EBT mantras? I found my “Buddho”, on singular hill

 

from on old forum post of mine in April 2018

I found my “Buddho”, on singular hill

I use to think Ajahn Mun and his disciples teaching “Buddho” mantra was a very questionable practice, not in accordance with EBT. It also bore some disturbing similarities to Pure Land Buddhism, if one becomes attached to a mantra without understanding what it’s used for and why. In the EBT at least, it turns out Ajahn Mun is justified. You can use a “Buddho” mantra as an entry into samadhi, following the 7sb formula, if you do it this way.

AN 6.10 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha…) leads to samadhi and Dhamma stream entry

AN 6, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 1. āhuneyyavaggo, 10. mahānāmasuttaṃ (AN 6.10), para. 2 ⇒
“yo so, mahānāma, ariyasāvako āgataphalo viññātasāsano, so iminā vihārena bahulaṃ viharati. idha, mahānāma, ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati — ‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṃ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā’ti. yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha. ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ. pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. ayaṃ vuccati, mahānāma — ‘ariyasāvako visamagatāya pajāya samappatto viharati, sabyāpajjāya pajāya abyāpajjo viharati, dhammasotaṃ samāpanno buddhānussatiṃ bhāveti”’.	“Mahānāma, when a noble disciple has reached the fruit and understood the instructions they frequently practice this kind of meditation. Firstly, a noble disciple recollects the Realized One: ‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’ When a noble disciple recollects the Realized One their mind is not full of greed, hate, and delusion. At that time their mind is unswerving, based on the Realized One. A noble disciple whose mind is unswerving finds joy in the meaning and the teaching, and finds joy connected with the teaching. When they’re joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, they feel bliss. And when they’re blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. This is called a noble disciple who lives in balance among people who are unbalanced, and lives untroubled among people who are troubled. They’ve entered the stream of the teaching and develop the recollection of the Buddha.

Also baked in as "saddha" in 5ind and 5bal formulas

SN 48.9 paṭhama-vibhaṅga-suttaṃ

SN 48.9 paṭhama-vibhaṅga-suttaṃ	SN 48.9 first-analysis-discourse
“pañc'-imāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni.	"(There are) five-(of)-these, *********, faculties.
katamāni pañca?	Which five?
saddh'-indriyaṃ,	conviction-faculty,
vīriy'-indriyaṃ,	vigor-faculty,
sat'-indriyaṃ,	Rememberness-faculty,
samādh'-indriyaṃ,	Undistractable-lucidity-faculty,
paññ'-indriyaṃ	discernment-faculty,

(1. Saddha: Conviction)

katamañ-ca, bhikkhave, saddh-indriyaṃ?	{And}-what, monks, (is the) conviction-faculty?
idha, bhikkhave, ariya-sāvako	Here, monks, (a) disciple-of-the-noble-ones
saddho hoti,	{has} conviction,
saddahati tathāgatassa bodhiṃ —	convinced (of) the-Tathāgatha's awakening -
‘iti-pi so bhagavā	'Thus-indeed, he, the-Blessed-one,
arahaṃ sammā-sambuddho	(an) Arahant, properly-awakened,
vijjā-caraṇa-sampanno	knowledge-(and)-conduct-(he)-possesses,
su-gato loka-vidū	well-gone, world-knower,
an-uttaro purisa-damma-sārathi	un-surpassed man-training-leader,
satthā deva-manussānaṃ	teacher (of) devas-(and)-humans,
buddho bhagavā’ti —	(the) awakened-one, the-blessed-one -
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, saddh-indriyaṃ.	this (is) called, *********, conviction-faculty.

Great new move to help with jhana constipation and back pain, and some yogi hacks to reduce time doing chores

 

Great new move to help with jhana constipation and people with lower back, middle back pain.

I do this move in the morning as part of my 15-20 min. sleeping bag yoga routine (done lying down inside a sleeping back). But I also will do it many times throughout the day in between sitting meditation session. For example, rather than doing a straight 3 hour sit, usually I'll break it up it up into 45 min or 60 min portions with 5-10 of stretching and mobility exercises in between. What this new move replaces, is just vanilla updog and cobra, or updog and cobra with some twisting. Finally the light bulb went off recently and I decided to explore, how much movement can I add into these limited static poses?

New variation: 🏃👨‍🍳🦎🐍 shake and bake lizard snake, perfect for sleeping bag yoga

New ideas added to 'yogi hacks' section of website to help you save time doing necessary chores

Another great yogi hack: Two minute shower, very little soap (or no soap).

Living in cold weather, better than hawaii, if you learn to use the right clothes

healthiest and fastest oatmeal recipes

dental floss loop hack - salvages low quality wax dental floss, decreases material waste of floss

pressure cooker, dry pasta in 10 min, no need to use 6 quarts of water, fresh pasta in 5 min.

Another great yogi hack: Two minute shower, very little soap (or no soap).

 

Two minute shower, very little soap.

My current showering routine:

1.  I get the shower warmed up to a comfortable temperature, not too hot, which dries out the skins also vaporizes impurities in the water which you then breathe in.

2. I just run my hands over every part of the body, rinse everything off, and if I've been out in nature, go a little more slowly and just feel and make sure there are no ticks or any bites. 

3. I use a little soap on just armpits, groin area. Soap dries out skin, removes the good bacteria and natural body oils that are part of a healthy biome ecosystem. 

4. I dry off with a towel the usual way, wiping. I just read an article that suggested patting down the towel to absorb water instead of wiping, so you don't swipe away the good body oils off your body. 

One to two minutes total.

So total operation, maybe about 5-6 minutes, since I wear many layers of clothing, taking them on and off takes most the time.

Doing some more research on not using soap at all for showering, that inspired me to give that a try. That will simplify things even more.

Most days, I don't do anything that would make me sweat heavy, just a light mist. So in a typical week, I'll just shower once or twice. I live in a place that is cold half of the day. If I'm living in a hot tropical area and I sweat a lot, then maybe I'd take a shower every day as described above, just rinsing off with water for a minute.

The important things to take away from this:

1. Most people way over shower, showering every day, lathering up with lots of soap. It dries out their skin, gives them skin rashes, skin diseases, itching. Then they buy moisturers, creams, go see the skin doctor to get prescriptions, etc. People like that owe it to themselves to give this system a try.

2. Most of it is probably motivated by fear of body odor. Rinsing with water gets rid of 80% of the body odor. The 20% BO you don't get rid of, soap doesn't get rid of it either. It just covers it up with some perfume, and you get the illusion of being "clean".  

3. I only use soap on my hands, for good hygiene preventing food poisoning and infectious diseases, or if my body gets dirty in a way like being covered in mud and slime that would justify soap. 

4. If I am concerned about body odor for social situations, rather than feeling compelled to shower,  I sometimes just change into clean set of inner clothes (underwear, shirt). Outer layers of clothes aren't going to sustain much B. O. Remember how bad odors work, it requires moisture to carry the scent. So if you're not sweating, you're wearing clean clothes, you probably aren't going to send out more body odor any differently than if you had showered. 

