Friday, March 1, 2024

MA 198 ariya savaka "noble disciple" loses their "nobility" (enlightenment is reversible? really?) || MN 125

4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → Ariya‍ 

✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya‍ 2.10

a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha). See Ariya‍ 3
sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, but not an arahant yet. See Ariya‍ 4

MN 125 All you need to become enlightened is shave your head and ordain as a buddhist monk

If we accept most translators' interpretation of "noble disciple", then we have the result that a householder who decides to become monk, they immediately become enlightened, guaranteed arahantship in 7 lifetimes or less.

Taṃ dhammaṃ suṇāti gahapati vā gahapatiputto vā aññatarasmiṃ vā kule paccājāto.
A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan.
So taṃ dhammaṃ sutvā tathāgate saddhaṃ paṭilabhati.
They gain faith in the Realized One,
So tena saddhāpaṭilābhena samannāgato iti paṭisañcikkhati:
and reflect:
‘sambādho gharāvāso rajāpatho, abbhokāso pabbajjā.
‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open.
Nayidaṃ sukaraṃ agāraṃ ajjhāvasatā ekantaparipuṇṇaṃ ekantaparisuddhaṃ saṅkhalikhitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ carituṃ.
It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell.
Yannūnāhaṃ kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajeyyan’ti.
Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’

125.3.1 - (renounce, shave head, work on sīla)

So aparena samayena appaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya appaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajati.
After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness.
Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, ariyasāvako abbhokāsagato hoti.
And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open,
Etthagedhā hi, aggivessana, devamanussā yadidaṃ—pañca kāmaguṇā.
for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation.

MA 198 is a close parallel to MN 125, with the same "noble disciple" absurdity (shave your head and become an arahant immediately) 

MN 198 also has an even more ridiculous problem not in MN 125, an arahant can lose their enlightenment!

4👑☸ → MA → MA 198 調御地經    || MN 125 

"tamed" = arahantship, or somewhere on the path of irreversible enlightenment

如是,阿奇舍那!若 聖弟子隨如來能堪忍者,彼於爾時調御、 善調御,得上調御、最上調御,得上息,最上 息,除諸曲惡、恐怖、愚癡及諛諂,清淨止塵, 無垢無穢,可呼可請,可敬可重,實可供 養,為一切天人良福田也。
Like this, Aciravata, when the noble disciple follows [the instructions of] the Tathāgata and is able to bear up [with all of this], at that time he is tamed, well tamed, has reached the higher taming, the supreme taming, has reached the higher peace, the supreme peace, has discarded all crookedness, fear, stupidity and deceitfulness, he has become pure, has settled the dust, is free from dirt, free from filth, fit to be praised, fit to be invited, fit to be revered, fit to be respected, truly fit for offerings, an excellent field of merit for all gods and men.


ariya savaka = "disciple of the noble ones", who may or may not have some degree of enlightenment,
not "noble disciple", 
which is  "a confirmed enlightened noble one, at minimum a stream enterer."

Most translators, In English and Chinese, stubbornly continue to make this error, despite Thanissaro Bhikkhu pointing out this problem and widely publishing correct translations of ariya savaka for over 25 years.

I recently ran most of the Chinese Agama sutras through google translate into English, and guess what?
It translates ariya savaka wrongly because AI can only be as accurate as the source its trained on.

Will translators fix their errors please?

And will the army of  ardent supporters of those translators give them a nudge to encourage them to do so?

Chinese and Pali source text for 'ariya savaka' has the same issue - grammatically ambiguous supporting both interpretations, but logic and coherence demands only one of those interpretations is valid and coherent in every reference.

Thursday, February 29, 2024

🔗📝notes on 'pari-mukha'


parimukha in breath meditation: case closed

4th jhāna physical pain and pleasure and neutral. Jhāna doesn't have special nervous system set aside for it

Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain

Post by frank k » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:40 am

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:06 pm...I think you understood what I meant by "tradition" and "absorbed".
I suspect what you might mean, but am not sure.
If you're asking what a legitimate EBT interpretation of 4 jhāna formula means,
MN 111 and MN 137 make it absolutely clear there's a physical body experiencing physical pain, pleasure, neutral.
MN 137 differentiates between upekkha of four jhānas as equanimity towards the 6 sensory gates of the physical body,
as opposed to upekkha of formless which is equanimity based on singleness (ekatta) which does not references the 5 bodily senses.
So MN 137 is saying upekkha of 4 jhanas is equanimity towards whatever is arising through bodily sense doors.
Which can't happen in a Vism. REdefined "jhana" being a frozen disembodied stupor.

