puñña: what has more merit? Acts of kindness or meditation?

 

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what has more merit? Acts of kindness or meditation?

KN Iti 27 worldly merit, none are worth a sixteenth part of the heart’s release by friendly-kindness

AN ^9.20 successfully more meritorious activities, meditation trumps generosity

SN ^20.4 a moment of metta more meritorious than offering 100 meals

DN ^5.5 successfully more meritorious activities, with 4 jhānas and 6 higher knowleges at peak

sīla and dāna just as important as samādhi?

And some comments I made in this discussion,

where someone thinks sīla is not inferior to samādhi as described in suttas above

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=762125#p762125




You're missing the point. No one is saying sīla is unnecessary, just because it's inferior to paññā and samādhi.
It's about the ceiling.
Someone who only does sila but not samādhi has a low ceiling, can not break through to nirvana.
Someone with sīla and samādhi has arahntship as a ceiling.
Someone with no sīla, corrupted sīla, with excellent samādhi, can not have right samādhi and also would have a very low ceiling preventing awakening.



See SN 56.1.


Someone can have the best sila in the world, best demeanor in the world, even better than everyone with samādhi, but without samādhi, they can't break through to pañña and awakening.
At best they'll just be reborn in favorable realms again and again until they slip up, but always revolving in samsara, just having better karmic fruits than those without sila.
That's the 'ceiling' I refer to.
Someone with the best samādhi in the world, but doesn't direct it towards seeing the 4 noble truths, will also be stuck in samsara revolving.
Somone with the best samādhi but with poor sīla, will also fall and continue to revolve.

Akashad wrote:

For example,if I wanted a good rebirth or good circumstances wouldn't it be more beneficial for me to practice Dana and Sila than meditation.

...See my previous answer, but in a sense yes, if you're chasing good karmic rewards and want the slowest way to attain nirvana but in the most comfortable way then focusing time and effort more on sīla and dāna could have more tangible favorable impact.

For example, some monks who get 4 requisites very easily while other monks struggle to get any,
could be a result of the former doing better dāna and sīla in past lives.

But the goal should be to attain nirvana as soon as possible, and get out of suffering ASAP,
which is why the Buddha places even a finger snap's time of metta as more meritorious than dāna and sīla,
and why the jhānas and perceiving a moment of impermanence even more meritorious than that.

When's the last time you read a sutta that compared a "noble disciple" to an "un-noble disciple"?

2 – ariya-savaka: noble one’s disciple

ariya-savaka = noble one's disciple. One who hears/learns the teachings of a noble one, but is not necessarily a noble one themself.

I’ve only ever seen ariya-savaka contrasted against ordinary person uneducated (puthujjano), not against an-ariya-savaka (un-noble disciple).
Digital search for “Ariyasāvak” turns up over 200 results,
while searching for “unariyasāvak” returns 0.

MN ^22.10 uneducated ordinary person

Idha, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto,

Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in The Dharma of the good persons.

educated noble one’s disciple

Sutavā ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinīto,

But an educated noble-one's-disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in The Dharma of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in The Dharma of the good persons.

MN 117 Did you know an arahant is not a 'noble disciple'?

 

That's the kind of problem you get when you wrongly translate and interpret

✅'ariya savaka' (disciple of the noble ones) 

as ⛔'noble disciple' (one who is ariya status, stream enterer up to arahant).

without-asinine-inclinations (āsava)  means someone is an arahant.

Here is a Sujato based translation of MN 117  where I haven't made the correction yet:

https://lucid24.org/mn/main/mn117/index.html#117.5

So in the case of  an arahant, who is the noblest of noble disciples,

It's saying that an arahant is not an arahant where I highlighted, because he has asinine-inclinations.

Or, if you want to still insist ariya-savaka means a disciple who is noble,

this sutta would mean ariya-savaka can only be the 3 lower ariya and exclude arahants.

Sammāājīvampahaṃ, bhikkhave, dvāyaṃ vadāmi—	Right livelihood is twofold, I say.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko;	There is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.	And there is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko?	And what is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment?
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako micchāājīvaṃ pahāya sammāājīvena jīvikaṃ kappeti—	It’s when a noble disciple gives up wrong livelihood and earns a living by right livelihood.
ayaṃ, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko.	This is right livelihood that is accompanied by asinine-inclinations.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo?	And what is right livelihood that is noble, without-asinine-inclinations, transcendent, a factor of the path?
Yā kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato micchāājīvā ārati virati paṭivirati veramaṇī—	It’s the desisting, abstaining, abstinence, and refraining from wrong livelihood in one of noble mind without-asinine-inclinations, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.
ayaṃ, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.	This is right livelihood that is noble.