Also, as many people have attested, you're going to have less B.O. when your body's good bacteria microbiome, oils, reaches its own equilibrium instead of having to constantly combat people overshowering with lots of soap.

Article links below contain a lot of testimonial from people who have done this much longer than me, and have cured some of their skin diseases.

The Jacking Hong article (4 min. read) is really good, at least read that one.

https://www.thestar.com/life/2017/03/13/soap-free-for-seven-years.html

Jackie Hong hasn't lathered up in the shower since high school when she discovered soap wasn't a neccessity.

Life

Soap free for seven years

Jackie Hong

By Jackie HongStaff Reporter

Mon., March 13, 2017 (timer 4 min. read)

...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/05/i-dont-smell-meet-the-people-who-have-stopped-washing

‘I don’t smell!’ Meet the people who have stopped washing

A growing number of people are eschewing soap and trusting bacteria to do the job instead – and an entire industry has sprung up to accommodate them

...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/152bj3/a_report_on_what_happens_when_you_dont_use_soap/

Posted by u/gegaron

8 years ago

A report on what happens when you don't use soap for 6 months: awesomeness

A household of two adult men and two young girls (4 and 6) switches to daily showering using no soap. Water baths only. The experiment was done to explore the necessity of covering our bodies with complex detergents, moisturizers, fragrances, etc. Quick summary: amazingly, you need virtually no soap. Deodorant and rare hair conditioner remain useful.

...

https://www.bustle.com/articles/114177-6-reasons-you-should-stop-showering-every-day-according-to-science

We Asked Experts For 6 Very Good Reasons Not To Shower Every Day

Living in cold weather, better than hawaii, if you learn to use the right clothes

 I wish someone taught me this when I was young, I could have saved lots of money, and not suffered from being cold most of the time.

If you learn how to dress in layers with the right materials, even if it's freezing temperature outside, with icy wind chill, but the sun is out, you'll be as warm as if you were on the beach in hawaii.

I eat a lacto ovo vegetarian diet, more veganish most of the time, so I wear more layers than most people would.

Upper body:

1. cotton t-shirt

2. cotton dress shirt (cotton is most breathable material)

3. if really cold, another long sleeve cotton t shirt

4. important part here: wool stretchy sweater snug fitting body. that keeps the heat in. if you have baggy layers, cold air gets inside and you start losing body heat.

5. jacket #1, usually a cotton polyester blend hoodie

6. jacket #2, a thicker jacket, some kind of blend.

If I use a down jacket, then it's quite warm and I have to get rid of most of the layers.

make sure to use a scarf or a neck gaiter if it's cold.

head:

1. thin merino wool beanie for normal cold

2. wind breaking beanie if needed, can layer with wool beanie.

hands:

1. wool gloves for moderate cold

2. superinsulated gloves if real cold

bottom half of body in layers too.

1. cotton sweats

2. wool thermal long sweats, snug fitting

3. normal pants if I'm going outside and encounter people, otherwise I wrap a wool shawl around the legs like monks robes.

If it's really cold outside, I can throw a fleece pair of sweats on top of that.

for feet,

1. cotton socks

2. wool socks on top of that

If that's not enough, then another layer of cotton socks or wool socks. 

Secret weapon is enough cardio

Because if you don't cardio, parts of your body that are weak and cold, will still be weak and cold while your outside where you're dressed warm gets too hot. So cardio will crack all the icy frozen parts of your insides and distribute all the warmth evenly.

Now the real secret weapon is sufficient daily cardiovascular aerobic exercise (many sessions as needed throughout the day), such as my preferred shake and bake 🏃👨‍🍳🥧 (<- link). when I wake up, I do about 20 minutes of it, and then another 30-40 min. of alternating a few minutes of S&B with stretches. Every 2 or 3 hours I do 10 min. of s+b to homogenize the warmth again. I've gotten more resistant to cold the more s+b I do throughout the day. 

Natural materials close to skin, synthetics only on outer layers and wind breakers

Windbreaking layers is important if there's wind. Wind and cold air will cut right through wool and cotton, it feels like you might as well be standing naked.

Nylon shell jacket that you use just for windy days is good, down jackets usually have thin outer nylon layer  

For down jackets, try to buy a reputable brand. I got an Eddy Bauer (they have life time warranty on their product) jacket on sale this year from costco for 40$, 650 down fill, performs like a 150$ jacket. Although my jacket is a lemon in the sense that it smells bad, like farm animals who need to bathe. But if it bothers me enough, I can go to an eddy bauer store and get an exchange for same or similar product without smell.  

Costco will often have overstocked and discounted quality brand clothes, so just keep your eye on it from time to time. 

Summary of important points

1. shake and bake 🏃👨‍🍳🥧 (<- link) or equivalent level of cardio

2. layers close to skin use natural materials. Synthetics like polyester make you feel hot dry, skin suffocating and getting itchy. But they are ok on an outer layer, especially nylon jacket shells and nylon blend pants that have wind breaking power. 

I actually moved to Hawaii and lived there for a few years because I couldn't take the cold weather in the continental USA (veganish diet big contributor). If I had known about down jackets, wool layers, I could have saved lots of money from not moving to Hawaii.

With my knowledge of how to dress warmly and comfortably, even if I'm in the himalayan mountains (lower altitudes) in the winter, it feels as warm as hawaii. Even better, because there are no mosquitoes, and no extra high cost of living expenses from living in a desirable place.

MN 10, DN 22: video (7min) of how a skilled lathe worker works with the wood

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/l51tto/how_was_ancient_woodturning_done_useful_for/

How was ancient wood-turning done? Useful for understanding the simile of the wood-turner in the Maha-satipatthana sutta.

In the section on anapana (breathing meditation) in the maha-satipatthana sutta, there is this simile (to represent the way in which one knows the inhale and the exhale in breathing meditation)

Just as a clever wood turner, or a wood turner’s apprentice, when he makes a long pull [on the lathe], he knows clearly ‘I make a long pull.’

It's hard to understand this properly without knowing how wood-turning worked in India at that time. And I think it is worth trying to understand well, because the Buddha does not give a simile for no reason. After a little research, I found that woodturning at that time was done in much the same way as it still is, in North Africa and parts of India and Asia, using a hand-powered bow-lathe. Here is a video of one wood-turner in Morocco plying his trade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA

The key word that is used in the simile is añchati- (stretch, pull, drag to turn along a lathe) it's this that is said to be "long" or "short". It's clear enough from watching the woodturner in the video work that this refers to the back and forth movement he makes continually with his arm.

