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pattern "anidass" appears in 5 suttas:

DN ^11.4.1 where nāma, rūpa, viññāna cease without remainder

DN ^33.3 threefold classification of rūpa with 4 permutations of visible (dassana) and resistant (patigha)

MN ^21.6 sky is ākāso arūpī anidassano, formless and invisible

MN ^49.9.7 Buddha says Brahma has no knowledge of Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ

SN ^43.44 Anidassanañca is listed among other synonyms for nirvana

DN 33 is not talking about viññāna, just rūpa.

MN 21 context is doing metta to the whole world, so even though viññāna is not mentioned, but metta can be done with 4 jhānas (which operate in rūpa) or formless dimensions.

The remaining 3 suttas all seem to be the context of samādhi perceiving nirvana.

so what is the best translation for anidassana? Sujato's "invisible consciousness" is untenable if we assume it should have the same translation for all 5 suttas.

And DN 11 and SN 43 show this state is definitely not referring the dimension of infinite consciousness.

In DN 11, in this state nāma, rūpa, viññāna all cease. Obviously those things can't cease in dimension of infinite consciousness.

Translations for anidassana:

Bodhi: unmanifest

Thanissaro: without surface:

External

Essay by Charlie

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/dn11-five-aggregates-vinanna-anidassana/31147

Essay by Sunyo (proposing this is formless state of infinite consciousness)

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vinna-a-anidassana-the-state-of-boundless-consciousness/22262

Indian, Thai, Sri Lankan, Burmese: how accurate is their pronunciation of pāḷi

 

Re: How to easily learn to pronounce Pali words?

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Unread post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:40 pm

Here's Ven Dhammanando's comments on the matter:

Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:06 am

Srilankaputra wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:21 pmBhante,

How close do you think the current pronunciation of pali to the original?

Assuming that the phonetic descriptions given in the ancient Pali grammars are correct, then the modern way of pronunciation that comes closest to this is that of Indian and Bangladeshi bhikkhus. Typically they'll get all the sounds correct except the palatals ca and ja.

After the Indians the next best are the Sinhalese. Their main mistake is either to fail to aspirate the aspirated consonants (e.g., dha as da, ṭha as ṭa) or to hypercorrect by pronouncing non-aspirates as aspirates, e.g., mettā as metthā.

As for modern SE Asian ways of pronunciation, these are all very poor, with at least half of the consonants mispronounced. The pronunciation of the Thais and Cambodians is about equally bad; that of the Laotians is a bit worse and that of the Burmese the worst of all.

The typical pronunciation of an English-speaking Western bhikkhu will contain about the same number of mistakes as that of the Thais. Our main ones are not bothering to distinguish retroflex and dental consonants, but realizing both types as alveolars, aspirating ka, ta and pa, incorrect syllabification when a vagga consonant is followed by an avagga, turning doubled consonants into single ones (e.g., dhammaŋ as /damaŋ/), and turning the vowel in unstressed syllables into a schwa (e.g., a British Buddhist will probably pronounce buddha as /'budə/, while an American will do so as /'būdə/).

[His warning about the back-reading of Sinhala meanings into Pali of some Sri Lankan teachers
(viewtopic.php?p=421520#p421520) is also pertinent. Speaking a language that has evolved from languages related to Pali over a couple of thousand years doesn't necessarily make one an expert on Pali nuances.]

I've found it interesting to be currently doing weekly sits with a Sri Lankan group, where we also chant homages, precepts, and the Metta Sutta. I'm used to Thai chanting and don't have to make too many pronunciation adjustments apart from modifying the trailing "a"s into "err"s (Sambuddhaserr), but my ear for the minutiae is not great. A big difference is pitch. Thai people generally back-read Thai tone rules, giving predictable pitches. From my perspective (I may be wrong and they may follow some convnetion) the Sri Lankans appear to vary their pitch quite randomly, which can lead to a certain amount of dissonance. They also go awefully fast!

To me, chanting is a powerful community bond, so I make an effort to fit into whichever group I find myself in.

pāḷi chanting with no soul, understanding long and short syllables

 In pāḷi chanting, long syllables are twice as long (temporal) as short syllables.

This gives chanting kind of syncopated rhythm, kind of like jazz.

It's not just an aesthetic issue  or a minor detail that you can choose to obey if you like.

If you don't get the long and short correct, you're often saying a completely different word

with a completely different meaning.

In an oral tradition, where Dhamma (teachings) are recited, memorized, the syncopated rhythm helps to differentiate words and phrases when you memorize it.

It gives you audio cues for your memory to detect errors when you've for example reciting a sutta you haven't done in a long time.

As opposed to if the rhythm of the memorized Dhamma words was not syncopated, it would sound more bland, monotone, undifferentiated, and harder to detect memorization errors.

Following the proper rules of chanting pāḷi is like the difference between this:

and this.

Sanskrit pronunciation, as far as I can tell, on the rules of long syllables being twice as long (temporal) as short syllables,  is nearly identical to pāḷi.

Here's a very good chanting of the Heart Sutra in Sanskrit.

Be sure to turn on close captions, for sanskrit text, you can recognize the same pali words in there.

