhi, psychic power mind reading context)

MN 111 which describes in detail what factors are operating during the practice of each of the four jhānas and nine meditation attainments,

has cetana (volition), 

adhimokkha (decision),

chanda (desire),

Those all overlap with "placing the mind" or "mounting the mind on a kasina", or "initial application of mind".

Conclusion

There is no justification for Sujato redefining vitakka in the jhāna context when plenty of pāḷi meditation terms already exist in the suttas, to perform "placing the mind",  as shown above.

from Sujato's article on "Why vitakka doesn’t mean ‘thinking’ in jhana"

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/why-vitakka-doesnt-mean-thinking-injhana/ Why vitakka doesn’t mean ‘thinking’ in jhana

 

It is in this way, I believe, that the innocent term vitakka has taken on a whole

new life. In Pali it had a certain spectrum or flexibility of meaning, such that the

Buddha could prod it out of its everyday meaning of ‘thought’ and tease it into a

new meaning, ‘application of the mind on to its object in profound meditation’

Just for fun

Sit, down, meditate, try to follow Sujato's  (translation of the Buddha's) meditation instructions above in SN 47.10.

Even if you can do the Vism. or Ajahn Brahm redefinition of first and second jhāna,

I have no idea how you're going to get there following that translation.

A rational person at this point, would rightly question, maybe Sujato isn't translating and interpreting the sutta passages [on jhāna] correctly?

is nirvana in present moment same as nirvana of arahant after death?

 excerpt from  only 1 way‍ ^4.3.10.50 Relevant Suttas on third noble truth and nirvana

Experience of Nibbāna in present moment (before death of arahant)

AN ^3.32 similar to AN ^10.6 “this is peaceful, exquisite, the setlling of all activities…”, but does not explain how ordinary jhānas and samādhi can experience that nirvana

AN ^9.36 while doing 4 jhānas or first 7 perception attainments, one can realize nirvana

amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati	citta touching the deathless property,

AN ^10.6 nirvana experienced via a samādhi and perception

* not a samādhi that perceives 4 elements, or 4 formless attainments,…

* Buddha perceives nirvana as “peaceful, exquisite, all activities setlled…”

AN ^10.7 Sāriputta gives slightly different explanation than Buddha in AN ^10.6

AN ^11.7 same as AN ^10.6 but one more item added

* (11) And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, cognized, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.

* Sariputta also gives same answer as Buddha in AN 10.6, instead of his unique answer in AN ^10.7

AN ^11.8 essentially same as AN 11.7, but now gives the key words paying attention (manasi karoti) the same lattitude as the sañña/perception there (to experience nirvana).

* also adds a 12th category to list of exclusion, the 5 sense organs of body and their 5 objects.

AN ^11.9 as AN 11.8 added term manasi karoti to samādhi related terms that can perceive Nirvana, this sutta adds “jhāna” and verb jhāyati (do jhāna).

AN ^11.18 same as AN ^11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN ^11.19 same as AN ^11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN ^11.20 same as AN ^11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN ^11.21 same as AN ^11.7 just different speaker and audience

The point of AN 11.18-21 is to show it’s a common thing for many monks to ask for more detail on the experience of nirvana, and the “this is peaceful…” along with the list of 12 exclusion of what nirvana isn’t, is pretty much the standard accepted answer.

MN ⁶⁴ same as AN ^9.36 but without the archer simile

KN Ud 8.1 nirvana called “āyatana” dimension, referring to the same characteristics as AN ^10.6

KN Ud 8.4 (Quoted in MN ¹⁴⁴ and SN ^35.87, similar passage in SN ^12.40 as well)

---

also see:

etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ (this is peaceful, this is exquisite)

anidassana : unclear if viññāna anidassana is exactly the same as the nirvana that can be perceived by a samādhi in the present moment in the suttas above, or is reserved for nirvana after death of an arahant. In MN ^49.9.7 not clear if the Buddha used anidassana as the place where Brahma couldn’t find him, because he used psychic powers to project voice to say to Brahma “you can’t see me.” He could have gone to anidassana, and then switched into a more mundane samādhi with psychic power, or only entered a mundane samādhi to escape from Brahma.