He can adjust the length of his movement as he wishes. To me seeing this also helps to make clear the meaning of the simile. (A "skilled woodturner" - as opposed to an unskilled one - knows the purpose of every movement he makes, and he is well practiced so that he will not adjust the length of his pull impulsively for no reason, without being conscious of doing so. As one says about anyone who is skilled in their trade, he "knows what he is doing." My understanding, is that it is in this way that one should clearly and skilfully "know what one is doing" when breathing in and out.)

Postscript: On a similar subject, I wonder if anyone would have some insight into the other simile in the same sutta, regarding mindfulness with reference to the four elements. It is said to be like a "skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice, who, having killed a cow, sits down at a crossroads dividing it into portions or heaps."

So far the best analysis I can make is that when butchering any animal for meat, one always has to divide the meat into different categories: bones, tough meat for stew, tender meat for steak, and what is left that can only be given to animals. Dividing the entire cow and all that is within it into basic different categories which depend only on the physical nature of the material, is similar to dividing this human body and everything in it into the four elements of which it is made.

But I'm not quite satisfied with this, in particular I don't see why the reference to a "crossroads" - it doesn't seem key to the point that is being made, but I wonder all the same what it is about - does it perhaps refer to some ancient Indian custom or tradition of which I am unaware?

lucid24-frankk

just now

As I recall, in Ven. Sona's 'nimitta' article where he discusses this wood worker simile,

he uses that to show that parimukha for 16aps breath meditation must mean close attention to the nostril area, staying anchored there the way a woodworker must.

He may be right, but two important things to note:

1. Some agama parallels do not have that woodworker simile for breath at all in their satipatthana suttas

2. parimukha with sitting down meditation instructions occurs for many other meditations besides just breath meditation, that have nothing to do with nostril and mouth area, so we have to conclude that parimukha is meant in a figurative sense of making the task in "front" of you the top priority. Just as 'focusing on the task on hand' doesn't mean the literal hand for most cases.

B. Sujato essay, The Counterfeit of the True Teaching, about Matty Weingast Therigatha translation book scandal

B. Sujato writes in the essay:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/the-counterfeit-of-the-true-teaching/18622

excerpt:

The revelation of how Matty Weingast’s original poetry has been published and marketed by Shambhala as a translation of the Therigatha 17 begs the question: well, what’s the problem? Is this actually an issue? After all, lots of people publish lots of things all the time and no-one really cares.

Let’s hear what the Buddha had to say on the matter.

In SN 16.13, Mahākassapa asks why there are now more training rules but fewer enlightened beings. 

...

Also worth reading (regarding same book scandal)

https://lokanta.github.io/2021/01/21/curious-case/

kāma crime💘🦹‍ : justice 30 yrs later, nun murdered who witnessed priest and nun sex

 

2021 justice 30 yrs later, nun murdered who witnessed priest and nun sex

She was murdered for catching an Indian priest and nun in a sex act. Three decades later, justice is served

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/23/asia/sister-abhaya-murder-intl-dst-hnk/index.html 

excerpt (ending):

"I just wish my parents could have been here to see it happen," (see justice) said Thomas, Sister Abhaya's brother. "That's all they ever wanted." Thomas said he "can rest in peace" and move on with his life, now that the case is finally over. However, he said he still struggles to reconcile his sister's love for the church with the horror of what happened that night -- and the fact that those who purported to share her faith were the ones who "took her away."

notes of interest (frankk comments)

Especially inspiring is the activist hero Jomon Puthenpurackal who took up the case and stuck with it for decades when Church tried to cover up corruption, and the key witness thief with integrity who refused the exorbitant bribes and stuck to the truth of his testimony. What's even more horrific than the chief perpetrators (priest, nun, murderer), is the kind of support it took from the whole Church organization to bribe the police, lie to the world, destroy evidence, etc. Many people in the church or police were witnesses and willing accessories to the crime.  

meditation question: force and heat rumbling in the belly area. What to do about it?

 

Dealing with chi belly

Hi all. During the TMI sitting and walking meditation or contrast showers, my belly lives it’s own life – expanding as I am pregnant, compressing and pulsing, etc. It happens only during meditation and does not feel like physical bloating, gases, or visceral fat. Mantak Chia and few other schools teach it

Any tips on how to pass this stage? So far I have tried doing more horse stance, focusing on the soles or do the entire body breathing, circular rubbing and imagining chi ball in lower dantien shrinking, however, it is still massive but fades slowly after a few hours

P.S. Meditation sessions range from level 3 to 7 with plenty of twitches, purification, and occasional jhana glimpses

lucid24-frankk

just now

You don't have to do anything special about it, it's natural for that to happen. Whenever you're deeply relaxed and the mind is calm, very little thoughts, forces and heat will accumulate in the body and try to pervade everywhere, every cell. All the energy moves in interconnected loops, and as long as there are blockages and suboptimal pathways you'll feel pressure build up in different ways and different areas of the body. It's common and normal phenomena. It's the same force and heat that drives the hydraulic feeling of the first two jhanas. The thing most people don't understand though, is that the force and heat building up is a valuable commodity. People who don't feel it most of the time is because they live a lifestyle where they dissipate more energy than they charge up (too much sex, partying, talking, thinking, intense emotions).

From Buddhadust.net, a new freshly proof read digital single file html PTS Pali English Dictionary

 In a private email to me, the volunteer who did this proof reading job wrote:

A good dictionary and a pristine Pali is what should have been done by
all of us a long time ago! It's like: Now we can begin.

Took me six months almost to the day working from about 3:00 AM to about
4:00 PM every day. (with breaks, of course).

Sadhu, sadhu. Many thanks for this meritorious contribution!

Using a rough estimate of 8 hrs a day proofreading for 6 months, that about 1500 hours of labor!

Reprinting his announcement from his blog:

Oblog: [O.1.12.21] Tuesday, January 12, 2021 4:50 AM

Digital Pali Text Society's Pali English Dictionary upgrade update.

The .html version is now available.

The Upgrade version of the .htm edition of the PTS PED:
ped.htm almost 6MB!
ped.zip 2.2MB

The Upgrade version of the .txt edition of the PTS PED:
ped.utf8.txt 5.5MB!
ped.utf8.zip 2.2MB
Zipped text file in unicode utf-8 with PC line endings.

This work is based on a scanned version of an early reprint of an early edition of The Pali Text Society's Pali English Dictionary revised in accordance with the 2015 "Reprint with corrections" by K.R. Norman, William Pruitt and Peter Jackson.

Further details on this edition are to be found at the beginning of the file.

It is not being claimed that this edition is error-free or all-encompassing. What it is at this time is the most error-free and encompassing of the on-line Pali Dictionaries.

Although it is available for viewing and use on this site, due to the size of the file, on-line use is not very practical. It is intended for downloading to your desktop and use from there.

1. Download the .zip file (.txt or .htm according to your preference) and expand.
2. Create a desktop shortcut to the file.
3. Copy and save the PED icon above.
4. Change the icon for the shortcut to the PED icon.

Any volunteers want to convert sutta references from PTS book and page sutta numbering to modern numbering (such as suttacentral.net uses)?