Here is the same heart sutra, with no regard for pronunciation rules, especially the differentiation between long and short syllables.

🔗📝collection of notes on kāya-saṅ-khāra

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4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → kāya-saṅ-khāra 

  

survey of all occurrences in the 5 nikāyas

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William Chu with illuminating kāya sankhāra notes from Agama EBT perspective
Vimt. chinese -> English passage correction: sound is a thorn in first jhana, relation to arupa and alara kalama 500 carts

A. Brahmali cites MN 52 and MN 64 as evidence that one has to emerge from jhāna to contemplate Dharma

 https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/what-ven-analayo-gets-wrong-about-samadhi-part-ii/33515/9

@HinM wrote:

Ven Analayo is correct in saying that Jhana is too refined a state to investigate anything.

@Brahmali response:  

Jhānas are contemplated after one emerges from them, see for instance MN 52 and MN 64.

Let's see what the pāḷi source text actually says:

MN 64 (Frank's Eng. translation) says

STED first jhāna j1🌘 )

🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi	Judiciously-secluded from desire for five cords of sensual pleasures,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi	Judiciously-secluded from unskillful ☸Dharmas,
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ	with directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	with [mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure born from judicious-seclusion,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in first jhāna.

So yadeva tattha hoti rūpagataṃ vedanāgataṃ saññāgataṃ saṅkhāragataṃ viññāṇagataṃ te dhamme

They see those dharmas there [while in jhāna]—included in form, feeling, perception, co-activities, and consciousness—as

(11ada💩 ways of seeing 5uk as dukkha)

a-niccato dukkhato	(1) im-permanent, (2) pain-&-suffering,
rogato gaṇḍato	(3) diseased, (4) an abscess,
sallato aghato	(5) a dart, (6) misery,
ābādhato parato	(7) an affliction, (8) alien,
palokato suññato	(9) falling apart, (10) empty,
anattato	(11) not-self,
samanupassati.	They see [5 aggregates while in jhāna having those 11 properties].

Now let's look at MN 64, but using Sujato's and B. Bodhi's translation

Sujato has

Householder, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.“Idha, gahapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.Then they reflect:So iti paṭisañcikkhati:‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’‘idampi kho paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ.

Sujato inserted "Then" himself. It's not in the pāḷi. 

B. Bodhi has

4. “Here, householder, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
He considers this and understands it thus:
‘This first jhāna is conditioned and volitionally produced.

Sujato, Brahm, Brahmali adding "THEN" is only because they understand their redefined Jhāna (different than the EBT suttas) to be a disembodied mental paralysis which one has to emerge from before contemplating Dharma.

I don't believe the Pāḷi grammar supports such ambiguous temporal distortion where you can freely decide whether something is concurrent, or discrete sequence of incompatible actions (having to first emerge from jhāna, before being able to contemplate Dharma).

But for the sake of argument, let's say Sujato is correct and the grammar does support that.

Frankk shows fallacy in Brahmali's reasoning:

Hypothetical example.

(frank describing what happens):

John is walking, while carrying a cup of coffee. He started drinking coffee.

(sujato describing the same scene):

John is walking, while carrying a cup of coffee. AND THEN He started drinking coffee.

According to Brahmali's reasoning, 

therefore John must have exited the state of walking before one can then begin drinking coffee.

But in reality, we know it's possible to be walking and drinking coffee at the same time.

Conclusion

Drinking coffee does not mean one had to first exit the state of walking before one could drink.

MN 52 and MN 64 is not evidence that one has to first exit jhāna before contemplating Dharma.

And if that's the best evidence Brahmali can come up with, you have to wonder if he has a valid interpretation of jhāna?

Ask him about MN 111 and AN 9.36 for example. 

Why would the Buddha have to make a special explicit statement about emerging from 8th and 9th attainment, and assuming "it's just understood" one has to emerge from the four jhānas?

 MN ¹¹¹ - MN 111 anu-pada: one after another
    MN ^111.1 - (smd1: 1st jhāna)
        MN ^111.1.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.2 - (smd2: 2nd jhāna)
        MN ^111.2.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.3 - (smd3: 3rd jhāna)
        MN ^111.3.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.4 - (smd4: 4th jhāna)
        MN ^111.4.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.5 - (smd 5: infinite space)
        MN ^111.5.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.6 - (smd 6: infinite consciousness)
        MN ^111.6.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.7 - (smd 7: nothingness dimension – perception attainments you do vipassana simultaneously in jhāna/samādhi)
        MN ^111.7.1 - (vipassana while in jhāna refrain)
    MN ^111.8 - (smd 8: requires “emerging” from attainment before doing vipassana)
        MN ^111.8.1 - (vipassana after emerging from attainment)
    MN ^111.9 - (smd 9: requires “emerging” from attainment before doing vipassana)
        MN ^111.9.1 - (Sariputta ended āsavā, becomes an arahant in this attainment)
        MN ^111.9.2 - (vipassana after emerging from attainment)
        MN ^111.9.5 – (there is no further escape beyond 9th attainment)
    MN ^111.10 – (conclusion: Sariputta is son of the Buddha, keeps rolling the wheel of Dharma)

And why is it in the 4 jhānas one can contemplate rūpa (physical form) and not be able to contemplate rūpa in the first 3 formless attainments?

https://lucid24.org/an/main/an09/index.html#9.36

Think about that carefully. If "it's understood one has to emerge from jhāna" before contemplating rūpa,

then in the formless attainments, in AN 9.36 it should allow you to contemplate form, since you've supposedly already emerged from the disembodied paralysis.

