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Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

The Caste System (Brahmin and Kshatriya) Summary: ... The system of classification, Varna is a system that existed in the Vedic Society that divided the society into four classes Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (skilled traders, merchants), and Shudras (unskilled workers).Nov 25, 2015
The Caste System (Brahmin and Kshatriya) – Religion 100Q ...

https://scholarblogs.emory.edu › 2015/11/25 › the-caste-system-brahmin-an...


Explanation： khattiya : [m.] a man of the warrior caste. (adj.),to belonging Khattiyas. || khattiyā (f.), a woman of the Khattiya clan.
khattiya - Dictionary | Buddhistdoor

https://www.buddhistdoor.net › dictionary › details › khattiya


MN 96 (b.sujato) (4 castes hierarchy explained here)

“brāhmaį¹‡Ä, bho gotama, catasso pāricariyā paƱƱapenti—
“Master Gotama, the brahmins prescribe four kinds of service:
brāhmaį¹‡assa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti, khattiyassa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti, vessassa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti, suddassa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti.
for a brahmin, an aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker.
Tatridaį¹ƒ, bho gotama, brāhmaį¹‡Ä brāhmaį¹‡assa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti:
This is the service they prescribe for a brahmin:
‘brāhmaį¹‡o vā brāhmaį¹‡aį¹ƒ paricareyya, khattiyo vā brāhmaį¹‡aį¹ƒ paricareyya, vesso vā brāhmaį¹‡aį¹ƒ paricareyya, suddo vā brāhmaį¹‡aį¹ƒ paricareyyā’ti.
‘A brahmin, an aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker may all serve a brahmin.’
Idaį¹ƒ kho, bho gotama, brāhmaį¹‡Ä brāhmaį¹‡assa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti.
Tatridaį¹ƒ, bho gotama, brāhmaį¹‡Ä khattiyassa pāricariyaį¹ƒ paƱƱapenti:
This is the service they prescribe for an aristocrat:
‘khattiyo vā khattiyaį¹ƒ paricareyya, vesso vā khattiyaį¹ƒ paricareyya, suddo vā khattiyaį¹ƒ paricareyyā’ti.
‘An aristocrat, a merchant, and a worker may all serve an aristocrat.’

AN 11.10 (b.sujato trans.) 

‘Khattiyo seį¹­į¹­ho janetasmiį¹ƒ,
 ‘The aristocrat is best of those people
ye gottapaį¹­isārino;
 who take clan as the standard.
Vijjācaraį¹‡asampanno,
 But one accomplished in knowledge and conduct
so seį¹­į¹­ho devamānuse’”ti.
 Is best of gods and humans.’”    


Re: Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

Post by frank k » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:46 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:25 am
It is not a bad translation. Possibly better than the widely used “warrior.”

Khattiya were kings and rulers.
I can't think of what sutta at the moment, but I recall a passage saying something to the effect that the khattiya (warrior) class was the best, because of the mental toughness, the tenacity, the ability to face extreme adversity. The concept of 'warrior' matches that perfectly. The concept of 'nobleman' or 'aristocrat' brings to mind a fat cat hiding in his castle and ordering his servants and soldiers to do the hard work.


ar·is·toc·ra·cy

/ĖŒerəĖˆstƤkrəsē/
noun
the highest class in certain societies, especially those holding hereditary titles or offices.
"the ancient Polish aristocracy had hereditary right to elect the king"
synonyms: the nobility, the peerage, the gentry, the upper class, the ruling class, the privileged class, the elite, high society, the establishment, the patriciate, the haut monde, the beau monde; More
a form of government in which power is held by the nobility.
a state governed by the aristocracy.
plural noun: aristocracies


A friend responded:
Hello Frank,
I did a little look-up in O.E.D.
Aristocracy is a Greek origin compound meaning best-rule. The rule part,
cracy, it would be my bet, is related to khattiya; but that is not
official. But the word Aristocrat, does not come directly from the
Greek, but from the French, coined during the French Revolution to
distinguish between Democracy and the oligarchic aristocracy that
previously ruled thinking themselves the best to rule.
I have used 'aristocrat' for 'ariya' where it indicates noble behavior
(as in the ariya atthangika magga), because that must be the origin of
the 'aristo' part, that is: 'worthy' which is close enough to 'best'.
And aristocratic is in common usage as indicating noble behavior.
The fact is that the khattiya were the rulers, though the kings often
delegated administration of towns and lands to the brahmins. This was
pretty standard throughout the world until the American and French
Revolutions. That is that the warriors were also the bosses.
And I think the four colors business is actually a reasonable way
hierarchies in human populations develop. Here we have 'politicians and
the military', 'academics and preachers', 'merchants' and 'workers'.
The truest translation would be 'warrior' but that does not convey today
the idea of rule, whereas 'aristocrat' does. And again looking back at
the history, the aristocrat class did emerge from the warriors.
Conclusion: Aristocrat for khattiya is reasonable. 

Re: Why does B. Sujato translate the khattiya class as "aristocrat"? "Warrior" seems to be the standard translation.

Post by frank k » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:24 am
Is there a way to set up a vote on dhammawheel forum software?

I propose these as better translations for khattiya:

warrior-kings
warrior-rulers
warrior-noblemen
warrior-nobles

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