I've always wanted an edition of the PED that had modern sutta numbers. 

Example: Instead of A II 163; IV 238,

Convert to AN 2.163 (or whatever the actual number is); AN 4.238.

I have a script that would then convert AN 2.163 to AN 2.163  (A hyperlink that jumps directly to the sutta on lucid24.org).

I have this page with mappings between modern numbering and PTS page #:

pts page links to modern pali suttas  

Obviously without paying someone I don't think this would ever happen for the entire dictionary, but if people who use the dictionary often, would take ownership of a few words you care about, and fix the references for that and post it on my forum, gradually we can get there.

Explanation from B. Thanissaro regarding Ajahn Mun biography section where he has conversations with (living) Buddhas

Ajahn Mun Bio, account of conversation with Buddhas

excerpt from p.172 Venerable Ãcariya Mun Bhýridatta Thera: A Spiritual Biography by Ãcariya Mahã Boowa Ñãõasampanno.  http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Acariya_Mun__A_Spiritual_Biography.pdf

On the nights subsequent to Ãcariya Mun’s attainment of vimutti, a
number of Buddhas, accompanied by their Arahant disciples, came to
congratulate him on his vimuttidhamma. One night, a certain Buddha,
accompanied by tens of thousands of Arahant disciples, came to visit;
the next night, he was visited by another Buddha who was accompanied
by hundreds of thousands of Arahant disciples. Each night a different
Buddha came to express his appreciation, accompanied by a different
number of Arahant disciples. Ãcariya Mun stated that the number of
accompanying Arahant disciples varied according to each Buddha’s
relative accumulation of merit – a factor that differed from one Buddha
to the next.

Many critics cite that passage to show that Ajahn Mun could not be an enlightened Theravadin monk.

For how could an Arahant converse with still living Buddhas who had pari-nirvana'd already? 

Ven. Thanissaro, of Wat Metta  comments on the Buddha Conversation incident

I asked Ven. Thanissaro, of Wat Metta, ordained in Ajahn Mun Dhammayut Thai Forest tradition, he explained:

As for the Ajaan Mun visions, you have to remember his general attitude toward beings encountered in visions:  the important part of the vision is not who delivers the message, but what the message is —

 

whether it’s in line with the Dhamma, and what results it gives when you put it into practice.

 

We don’t know whether Ajaan Mun actually thought he was conversing with arahants. All we have are third-hand reports. In the case of the on-line discussions, they are based on a further remove, translated into English, a language that is less ambiguous than Thai.

 

When one says in Thai that one saw so-and-so in a vision, it doesn’t mean that one necessarily believes that so-and-so actually came for a visit, simply that that was how the vision appeared.

 

There are many ways of explaining how such a vision could occur — arahants in the Pure Abodes are clearly one possibility, devas who had known arahants in the past are another. I don’t find on-line discussions particularly fruitful.

Hāsapañño Bhikkhu comments on the Buddha Conversation incident

Hāsapañño Bhikkhu, owner of website : https://sites.google.com/site/wideanglewilderness about the same , here's what he says about it :

"
I’m sure you are aware that they fall almost completely within ‘Buddha-visaya’ and 'Jhāna-visaya’ (things that fall within the range of experience and possibilities for Awakened Ones, and within the range of experience and possibilities for people in jhāna) — i.e. 2 of the 4 things that cannot be encompassed or understood at the level of thought (from the Acinteyya Sutta [A.4.77]). It seems to be universally held among the Thai kammatthana tradition (and also among other Buddhist traditions) that arahants and Buddhas of the past will come and help people who are truly practising for real.

This is usually just referred to ‘matter-of-factly’, without any attempt at interpretation or explanation - like in Ajahn Mun’s biography. The only detailed explanation of these phenomena that I have heard also comes from a great Ajahn who was once asked that if these things happen, whether arahants or Buddhas somehow still ‘exist’. He replied that these phenomena of post-parinibbāna arahants or Buddhas was something like relics… In the same way that physical relics of the Buddha, etc., can still exist, enlightened beings can use their samādhi to leave behind mental relics (relics of nāma-dhammas rather than rūpa-dhammas) that meditators of succeeding generations can tune into or come into contact with, even after the arahants have passed into parinibbāna. And since they are nāma-dhammas, they are interactive in a strange way that physical relics obviously are not. So it is not the case at all that the Buddhas or the arahants are 'coming out of Nibbāna’ to visit people, even though it seems like the knee-jerk assumption that a lot of people jump to…

Ajahn Mun no doubt had these experiences in his meditation — as have many, many other monks and nuns and laypeople as well — and it is best to keep an open mind about it without trying to assume you understand what is going on, and without jumping to conclusions or interpreting or explaining what you don’t understand.

None of this contradicts the Brahmajala Sutta. The Buddha did state, however, that “He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma.” [S.22.87] There is certainly more than one way to interpret that, and more than one interpretation could be correct...
Anyway, I wouldn’t let it stand in the way of following the teachings of these Ajahns. Taking an intellectual position against them because of it would be a strange hill to die on for someone interested in Dhamma.

Very best wishes,
Hāsapañño Bhikkhu "

Ajahn Chob was meditating nearby when Ajahn Mun attained arahantship

Found this text here describing Ajahn Mun's meeting with the devas after Arahantship.

audio recording of same text here:

https://archive.org/details/ajahn-chob-witnesses-ajahn-mun-become-arahant

Ācariya Mun Bhūridatto attains to the Dhamma-element

Luang Pu Chob

– translated by Thiracitto Bhikkhu

When Venerable Luang Por Chob Ṭhānasamo and Venerable Luang Por Mun Bhūridatto were staying in the Chiang Mai area practising meditation together at the Dok-Kham cave near Sahagorn Village, Nam-Phrae Township, Phrao District, an event of utmost significance occured. Although Luang Por Chob was not directly involved in the event, he bore witness to the crucial moment when Luang Por Mun finally realized the Dhamma-element, that is, the moment when Luang Por Mun realized the path and fruit of the Buddha's teachings and ultimately became one of the Arahants of our time.

It all happened on a day in May 1935, around 3 a.m. As Luang Por Chob was sitting in deep meditation, his mind still and sublime, shining brightly immersed in samādhi, all of a sudden, the brightness and stillness of his heart was blown away in an instant. That very moment, he heard a tremendously loud resounding thunderclap, so massive that everything started to tremble and shake. Later on, Luang Por Chob would describe this bang as being as if a nuclear explosion had gone off right next to him. The force was so powerful that everything started to shake as if the whole world was breaking apart and dissolving into the tiniest particles. The whole scene, however, was unfolding solely within his own mind; the outside world remained the same.

