Saturday, February 17, 2024

AN 7.67 hiri and otappa (shame and fear of wrong doing): more "noble disciple" absurdity from most translators


I've translated ariya-savaka correctly here, but imagine we're using the wrong translation of "noble disciple" and think about the implications. 



7.67.3.2 - (hiri/sense-of-shame → moat deep and wide)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare parikkhā hoti gambhīrā ceva vitthatā ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a moat that is deep and wide,
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako hirīmā hoti, hirīyati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, hirīyati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has a proper sense of shame. They’re ashamed of bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and ashamed of having any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
Hirīparikkho kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with shame as their moat gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā dutiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (2)
This is the second true Dharma they have.

7.67.3.3 – (otappa/dread wrong-doing → patrol path)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare anupariyāyapatho hoti ucco ceva vitthato ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a patrol path that is high and wide,
Evamevaṃ, kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ottappī hoti, ottappati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, ottappati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has dread. They dread bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and they dread acquiring any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
Ottappapariyāyapatho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with dread as their patrol path gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā tatiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (3)
This is the third true Dharma they have.


What if that 'noble disciple' is an arahant or non-returner?


1. An arahant has completely uprooted any greed, aversion, and ignorance. It's impossible for them to form an action for them to be ashamed about, or to dread doing and fearing consequence.

2. A non returner has uprooted greed and aversion, they're also not capable of doing things for which they would feel shame or dread wrong doing. 


So really,  the only class of "noble disciples" who need to possess  the factors of hiri and otappa (shame and dread)  are stream enterers and once returners.


Conclusion

ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones, not "noble disciple" (an enlightened being of 4 classes).

A disciple MAY be noble, but from the many sutta passages similar to this passage AN 7.67, it's obviously addressed to a majority of people who are not enlightened and still working on purifying their mind and actions.

I've recently been working on Chinese Agama translations to English with google translate, and guess what? 

google translate and other AI engines wrongly translates the Chinese version of  'ariya savaka' as "noble disciple".

AI is only as good as the source it's trained on, and if most translators are wrong, your output is going to be wrong.

It's important to do things correctly when it's this straightforward and obvious.

If you don't notify translators and voice your opinion, then the problems are only to get worse.


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