Alternatively, if you consider the wrong livelihood that's abandoned,

Kuhanā, lapanā, nemittikatā, nippesikatā, lābhena lābhaṃ nijigīsanatā—

Deception, flattery, hinting, and belittling, and using material possessions to pursue other material possessions.

non-returners have abandoned the āsavas that would lead to those types of wrong livelihood.

Their only remaining āsava has the tiniest trace of self identity and appreciation of efficacy of Dhamma teaching. 

So ariya-savaka would exclude Arahants, and non-returners,

and could only be stream enterers and once returners. 

Other suttas where ariya-savaka = "noble disciple" result in ridiculous situations

https://lucid24.org/tped/a/ariya/index.html#2

Conclusion

✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed).

Forum discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistTexts/comments/1clf0xt/comment/l2w56qy/?context=3

Grammar experts agree both interpretations [disciple of noble, or noble disciple] are possible, so I felt no need to investigate further.

Besides the Buddha-savaka and other words like that (where it obviously is not a disciple who also happens to be a Buddha), ariya-savaka deviates from that norm without any explanation.

Bodhi and Sujato, the two popular translators who wrongly interpret "noble disciple", have written they believe that sometimes the suttas can not mean "noble disciple", yet AFAIK they still translate it "noble disciple" everywhere, and expect people to figure out for themselves when that is the case.

To me, it's not just that readers sell themselves short, thinking lots of the suttas don't apply to them because the reader is not a stream enterer, but that even for someone striving to be an arahant, it's confusing to read many sutta passages and not know what ariya savaka means there.

An analogy would be, you see a sutta with meditation instructions, it just says requires "samādhi", and you have no idea if it means 4th jhāna is necessary, 1st jhāna is necessary, or something below first jhāna.

Thirdly, it just shows negligence and sloppiness on the translators not admitting their mistake, when Thanissaro noticed and addressed the problem long ago, translating it correctly in his suttas.

If someone caught my mistakes, I would admit right away as soon as I confirmed, and go back and fix the translation.

translating viharati: "enter and remain in jhāna" makes it seem like you rent an Air Bnb for one week out of the whole year

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1ck8tlv/enter_and_remain_in_the_first_jhana_jhana_question/




The way most translators render [the four jhāna formula with "he enters and remains in"]

 make it seem like jhāna is something you only do occasionally and with great effort and intention. 

But viharati ("dwells in") isn't just an Air BNB rental that you rent for one week out of the entire year.

Do you only do satipatthana one week out of the year?

Do you only do right effort one week out of the year?

They also are described with viharati "enters and remains in".

A better way to translate would consistently render right sati, right samādhi, right effort the same way.

"araddha viriyam viharati" = he lives arousing vigor (of 4 right efforts).

"kaye kāya anupassi viharati" = he lives continuously seeing the body as a body truly is.

"🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati" = he attains and lives in first jhāna

Sujato sometimes translates 'viharati' as 'lives', sometimes as 'meditate'

It's not wrong, and if you're the type of person that thinks you should be meditating (in any posture, activity) all the time, then no problem.

But I would bet most people don't think of 'meditate' that way.  

They think of it as something you only do once in a while, once a week maybe, or 20 minutes a day. 

Conclusion

Common sense dictates that when you acquire a wonderful skill, you apply it to your life, develop it and constantly strive to improve that skill as much as possible whenever possible.

"enter and remain in jhāna" makes it seem like you rent an Air Bnb for one week out of the whole year.

Why rent for a measly one week when you can own it and live in it all the time?

🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati" = he attains and lives in first jhāna

Forum discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/1cknpfr/comment/l2o2ei3/?context=3

Spirited_Ad8737

5h ago

I believe I remember seeing "abides in", as another possible alternative to your suggestion.

lucid24-frankk

OP

•

in 1m

I've seen it translated with 'abide', but I don't think the modern defn. fits:

oxford american dictionary has the 'live, dwell' meaning for 'abide' under archaic.

əˈbīd

a·bide

v.

1) [intrans.] abide by accept or act in accordance with (a rule, decision, or recommendation)

I said I would abide by their decision

2) [trans.] can/could not abide informal be unable to tolerate (someone or something)

if there is one thing I cannot abide it is a lack of discipline

3) [intrans.] (of a feeling or a memory) continue without fading or being lost

■ archaic live; dwell

'dwell' is a great translation for viharati, BUT...

In pali, vihāra is a dwelling. (noun)

viharati (verb) = dwell

But again, it runs into same problem as 'meditate', where you don't think of it as something you 24/7.

I dwelled in the dwelling when it rained.

I dwelled in my dwelling at night and then had breakfast and spent the next 16 hours outside of my dwelling.