Never since he had begun practising, had Luang Por Chob experienced a meditational phenomenon like this. Inwardly examining his mind, he tried to figure out what was responsible for this mindstate. But in the end, he couldn't discover anything unusual. Therefore, he directed his investigation outwards to inquire as to the reason for such a phenomenon to have occured. As soon as he sent his mind outward, it shot straight towards the nearby dwelling place of Luang Por Mun. There he witnessed (with his mind’s eye) multifarious male and female devas crowding around Luang Por Mun. There were more heavenly beings than he had ever seen before. Hordes of devas from every single heavenly plane gathered to such an extent that the whole of space - from heaven to earth -  seemed to be completely saturated. Devas from more than a billion galaxies clustered around Luang Por Mun. The brilliance of their luminosity shone so brightly that the entire surroundings of the Dok-Kham cave were flooded with light, fully illuminated by the powerful radiance of virtue. And yet, the luminosity of all the deva gods combined was nothing compared to the mesmerizing brilliance and majestic beauty of Luang Por Mun's own heart; the blazing radiance of his Dhamma perfection exceeded all else. Luang Por Chob would later report that Luang Por Mun's grandeur and beauty was so much brighter and more majestic than could possibly be described in words.

After admiring Luang Por Mun's dazzling brilliance for a sufficient period of time, Luang Por Chob pulled back his mind and thought to himself: "This is certainly due to an important occurrence in the Great Ajahns practice today. I'm quite sure about it!”

The very next day, around 4 p.m., Luang Por Chob went to Luang Por Mun's dwelling place to prepare the wash water for his daily bath. Just as Luang Por Chob was handing his teacher a fresh bathing cloth, Luang Por Mun asked him: “Tan Chob, how is your practise lately?” Luang Por Chob replied respectfully: “My practise is as usual, Venerable Ajahn. But yesterday something happened in my meditation that almost literally blew my mind away. There was an explosion, a bang as loud as if a huge bomb had detonated right next to me. I've never experienced anything like it in my meditation.” Luang Por Mun then asked: “How do you assess the matter?” Luang Por Chob replied: “I started looking for causes in my heart, but couldn't find anything unusual. But when I directed my mind outwards, immediately I saw an incredibly wonderful light emanating from you, more radiant than I have ever seen before.  And on top of that, I have never seen such multitudes of devas gather around you, Luang Por. But still, I don't know why so many devas would have visited you on such a scale.”

Luang Pu MunLuang Por Mun answered: “The multitude of devas you saw yesterday gathered in such enormous numbers to express their Anumodanā - their emphatic joy and appreciation - to me. They congratulated me for realizing the Dhamma-element - the complete liberation from suffering and the end of the samsaric transmigration. From now on, there is no further birth for me. Everything is cut off completely. To the extent that an Arahant is without delusion, that's exactly how I am now without delusion. The explosion you heard was caused by the devas' saluting proclamation of appreciation and recognition. The Anumodanā-blast created by their psychic power, in all likelihood, impacted your mind so violently, that it was properly shaken and catapulted you out of samādhi."

Luang Por Chob later tells us: “At that moment, all of my hair stood on end. I would never have dreamt to ever hear such a statement from Luang Por Mun personally, nor – up to that day – had I ever heard of this term ‘Dhamma-element’ in my entire life. But it kindled such a mental delight (pīti) that all mindfulness and self-control escaped me and tears began streaming down my face. In that moment, I could not find words appropriate enough to do justice to that highest level of Dhammic realization which my revered and beloved Master - who was like mother and father to me - had attained. So I fell on my knees in front of him and bowed low to his feet. Kneeling with my chest bent down, staring at his feet, I started crying profusely without any inhibition. I was so stunned and overwhelmed by the fact that he had penetrated to the Dhamma-element and had become a fully-awakened Arahant. Never had I cried so much in my life. I don't know how to describe the feelings in my heart that day. It is too deep a spiritual experience and defies any description.

“Up until that day, Luang Por Mun was generally very strict and would reprimand me if I lost my composure. But however harsh he scolded me, I always took it to heart (that's why I had expected a harsh admonishment on that day). But now he said nothing. He just let me cry, let me express my feelings freely. When I calmed down after a while, Luang Por Mun said to me: "Well, look at that one, Tan Chob!  See how far the mind can go!  Things can be so profound that your mind is so overwhelmed by spiritual joy that it even makes you sob! Isn't that right Tan Chob?" I replied to him: “I am speechless at the idea that you, Luang Por, have finished your work in the Buddha's teachings. That you have overcome all suffering and that now I am left behind and still have to keep practicing. I wish to understand the Dhamma - to see the Dhamma - in this very life, just like you Luang Por!"

Luang Por Mun responded, “If you want to achieve path, fruit and Nibbāna in this life, under no circumstances slacken your efforts. It takes unremitting dedication for the practise. No slacking up, no matter what. Practise as I have taught you so far. If you practise exactly as I have instructed, you will realize to your complete satisfaction path, fruit and Nibbāna in this very life. That, I guarantee you.”

Devas communicate to meditators through meditative visions and dreams, this one helped me with a back ache problem

 

I've never seen what my Deva friends look like, but from time to time I will get very brief terse message that sound like a voice in my head, or a thought in my head that I know didn't come from me. 

But most of the time, the communication comes in my dreams, in a form of a riddle (similar to MN 23) or a vague hint. Over the years I've had too many to keep count of, and I didn't write any of them down.  Some I figure out quickly, some take weeks and months, and others I never reach a solution, or write off as possibly a random dream. 

Much like the Vammika sutta (MN 23), my deva friends probably are spiritual companions from previous lives and avid meditators. In the beginning when I thought, "I wish you guys would just be explicit and clear in your messages instead of giving me vague hints and riddles to solve." But after awhile I realized what they're doing is brilliant, and really the best way to teach. It also gives them plausible deniability in case their advice goes bad, because I had to be the one to figure it out with some uncertainty, and make the conscious choice whether to follow through taking the advice. 

The lesson applies to teaching humans too. The best way is to give them tools to think critically and give them hints on how to solve the problem on their own. Even if you hand them a solution in great detail on a silver platter, most of them won't pay attention to the details carefully and then soon forget. But if help them to think on their own, then they develop a habit of self reliance and an attitude of Dhamma-vicaya intelligent wise investigation into what is Dharma and not Dharma, what is kusala and not kusala, etc. 

Back to my back ache problem 

A few months ago I had this vision in a dream. Two Buddhist nuns were doing some kind of qigong, making circular motions in front of their torso, similar to qigong exercises that massage the qi around your chest or whole upper torso. I do still have some blockage and lack of optimal qi flow there, so during my regular taiji and qigong sessions I incorporated more of that motion. But it was a qigong drill I already knew how to do and have done, so I was mystified why that vision was given. I did notice the two nuns where doing it more near the anatomical heart area, not centered on the entire torso, so I made a note to mimic that difference. 

After after a few months, I could not discern any difference to my health or qi flow from adding that, so did not continue. 