AN ^9.37.4.4 uncertain if the special kind of samādhi here is perception of nirvana

---

million dollar question: is the perception of nirvana from a samādhi in the present moment exactly the same as the experience of nirvana for an arahant after their physical death?

The suttas above make it absolutely clear the present moment nirvana is not just ordinary jhāna doing ordinary vitakka or paying attention to ordinary perceptions of being free of greed, hatred, delusion.

(see the exhaustive lists from AN 11 and AN 10 what what perception of nirvana is NOT)

Framing the question in the title in a better way

(not implying an arahant exists after death)

using the terminology of Iti 44, there are two types of nibbana properties. One with remainder (5 bodily senses active), one without remainder (dead).

You would think the nibbana that ariyas who are alive experience of nibbana with remainder, has some qualitative difference than nibbana without remainder.

However, the sutta passages in AN 10 and AN 11 describing how an arahant can experience nirvana with a type of samādhi and perception, exclude four jhānas, four formless attainments, what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, explored (vicāra), and even 5 bodily senses excluded.

So it would seem in such a state of special samādhi, they are experiencing nibbana without remainder with the 5 bodily senses gone.

Perhaps nirvana with remainder is only referring to when ariya are not in that special samādhi, they enjoy the nibbana of being free of greed, hatred, delusion, but they still have the dukkha that comes with a physical body.

🔗📝collection of notes on Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ:

 Internal

pattern "anidass" appears in 5 suttas:

DN ^11.4.1 where nāma, rūpa, viññāna cease without remainder

DN ^33.3 threefold classification of rūpa with 4 permutations of visible (dassana) and resistant (patigha)

MN ^21.6 sky is ākāso arūpī anidassano, formless and invisible

MN ^49.9.7 Buddha says Brahma has no knowledge of Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ

SN ^43.44 Anidassanañca is listed among other synonyms for nirvana

DN 33 is not talking about viññāna, just rūpa.

MN 21 context is doing metta to the whole world, so even though viññāna is not mentioned, but metta can be done with 4 jhānas (which operate in rūpa) or formless dimensions.

The remaining 3 suttas all seem to be the context of samādhi perceiving nirvana.

so what is the best translation for anidassana? Sujato's "invisible consciousness" is untenable if we assume it should have the same translation for all 5 suttas.

And DN 11 and SN 43 show this state is definitely not referring the dimension of infinite consciousness.

In DN 11, in this state nāma, rūpa, viññāna all cease. Obviously those things can't cease in dimension of infinite consciousness.

Translations for anidassana:

Bodhi: unmanifest

Thanissaro: without surface:

External

Essay by Charlie

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/dn11-five-aggregates-vinanna-anidassana/31147

Essay by Sunyo (proposing this is formless state of infinite consciousness)

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vinna-a-anidassana-the-state-of-boundless-consciousness/22262

Indian, Thai, Sri Lankan, Burmese: how accurate is their pronunciation of pāḷi

 

Re: How to easily learn to pronounce Pali words?

• Report
• Quote

Unread post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:40 pm

Here's Ven Dhammanando's comments on the matter:

Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:06 am

Srilankaputra wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:21 pmBhante,

How close do you think the current pronunciation of pali to the original?

Assuming that the phonetic descriptions given in the ancient Pali grammars are correct, then the modern way of pronunciation that comes closest to this is that of Indian and Bangladeshi bhikkhus. Typically they'll get all the sounds correct except the palatals ca and ja.

After the Indians the next best are the Sinhalese. Their main mistake is either to fail to aspirate the aspirated consonants (e.g., dha as da, ṭha as ṭa) or to hypercorrect by pronouncing non-aspirates as aspirates, e.g., mettā as metthā.

As for modern SE Asian ways of pronunciation, these are all very poor, with at least half of the consonants mispronounced. The pronunciation of the Thais and Cambodians is about equally bad; that of the Laotians is a bit worse and that of the Burmese the worst of all.