But 'living' is something everyone knows you do 24/7

The short answer: the minimum amount of samādhi needed for the lowest level of nobility, stream entry

At the very minimum, a finger snap's moment of first jhāna is needed for stream entry (guaranteed nirvana in 7 lifetimes or less).
While there is no sutta that explicitly says it like that,
it's a necessary conclusion from both deduction and inference after reading all the suttas.
Otherwise, how could an eightfold path, the only path that leads to nirvana, mention 4 jhānas under right samādhi, 

but neglect to mention there is a special kind of inferior samādhi (below first jhāna) that leads to nirvana?

A new translation of SN 47.10: how to first and second jhāna in plain simple English

 

A bare bones literal translation of this sutta is terse and somewhat cryptic if you don't have basic things memorized and understood prior, like the 4 jhāna formula.

What I translate and include in [] square brackets are bits of information from related suttas that help you connect the dots, resulting in usable instructions to get into first and second jhāna.

47.10 - SN 47.10 Bhikkhun’-upassaya: The Nuns’ Quarters

(2024 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ )
    SN ^47.10 - SN 47.10 Bhikkhunupassaya: The Nuns’ Quarters
        SN ^47.10.1 - (nuns tell Ānanda about progress in 4sp🐘 practice)
        SN ^47.10.2 - (Ananda goes to see Buddha and tells him what happened, as above)
        SN ^47.10.4 - (Buddha approves)
        SN ^47.10.5 - (While in 4sp🐘 , how to ward off 5niv⛅ hindrances)
        SN ^47.10.7 - (7sb☀️ bodhi-anga derived sequence)
        SN ^47.10.8 - (no more need for V&V💭 , passed from first to second jhāna)
        SN ^47.10.10 - (remaining 3 of 4sp🐘 done just like above)
        SN ^47.10.15 - (Undirected, ap-panidhāya, development)
        SN ^47.10.20 - (conclusion: jhāyatha! You must practice jhāna!)

The essential part:

47.10.7 - (7sb☀️ bodhi-anga derived sequence)

Tenānanda, bhikkhunā kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahitabbaṃ.	That monk should direct their mind towards an inspiring sign.
Tassa kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahato pāmojjaṃ jāyati.	As they attend to that sign, [an inspiring recollection relevant to skillful Dharmas], they rejoice.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.	Rejoicing [in skillful Dharmas], mental-joy [of first and second jhāna] springs up.
Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.	When the mind is full of mental-joy, the body becomes pacified.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedayati.	When the body is pacified, one feels [physical] pleasure.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.	And when pleasure [pervades the body], the mind becomes undistractible-&-lucid in samādhi.

47.10.8 - (no more need for V&V💭 , passed from first to second jhāna)

So iti paṭisañcikkhati:	Then they [equanimously] observe:
‘yassa khvāhaṃ atthāya cittaṃ paṇidahiṃ, so me attho abhinipphanno.	‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind.
Handa dāni paṭisaṃharāmī’ti.	Let me now pull back.’
So paṭisaṃharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti.	They pull back from [first jhāna, which involves] directing and evaluating thoughts [based on skillful Dharmas].
‘Avitakkomhi avicāro,	They lucidly-discern: ‘I’m neither directing-thoughts nor evaluating them,
ajjhattaṃ	internally [I have purity and confidence in Dharma and myself].
satimā	I’m simply remembering and applying Dharma [without using mental words].
sukhamasmī’ti pajānāti.	I abide in the pleasure [of second jhāna or something higher] .’

47.10.10 - (remaining 3 of 4sp🐘 done just like above)

Puna caparaṃ, ānanda, bhikkhu vedanāsu … pe …	Furthermore, a monk lives seeing sensations as sensations truly are …
citte … pe …	a monk lives seeing the mind as the mind truly is…
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.	A monk lives seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is —ardent, lucidly-discerning, and remembering and applying Dharma, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Tassa dhammesu dhammānupassino viharato dhammārammaṇo vā uppajjati kāyasmiṃ pariḷāho, cetaso vā līnattaṃ, bahiddhā vā cittaṃ vikkhipati.	As they live seeing Dharma as ☸Dharma truly is, based on [this fourth frame of remembering and applying] Dharma, there arises physical tension, or mental sluggishness, or the mind is externally scattered.

(for examples of inspiring nimittas (signs), MN ²⁰, AN ^6.10)

Compare with Sujato's incoherent translation and interpretation of the same sutta:

SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaṭṭhāna, and seven awakening factors

🔗📝Goldcraft volume 2 notes

 

Queue of articles that haven't made it into the book yet

SN 47.10 B. Sujato's incoherent meditation instructions using vitakka, satipaṭṭhāna, and seven awakening factors