The past few days in my sitting meditation, I noticed some blockage in my lower back and left side of my back was starting to clear up, because I was getting some electrical current qi flow there, increasing circulation to my left arm, and also loosening some tightness in my right hip and leg. 

And then I figured out what the two nuns were telling me. In my vision, they weren't sitting. But for me, sitting in full lotus position with that lower left back tightness (I don't get that tightness standing), making circular qigong motions in front of my heart has the effect of loosening and moving the whole left side of my back. 

So doing this exercise was not to circulate qi in the front side of the torso, for me this is to loosen the backside of my left. 

Doing this exercise in full lotus will accelerate the fixing of the blockage.

Once again, thanks to my anonymous Deva friends.

I'm quite certain EBT warriors from the past living in other planes also give me inspiration on tracking down crimes against the EBT from time to time, because I know on my own there are things I wouldn't spend so much time tracking down or even getting the notion to investigate in the first place without some kind of external push. 

I also have a standing offer to Abhidhamma and Vism. Devas, you're welcome to visit me in my dreams and meditation to dispute or challenge any of my findings. No takers so far.

KN Ps 1.3 breath meditation step 4 pacifying bodily-co-activities, translation/interpretation question

 

(16aps gloss step 4 – 🌊🏃pacify bodily co-activities & breath (san khara)

(long and short inhales and exhales are bodily-co-activities (kaya-sankhara))

Kathaṃ ‘‘passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’’ti sikkhati,	How does he train as, “I will breathe in pacifying the bodily-co-activity”.
‘‘passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’’ti sikkhati?	How does he train as, “I will breathe out pacifying the bodily-co-activity”.
Katamo kāya-saṅkhāro?	What is bodily-co-activity?
Dīghaṃ assāsā kāyikā.	The long in-breaths are bodily.
Ete dhammā kāya-paṭibaddhā kāya-saṅkhārā.	These dharma [phenomena] that are bound to the body are bodily-co-activity.
Te kāya-saṅkhāre passambhento nirodhento vūpasamento sikkhati.	He trains, (by) pacifying, ceasing, tranquillizing those bodily-co-activities.
Dīghaṃ passāsā kāyikā.	The long in-breaths are bodily.
Ete dhammā kāya-paṭibaddhā kāya-saṅkhārā.	These dharma [phenomena] that are bound to the body are bodily-co-activities.
Te kāya-saṅkhāre passambhento nirodhento vūpasamento sikkhati.	He trains (by) pacifying, ceasing, tranquillizing those bodily-co-activities.
Rassaṃ assāsā rassaṃ passāsā.	[The same applies to] the short in-breaths and short out-breaths.

(16aps step 3 experiencing the entire body while breathing are bodily-co-activities (kaya-sankhara))

Sabbakāya-paṭisaṃvedī assāsā	(the) whole-body-experiencing (with the) inhaling,
sabbakāya-paṭisaṃvedī passāsā	(the) whole-body-experiencing (with the) exhaling,
kāyikā.	(those are also) bodily.
Ete dhammā kāya-paṭibaddhā kāya-saṅkhārā.	These dharma [phenomena] that are bound to the body are bodily-co-activities.
Te kāya-saṅkhāre	[regarding] those bodily-co-activities:
passambhento nirodhento vūpasamento	(by) pacifying, ceasing, tranquillizing .
sikkhati.	[that's how] He trains.

(body shaking that occurs in SN 54.7 are bodily-co-activities (kaya-sankhara))

Yathārūpehi kāya-saṅkhārehi	Those kind of bodily-co-activities
yā kāyassa ānamanā vinamanā sannamanā paṇamanā	such as bending forward and backward of the body, contracting and stretching,
iñjanā phandanā calanā pakampanā –	moving, throbbing, trembling, quaking
passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ assasissāmīti sikkhati,	– he trains as, “I will breath-in pacifying (those kind of) bodily-co-activity”;
passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ passasissāmīti sikkhati.	he trains as, “I will breath out pacifying (those kind of) bodily-co-activity”.

(even with no gross body shaking, those peaceful and refined postures are also bodily-co-activities (kaya-sankhara) that he can pacify even further)

Yathārūpehi kāya-saṅkhārehi	Those kind of bodily-co-activities
yā kāyassa na ānamanā na vinamanā na sannamanā na paṇamanā	such as not bending forward and backward of the body, not contracting and stretching,
aniñjanā aphandanā acalanā akampanā	not moving, not throbbing, not trembling, not quaking,
santaṃ sukhumaṃ	peaceful, subtle –
passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ assasissāmīti sikkhati,	he trains as, “I will breath-in pacifying (those kind of) bodily-co-activity”;
passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ passasissāmīti sikkhati.	he trains as, “I will breath out pacifying (those kind of) bodily-co-activity”.
Iti kira ‘‘passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’’ti sikkhati,	Thus indeed, he trains as, “I will breathe in pacifying the bodily-co-activity”;
‘‘passambhayaṃ kāya-saṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’’ti sikkhati.	he trains as, “I will breathe out pacifying the bodily-co-activity”.

(what does this section mean? )

Evaṃ sante vātūpaladdhiyā ca pabhāvanā na hoti,	that being so, there is no production of the experience of wind,
assāsapassāsānañca pabhāvanā na hoti,	and there is no production of in-breaths and out-breaths,
ānāpānassatiyā ca pabhāvanā na hoti,	and there is no production of mindfulness of breathing,
ānāpānassatisamādhissa ca pabhāvanā na hoti;	and there is no production of concentration by mindfulness of breathing,
na ca naṃ taṃ samāpattiṃ paṇḍitā samāpajjantipi vuṭṭhahantipi.	and consequently the wise neither enter into nor emerge from that attainment.

Proposed answers from forum discussion:

(from unknown commenter to blog):

For what it's worth, that final section you cite, asking, "What dos this section mean?" appears on p. 68 of Ven. Nanamoli's Mindfulness of Breathing. He translates that and the following passage as follows:

(If) it is thus, (it is objected): “`Calming the bodily formation,
I shall breathe in,’ thus he trains himself; ‘calming the bodily
formation, I shall breathe out,’ thus he trains himself’—this
being so, there is no production of awareness of wind, and there
is no production of the in-and-out breathing, and there is no
production of mindfulness of breathing, and there is no
production of mindfulness of breathing concentration, and
accordingly the wise neither enter into, nor emerge from, that
attainment.”

(Yet since) it is thus, (it is replied): “`Calming the bodily
formation, I shall breathe in,’ thus he trains himself; ‘calming the
bodily formation, I shall breathe out,’ thus he trains himself’—
this being so, there is production of awareness of wind,181 and
there is production of the in-and-out breathing, and there is
production of mindfulness of breathing, and there is production
of mindfulness of breathing concentration, and accordingly the
wise do enter into, and emerge from, that attainment.”

So, according to Ven. Nanamoli, the section is the first of a two-part Q&A, with the first passage representing a wrong-view.