The typical pronunciation of an English-speaking Western bhikkhu will contain about the same number of mistakes as that of the Thais. Our main ones are not bothering to distinguish retroflex and dental consonants, but realizing both types as alveolars, aspirating ka, ta and pa, incorrect syllabification when a vagga consonant is followed by an avagga, turning doubled consonants into single ones (e.g., dhammaŋ as /damaŋ/), and turning the vowel in unstressed syllables into a schwa (e.g., a British Buddhist will probably pronounce buddha as /'budə/, while an American will do so as /'būdə/).

[His warning about the back-reading of Sinhala meanings into Pali of some Sri Lankan teachers
(viewtopic.php?p=421520#p421520) is also pertinent. Speaking a language that has evolved from languages related to Pali over a couple of thousand years doesn't necessarily make one an expert on Pali nuances.]

I've found it interesting to be currently doing weekly sits with a Sri Lankan group, where we also chant homages, precepts, and the Metta Sutta. I'm used to Thai chanting and don't have to make too many pronunciation adjustments apart from modifying the trailing "a"s into "err"s (Sambuddhaserr), but my ear for the minutiae is not great. A big difference is pitch. Thai people generally back-read Thai tone rules, giving predictable pitches. From my perspective (I may be wrong and they may follow some convnetion) the Sri Lankans appear to vary their pitch quite randomly, which can lead to a certain amount of dissonance. They also go awefully fast!

To me, chanting is a powerful community bond, so I make an effort to fit into whichever group I find myself in.

pāḷi chanting with no soul, understanding long and short syllables

 In pāḷi chanting, long syllables are twice as long (temporal) as short syllables.

This gives chanting kind of syncopated rhythm, kind of like jazz.

It's not just an aesthetic issue  or a minor detail that you can choose to obey if you like.

If you don't get the long and short correct, you're often saying a completely different word

with a completely different meaning.

In an oral tradition, where Dhamma (teachings) are recited, memorized, the syncopated rhythm helps to differentiate words and phrases when you memorize it.

It gives you audio cues for your memory to detect errors when you've for example reciting a sutta you haven't done in a long time.

As opposed to if the rhythm of the memorized Dhamma words was not syncopated, it would sound more bland, monotone, undifferentiated, and harder to detect memorization errors.

Following the proper rules of chanting pāḷi is like the difference between this:

and this.

Sanskrit pronunciation, as far as I can tell, on the rules of long syllables being twice as long (temporal) as short syllables,  is nearly identical to pāḷi.

Here's a very good chanting of the Heart Sutra in Sanskrit.

Be sure to turn on close captions, for sanskrit text, you can recognize the same pali words in there.

Here is the same heart sutra, with no regard for pronunciation rules, especially the differentiation between long and short syllables.

🔗📝collection of notes on kāya-saṅ-khāra

Internal 

4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → kāya-saṅ-khāra 

  

survey of all occurrences in the 5 nikāyas

External 🔗📝

William Chu with illuminating kāya sankhāra notes from Agama EBT perspective
Vimt. chinese -> English passage correction: sound is a thorn in first jhana, relation to arupa and alara kalama 500 carts

A. Brahmali cites MN 52 and MN 64 as evidence that one has to emerge from jhāna to contemplate Dharma

 https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/what-ven-analayo-gets-wrong-about-samadhi-part-ii/33515/9

@HinM wrote:

Ven Analayo is correct in saying that Jhana is too refined a state to investigate anything.

@Brahmali response:  

Jhānas are contemplated after one emerges from them, see for instance MN 52 and MN 64.

Let's see what the pāḷi source text actually says:

MN 64 (Frank's Eng. translation) says

STED first jhāna j1🌘 )

🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi	Judiciously-secluded from desire for five cords of sensual pleasures,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi	Judiciously-secluded from unskillful ☸Dharmas,
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ	with directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	with [mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure born from judicious-seclusion,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in first jhāna.

So yadeva tattha hoti rūpagataṃ vedanāgataṃ saññāgataṃ saṅkhāragataṃ viññāṇagataṃ te dhamme

They see those dharmas there [while in jhāna]—included in form, feeling, perception, co-activities, and consciousness—as

(11ada💩 ways of seeing 5uk as dukkha)

a-niccato dukkhato	(1) im-permanent, (2) pain-&-suffering,
rogato gaṇḍato	(3) diseased, (4) an abscess,
sallato aghato	(5) a dart, (6) misery,
ābādhato parato	(7) an affliction, (8) alien,
palokato suññato	(9) falling apart, (10) empty,
anattato	(11) not-self,
samanupassati.	They see [5 aggregates while in jhāna having those 11 properties].