But it shows you can only contemplate 4 of the aggregates, excluding form:

9.36.5 – (Ākāsā-nañc-āyatanam: dimension of infinite space)

‘Ākāsānañcāyatanampāhaṃ, bhikkhave, jhānaṃ nissāya āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ.	‘The dimension of infinite space is also a basis for ending the asinine-inclinations.’
Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?	That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.	Take a monk who, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.

9.36.5.1 - (doing vipassana while in formless perception attainments, can not perceive rūpa physical body, can realize Nirvana)

So yadeva tattha hoti vedanāgataṃ saññāgataṃ saṅkhāragataṃ viññāṇagataṃ, te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato gaṇḍato sallato aghato ābādhato parato palokato suññato anattato samanupassati.	They contemplate the dharma there—included in feeling, perception, co-doings, and consciousness [no form here!]—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpeti.	They turn their mind away from those dharmas,
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati:	and apply it to the deathless:
‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.	‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, nirvāṇa.’

Which means you are still in a formless state while you're doing that contemplation (of 4 mental aggregates).

Ask Brahm, Sujato, Brahmali, Analayo about that.

See what they say.

(sound of crickets chirping).

And this also means you're not in a mental paralysis, which is how LBT Theravāda redefines 4 jhānas and first 3 perception formless attainments.

You can contemplate Dharmas (with non verbal mental processing) WHILE in the 4 jhānas and 7 perception attainments, by means of sampajāno, dhamma-vicaya, upekkha (upa+ikkhati).  

(crickets still chirping).

woman with dream premonition called out of work and avoids car crash, salmon rushdie had premonition, ignored it, stabbed 15 times almost died

 

salman rushdie had premonition, ignored it, stabbed 15 times almost died

13 min. interview on 60 minutes show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALh6y_wbp98

You may remember Salmon, who had a fatwa by Ayatollah issued (asking muslims to kill salman) for writing a book considered offensive to Muslims.

Interesting juxtaposition with another story that happened today.

A woman had two dreams, same morning, very vivid warning her not to go to work or else she'd be seriously injured in a car crash.

She heeded the warning, lived.

Salmon also had a dream before his attempted murder, told his wife he didn't want to go to the event (where he would be attacked and stabbed 15 times).

Then he thought, "it's just a dream, why should I believe it?"

woman with dream premonition called out of work and avoids car crash

New Jersey toll collector with ‘premonition’ called out of work before garbage truck crashed into booth

By  Aneeta Bhole

Published April 15, 2024, 11:51 p.m. ET

https://nypost.com/2024/04/15/us-news/new-jersey-toll-worker-saved-by-premonition/

Talk about a sixth sense!

A New Jersey toll booth attendant escaped potential injury or worse after she called out of work because of a premonition — the same day a garbage truck crashed into the toll plaza.

Jessica Daley, who works along the Garden State Parkway, told NBC New York she was jolted awake Friday morning with a “bad gut feeling … like something terrible was going to happen.”

A second warning came at 4 a.m., when she felt she was “going to get in a car accident.”

Jessica Daley told NBC New York she was awakened with a “bad gut feeling… like something terrible was going to happen.”

 3

Jessica Daley told NBC New York she had a “bad gut feeling … like something terrible was going to happen.”

 nbcnewyork

“It was so strong, that I actually called out and I never call out of work,” Daley told the broadcaster.

Four hours later, a garbage truck slammed into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza — the booth Daley is usually in.

An explosion of debris hit a nearby Chevy pickup truck and the toll booth.

 A toll collector and the driver of the vehicle suffered serious injuries.

“My immediate response, honestly, I dropped to my knees and just started crying.

 I was praying for everybody involved and thanking God that I had that feeling to call out,” she said when she’d been told of the accident soon after.

State police are still investigating the crash, and a spokesperson for the New Jersey Turnpike Authority said the injured toll collector has left the hospital.

A garbage truck is shown slamming into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza.

 3

A garbage truck slams into a collector’s booth at the Barnegat Toll Plaza.

 NJDOT

Daley and her family were left with mixed emotions.

“I think her gut instinct was an angel or a premonition from a guardian angel telling her not to go in to protect her,” said her mother, Jennifer.

“It’s hard to feel so happy that my daughter wasn’t there, and at the same time, feel heartbreak for the ones that were involved.”

Police are still investigating the crash that left one toll collector in the hospital.

Daley returned to work the next day and added that the warnings reinforced her faith.

“As of recently, I started getting a lot closer to God in the last like three months.

 I believe 100 percent that was God looking out for me,” she said.

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   EBT parallels ^4..111 - MN ¹¹¹ vipassana while in 4 jhānas and 7 perception attainments, 7sb☀️ are jhāna factors