Vimt. chinese -> English passage correction: sound is a thorn in first jhana, relation to arupa and alara kalama 500 carts

 

Vimt. Corrections

sound is a thorn in first jhana, relation to arupa and alara kalama 500 carts

2021-January. Correction by Dr. William Chucomment: The translator (Soma Thera) fails to take into account that literary Chinese is often highly abbreviated, and contextual lacuna have to be filled. On a related note, I believe that the classical jhanic scheme (including the one found in Vimuttimagga) is still slightly distinct from the very early suttas, which really defines jhanas broadly. An example would be that, there are archaic traces in the early suttas that maintain that even speech is possible while in jhanas. Whereas in the classical (mature and stabilized) scheme, speech is ceased in first jhana. Also, in the oldest materials, the cessation of bodily sankharas in fourth jhana doesn't seem to denote the cessation of breath (the latter interpretation is found in the MN).

vimt. 8th chapter, after 4th jhana where it starts talking about base of infinite space

以斷故。	"As for bringing to cessation [the form concentrations],
問何 故於彼不修道。	someone might ask, 'why not [continue to] cultivate [the form concentrations]?'
答為厭於色。	Answer: 'That someone has become disenchanted with form, [therefore he does not continue to cultivate the form concentration].'
是故於彼不滅於彼不盡故。	[When one is not disenchanted with a state], then he does not extinguish or bring to an end [that particular state].
入初禪聲是其刺如是。	Just as 'sound is a thorn for the first jhana,' [and vitakka-vicara are thorns for the second jhana, and happiness is a thorn for the third jhana, and pleasure is a thorn for the fourth jhana],
佛所 說於此為厭色以修行道。	so too, the Buddha teaches disenchantment toward form as a way to cultivate the path [of the formless attainments].
是故於此成斷。	In that way, a person would be able to bring to cessation [the form concentrations].
於此斷故。	By bringing to cessation [the form concentrations],
無色定不動行想。	one would attain the imperturbable perception of the formless--
寂寂解脫想。	the perception of [finding] liberation in profound quiescence.
如迦蘭欝頭藍弗入無想定。	[Such quiescence] is like when Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta enter the non-perception attainment,
五百車從前去來不見不聞。	they neither see or hear the five hundred carts that happen to pass by them."

Dr. Chu expands on his comments on 4th jhana body sankhara ceasing

There are sutta instances where one attains jhanas while preaching a sermon; other instances also have people in jhana speaking in a manner that is conducive to disenchantment, dispassion...and not in a vulgar, sensuality-conducing way. These are sutta instances that are in contradiction with the later, formalized suttanta scheme involving the "necessary symptoms" of jhanas. Notice that the [older] suttas that allow for speech in jhanas invariably do not involve a numeric scheme for jhanas (whether there are 4, or 5, or 3, or more rarely, some other numbers, such as 2, in the later, systematized ones). The numerically designated jhana is a later thing. For one, sutta compilers initially did not decide on the number 4, and dabbled with saying that there are 2, 3, or 5 jhanas until settling on 4; the older instances convey no sense of a formal classification system involving first, second...fourth jhanas.--Bodily sankharas, prior to the proto-Abhidhamma period, simply means bodily activities, as opposed to breathing. Only in late suttas like MN44 (where catechistic questions are matched with a definitive, formalized answer) would you have bodily sankharas strictly denoting the breathing activity, and that the cessation of bodily sankhara being strictly interpreted as cessation of breath.Virtually all other suttas would not have bodily sankharas as breath.Some examples: AN4.235: "There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious/non-injurious bodily sankharas..." (How can the breath be divided into the ethically injurious or non-injurious kinds? The early notions of bodily sankharas include things like killing/non-killing, stealing/non-stealing...)SN47.10 lists bodily excitation vs bodily relaxation as pertaining to one of the most important objects of mindfulness, and is really what "pacification of bodily sankharas" means.There are other suttas that clearly explain bodily sankharas as things like walking, sitting...--In the feeling-based satipatthana and the 16-step anapanasati, the following practices are listed: "sensitize oneself to happiness; sensitize oneself to pleasure; know mental sankharas; pacify mental sankharas." Notice that this scheme has a direct correlation with the 4-jhana scheme (the fourth jhana involves pacification of happiness and pleasure, among other things; and all the jhanas involve pacifying sankharas of one sort or another). Within this context, mental activities are specifically those pertaining to the following: the way one relates to happiness/pleasure, the way one manufactures, maintains, enjoys/eats said happiness/pleasure, the way one weans off/transcends over happiness/pleasure...My students who understand jhanic progression in such a manner manage to produce way better or much more productive results than those who merely tried to work with generic mental sankharas. My students who understand pacification of bodily sankharas per SN47.10 et al's instructions (deep bodily relaxation) do way better than those who merely tried to pacify their breaths.There's too much that can be said on this subject. I am of the opinion that present-day Theravada's strict interpretation of bodily sankharas, pacification, satipatthana, jhanas...is not very helpful to appreciate the accessibility and potency of the Buddha's meditation system.



is "mindfulness immersed in the body" a proper translation/interpretation for kāyagatā sati?

 

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:44 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 amIn http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

What alternatives do you propose Bhante?
I'm using AT's 'immersed' for now, but I'll change to something else if we think it's problematic.
I'm ok with Assaji's proposed 'body-related' sati, but I'm not seeing what's so bad about 'immersed'.
What exactly is the problem, what misunderstanding are people going to have that negatively impacts their understanding of kayagatasati?

I think kayagatasati, like marana-sati, anapana-sati, and just sati, are all already commonly misunderstood. And the reason is because the Buddha is not labeling those practices with long descriptive precise words. They're meant to be short nicknames to be easily referred to.

I edited the wikipedia page for marana-sati to give it the correct meaning, and some low life reverted my changes a few weeks later with no explanation and notification, and almost a year later I noticed that and changed it back again, this time setting alerts to let me know if anyone tries to change it.
Marana sati is not a general inquiry into the nature and implications of death. The Buddha gave it a precise meaning in the suttas.

I bring up that incident because it's partially caused by people reading too much into the name 'marana sati' and thinking it's fully describing the practice.
"mindfulness" as we know is completely misunderstood by most people. It takes careful sutta study to actually reveal that
sati means one remembers Dharma [teachings, instructions] relevant to the task at hand, using 4 satipatthana as the default.
It would be unwieldy to say that every time, so the Buddha just says ,'sati.'

Similarly with kayagata, we can't expect a correct translation is going to make people understand what the practice actually is.Disciples during the Buddha's time would have needed an explanation, because it's just a short nickname, just like marana sati, and sati.

www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by Assaji » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:05 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 amIn http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

"Immersed" surely contradicts the Commentary:

Bhāvetabbaniddese kāyagatāsatīti kāyagatāsatisuttante (ma. ni. 3.153 ādayo) vuttā ānāpāna-catuiriyāpatha-khuddakairiyāpatha-dvattiṃsākāra-catudhātu-navasivathikāpaṭikūla- vavatthāpakamanasikāra-sampayuttā yathānurūpaṃ rūpajjhānasampayuttā ca sati. Sā hi tesu kāyesu gatā pavattāti kāyagatāti vuccati.