Now let's look at MN 64, but using Sujato's and B. Bodhi's translation

Sujato has

Householder, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.“Idha, gahapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.Then they reflect:So iti paṭisañcikkhati:‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’‘idampi kho paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ.

Sujato inserted "Then" himself. It's not in the pāḷi. 

B. Bodhi has

4. “Here, householder, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
He considers this and understands it thus:
‘This first jhāna is conditioned and volitionally produced.

Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali adding "THEN" is only because they understand their redefined Jhāna (different than the EBT suttas) to be a disembodied mental paralysis which one has to emerge from before contemplating Dharma.

I don't believe the Pāḷi grammar supports such ambiguous temporal distortion where you can freely decide whether something is concurrent, or discrete sequence of incompatible actions (having to first emerge from jhāna, before being able to contemplate Dharma).

But for the sake of argument, let's say Sujato is correct and the grammar does support that.

Frankk shows fallacy in Brahmali's reasoning:

Hypothetical example.

(frank describing what happens):

John is walking, while carrying a cup of coffee. He started drinking coffee.

(sujato describing the same scene):

John is walking, while carrying a cup of coffee. AND THEN He started drinking coffee.

According to Brahmali's reasoning, 

therefore John must have exited the state of walking before one can then begin drinking coffee.

But in reality, we know it's possible to be walking and drinking coffee at the same time.

Conclusion

Drinking coffee does not mean one had to first exit the state of walking before one could drink.

MN 52 and MN 64 is not evidence that one has to first exit jhāna before contemplating Dharma.

And if that's the best evidence Brahmali can come up with, you have to wonder if he has a valid interpretation of jhāna?

Ask him about MN 111 and AN 9.36 for example. 

Why would the Buddha have to make a special explicit statement about emerging from 8th and 9th attainment, and assuming "it's just understood" one has to emerge from the four jhānas?

 MN ¹¹¹ - MN 111 anu-pada: one after another
    MN ^111.1 - (smd1: 1st jhāna)
        MN ^111.1.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.2 - (smd2: 2nd jhāna)
        MN ^111.2.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.3 - (smd3: 3rd jhāna)
        MN ^111.3.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.4 - (smd4: 4th jhāna)
        MN ^111.4.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.5 - (smd 5: infinite space)
        MN ^111.5.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.6 - (smd 6: infinite consciousness)
        MN ^111.6.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.7 - (smd 7: nothingness dimension – perception attainments you do vipassana simultaneously in jhāna/samādhi)
        MN ^111.7.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.8 - (smd 8: requires “emerging” from attainment before doing vipassana)
        MN ^111.8.1 - (vipassana after emerging from attainment)
    MN ^111.9 - (smd 9: requires “emerging” from attainment before doing vipassana)
        MN ^111.9.1 - (Sariputta ended āsavā, becomes an arahant in this attainment)
        MN ^111.9.2 - (vipassana after emerging from attainment)
        MN ^111.9.5 – (there is no further escape beyond 9th attainment)
    MN ^111.10 – (conclusion: Sariputta is son of the Buddha, keeps rolling the wheel of Dharma)

And why is it in the 4 jhānas one can contemplate rūpa (physical form) and not be able to contemplate rūpa in the first 3 formless attainments?

https://lucid24.org/an/main/an09/index.html#9.36

Think about that carefully. If "it's understood one has to emerge from jhāna" before contemplating rūpa,

then in the formless attainments, in AN 9.36 it should allow you to contemplate form, since you've supposedly already emerged from the disembodied paralysis.

But it shows you can only contemplate 4 of the aggregates, excluding form:

9.36.5 – (Ākāsā-nañc-āyatanam: dimension of infinite space)

‘Ākāsānañcāyatanampāhaṃ, bhikkhave, jhānaṃ nissāya āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ.	‘The dimension of infinite space is also a basis for ending the asinine-inclinations.’
Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?	That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.	Take a monk who, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.