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 1.123

From PED:

Pavatta (adj.) [pp. of pavattati] 1. (adj.) happening, going on, procedure, resulting Th 2, 220 (assu ca pavattaŋ, taken by Mrs. Rh. D. as "tears shed"); ThA 179; PvA 35, 83 (gāthāyo), 120, esp. with ref. to natural products as "that which comes," i. e. normal, natural, raw; ˚phala ready or natural, wild fruit (gained without exertion of picking), in cpds. ˚phalika SnA 295 sq.; ˚bhojana (adj.) J i.6; iii.365; Vism 422, and, ˚bhojin one who lives on wild fruit (a certain class of ascetics, tāpasā) D i.101; M i.78, 343; A i.241; ii.206; cp. DA i.269 sq. & SnA 295, 296. ˚maŋsa fresh or raw meat (flesh) Vin i.217 (cp. Vin. Texts ii.81). -- 2. (nt.) "that which goes on," i. e. the circle or whirl of existence Miln 197, 326 (cp. Miln trsln ii.200 "starting afresh in innumerable births," quot. fr. C.), opp. appavatta freedom from Saŋsāra, i. e. Nibbāna ibid. -- 3. founded on, dealing with, relating to, being in S iv.115 (kuraraghare p. pabbata); DA i.92 (ādinaya˚), 217 (˚pīti -- sukha being in a state of happiness).

Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio -- reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to (c. acc.), opp. ṭhita: gate ṭhite nisinne (loc. abs.) when going, standing, sitting down (cp. gacchati 1) D i.70; opp. āgata: yassa maggaŋ na jānāsi āgatassa gatassa vā Sn 582 (cp. gati 2). Also periphrastic (=gacchati 5 b): aṭṭhi paritvā gataŋ "the bone fell down" J iii.26. Very often gata stands in the sense of a finite verb (=aor. gacchi or agamāsi): yo ca Buddhaŋ . . . saraṇaŋ gato (cp. gacchati 4) Dh 190; attano vasanaṭṭhānaŋ gato he went to his domicile J i.280; ii.160; nāvā Aggimālaŋ gatā the ship went to Aggimālā J iv.139. <-> 2. in applied meaning: gone in a certain way, i. e. affected, behaved, fared, fated, being in or having come into a state or condition. So in sugata & duggata (see below) and as 2nd part of cpds. in gen., viz. gone; atthaŋ˚ gone home, set; addha˚ done with the journey (cp. gat -- addhin); gone into: taṇhā˚ fallen a victim to thirst, tama˚ obscured, raho˚, secluded, vyasana˚ fallen into misery; having reached: anta˚ arrived at the goal (in this sense often combd with patta: antagata antapatta Nd2, 436, 612), koṭi˚ perfected, parinibbāna˚ having ceased to exist. vijjā˚ having attained (right) knowledge; connected with, referring to, concerning: kāya˚ relating to the body (kāyagatā sati, e. g. Vism 111, 197, 240 sq.); diṭṭhi˚ being of a (wrong) view; sankhāra˚, etc. -- Sometimes gata is replaced by kata and vice versa: anabhāvaŋkata>anabhāvaŋ gacchati; kālagata>kālakata (q. v.).

Pali Terms Index

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:05 am

Hi Assaji, can you expand on what you mean contradicting the cmy? KN Ps bit you quoted looks like it's defining KGS (kaya gata..) as the exercises listed in MN 119. Does "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body" contradict that?
And which meaning of pavatta is being applied in the KN Ps cmy?
Could you state briefly how you understand the cmy, and what are better translations for KGS ? I'm surely missing nuances from my level of pali comprehension.

Hi Frank,

frank k wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:05 amcan you expand on what you mean contradicting the cmy? KN Ps bit you quoted looks like it's defining KGS (kaya gata..) as the exercises listed in MN 119. Does "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body" contradict that?

Yes. Nine charnel ground contemplations are related to the body, there's no "immersion" in the body.

And which meaning of pavatta is being applied in the KN Ps cmy?

Third one from PED, which I highlighted in bold.

Could you state briefly how you understand the cmy, and what are better translations for KGS ? I'm surely missing nuances from my level of pali comprehension.

You understood it pretty well, the Commentary lists the exercises described in MN 119. Translation in PED and Margaret Cone's dictionary as "relating to the body" is better.

Sphairos gave above a useful gloss:

Kāyagatāsatinti kāyapariggāhikampi kāyārammaṇampi satiṃ. Kāyapariggāhikanti vutte samatho kathito hoti, kāyārammaṇanti vutte vipassanā.

Retention related to the body is the retention which prehends the body or has the body as the basis. The one which prehends the body is spoken of with reference to samatha, the one which has the body as the basis is spoken of with reference to vipassanā.

Re: "Gata" translated as "Immersed"

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Post by frank k » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:25 am

Kumara wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:58 pmquoting scholar...: In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649). This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan ( 2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated. The term kāyagatā sati is synonymous with kāyasati (mindfulness of one’s sentient organism) that appears in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta quoted above (see Kuan 2008 , pp. 43–44).
...

While I don't disagree that all 4sp are necessary to perform kayagatasati (KGS), I believe there is an emphasis on involving attention on the physical body, and not just generically referring to 4sp.
Here are all the pali sutta references to KGS:
http://lucid24.org/sted/kayagatasati/index.html

Especially check out (AN 1.583 This is 2nd jhāna here, done in conjunction with kāyagatā-sati)

“Eka-dhamme, bhikkhave, bhāvite bahulīkate
“When one ☸Dharma, monks, is developed and cultivated
kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati,
the body and mind become pacified,
vitakka-vicārā-pi vūpasammanti,
thinking and considering settle down,
kevalāpi vijjābhāgiyā dhammā
and all of the ☸Dharmas that play a part in realization
Bhāvanā-pāripūriṃ gacchanti.
are developed to perfection.
Katamasmiṃ Eka-dhamme?
What one ☸Dharma?
kāya-gatāya satiyā.
body-immersed remembering.

That should remind people of another practice that is bodily sensation immersed known for cutting off vitakka and vicara, anapanassati breath meditation.

So anapana, KGS, chapanaka sutta (6 animals restrained by KGS as post), janapada (beauty queen, balancing bowl of oil), all feature continuous careful attention to physical body awareness.

If one were to take KGS as just another way of saying kaya doing 4sp satipatthana, obviously breath meditation and janapada and chapanaka only doing citta anupassana wouldn't work for most people. The untrained mind trying to watch itself gets lost in confused thoughts and doesn't even know it's getting lost. KGS is giving you a concrete anchoring reference so it's clear when the mind has wandered off from the anchor.