9.36.5.1 - (doing vipassana while in formless perception attainments, can not perceive rūpa physical body, can realize Nirvana)

So yadeva tattha hoti vedanāgataṃ saññāgataṃ saṅkhāragataṃ viññāṇagataṃ, te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato gaṇḍato sallato aghato ābādhato parato palokato suññato anattato samanupassati.	They contemplate the dharma there—included in feeling, perception, co-doings, and consciousness [no form here!]—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpeti.	They turn their mind away from those dharmas,
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati:	and apply it to the deathless:
‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.	‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, nirvāṇa.’

Which means you are still in a formless state while you're doing that contemplation (of 4 mental aggregates).

Ask Brahm, Sujato, Brahmali, Analayo about that.

See what they say.

(sound of crickets chirping).

And this also means you're not in a mental paralysis, which is how LBT Theravāda redefines 4 jhānas and first 3 perception formless attainments.

You can contemplate Dharmas (with non verbal mental processing) WHILE in the 4 jhānas and 7 perception attainments, by means of sampajāno, dhamma-vicaya, upekkha (upa+ikkhati).  

(crickets still chirping).

woman with dream premonition called out of work and avoids car crash, salmon rushdie had premonition, ignored it, stabbed 15 times almost died

 

salman rushdie had premonition, ignored it, stabbed 15 times almost died

13 min. interview on 60 minutes show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALh6y_wbp98

You may remember Salmon, who had a fatwa by Ayatollah issued (asking muslims to kill salman) for writing a book considered offensive to Muslims.

Interesting juxtaposition with another story that happened today.

A woman had two dreams, same morning, very vivid warning her not to go to work or else she'd be seriously injured in a car crash.

She heeded the warning, lived.

Salmon also had a dream before his attempted murder, told his wife he didn't want to go to the event (where he would be attacked and stabbed 15 times).

Then he thought, "it's just a dream, why should I believe it?"

woman with dream premonition called out of work and avoids car crash

New Jersey toll collector with ‘premonition’ called out of work before garbage truck crashed into booth

By  Aneeta Bhole

Published April 15, 2024, 11:51 p.m. ET

https://nypost.com/2024/04/15/us-news/new-jersey-toll-worker-saved-by-premonition/

Talk about a sixth sense!

A New Jersey toll booth attendant escaped potential injury or worse after she called out of work because of a premonition — the same day a garbage truck crashed into the toll plaza.

Jessica Daley, who works along the Garden State Parkway, told NBC New York she was jolted awake Friday morning with a “bad gut feeling … like something terrible was going to happen.”

A second warning came at 4 a.m., when she felt she was “going to get in a car accident.”

Jessica Daley told NBC New York she was awakened with a “bad gut feeling… like something terrible was going to happen.”

 3

Jessica Daley told NBC New York she had a “bad gut feeling … like something terrible was going to happen.”

 nbcnewyork

“It was so strong, that I actually called out and I never call out of work,” Daley told the broadcaster.

Four hours later, a garbage truck slammed into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza — the booth Daley is usually in.

An explosion of debris hit a nearby Chevy pickup truck and the toll booth.

 A toll collector and the driver of the vehicle suffered serious injuries.

“My immediate response, honestly, I dropped to my knees and just started crying.

 I was praying for everybody involved and thanking God that I had that feeling to call out,” she said when she’d been told of the accident soon after.

State police are still investigating the crash, and a spokesperson for the New Jersey Turnpike Authority said the injured toll collector has left the hospital.

A garbage truck is shown slamming into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza.

 3

A garbage truck slams into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza.

 NJDOT

Daley and her family were left with mixed emotions.

“I think her gut instinct was an angel or a premonition from a guardian angel telling her not to go in to protect her,” said her mother, Jennifer.

“It’s hard to feel so happy that my daughter wasn’t there, and at the same time, feel heartbreak for the ones that were involved.”

Police are still investigating the crash that left one toll collector in the hospital.

Daley returned to work the next day and added that the warnings reinforced her faith.

“As of recently, I started getting a lot closer to God in the last like three months.

 I believe 100 percent that was God looking out for me,” she said.