You can hear sounds in all four jhanas, not just the first.
You can feel pain if someone pokes you with a pin all in 4 jhanas.

If the pain is strong enough or sound is loud enough, it can knock you out of 4th jhana or 1st jhana.

If it's mild, no big deal you can ignore.

There's a bodily transformation and jhana battery capacity change that happens over years.
Body gets softer, sensations get smoother, the more the jhana battery is charged up the more neither pain nor pleasure vedana is predominant.
Sukha pleasure faculty (physical) happens when the jhana battery is low.
Exactly the same happens with eating food.
When need is urgent to intake nutrients, you get high dosage of sukha (physical pleasure) when you eat and you're starving.
When you're full, not hungry anymore but you still eat, then you get upekkha and adukkham asukham neutral physical sensation and equanimity mentally.
If you keep eating even when you're stuffed, then you'll get physical pain.

There isn't some special nervous system and new set of pleasure hormones set aside for jhana.
It's the same sukha physical pleasure you experience from sex or eating food when you're hungry.
Same nervous system, same hormones and pleasure chemicals in the brain.
That's why you hear so many religious traditions with mundane jhana experience described as full body orgasm.

Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain
Post by frank k » Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 am
you asked: why does someone in the 4th Jhāna not feel pain if an insect bites him?

and I responded one DOES feel pain in 4th jhana, because the 5 senses operate.
if the pain is overwhelming, it knocks one out of 4th jhana.
If it's mild pain, one can ignore it.
Vimuttimagga, which is also based on Abhidhamma, supports an EBT based interpretation of sutta jhana.
Their defn. of "access" and "absorption" appana samadhi is different than Vism.
Vimt. uses a straightforward meaning of "sound is a thorn in jhana", and it also mentions sitting a long time leg pain can cause one to exit jhana, which agrees with exactly how I answered your original question.
"access" in vimt. is the same as EBT MN 19 where one over thinks causes body to be tired.
appanaa samadhi in vimt. means one's focus is locked in, never gets interrupted by 5 hindrances.


Wednesday, February 28, 2024

parimukha in breath meditation: case closed


Re: An Anapanasati Question

Post by frank k » 

Another problem with the [wrong] literal spatial interpretation of parimukha, which I never saw anyone point out,
is 'pari-mukham satim upatthavetva' is saying the 'establishing of sati' is 'parimukha',
not "the in breath and out breath" is parimukha.

Sati means remembering and applying the Dharma.
If no 'dharma' is explicitly defined, then default value of Dhamma is 4 satipatthana.
Buddha explicitly defines sati = 4 satipatthana in SN 47.2.
In breath meditation context, you could say 'dhamma' = the instructions on 16 steps of breath meditation that sati is being "mindful" of.

Establishing of sati is what we 'parimukha',
we establish remembering and application of the Dharma "in front" [parimukkha],
not establish "breathing at the nose".
Since establishing of sati is not a physical thing, it makes no sense to take 'in front' or 'entrance' as a physical location.
The same use of 'front', 'face', 'entrance' in modern English, old English, every language and culture exists I'm sure.
"Face the facts" (at your nostril?)
'con-front reality'. (at your nostiril? The booger sitting right there?)

It's amazing there can still be any controversy on this.
Even the Ajahn Brahm camp, which has [wrong] views on jhana similar to Vism., don't interpret parimukha for breath meditation as "focus attention at breathing in nostril."

another post noting that the parimukha instruction also appears before instructions to do metta and brahmaviharas

Re: An Anapanasati Question

Post by frank k » 

And what about Brahma realm gods, who don't even breathe or eat food?

How do Brahma gods do metta and other 4 brahmaviharas without watching the breath at their nostril?

So you're saying brahma gods, who don't need to eat food or breathe, suddenly grow a nose, lungs, and start watching a breath at their nose when they do metta and brahma viharas?

case closed

parimukha is not literal, but figurative here. This is absolutely certain, because that term is used in these other meditations that have nothing to do with the nostril.
Do you need to watch the breath at the nose to abandon 5 hindrances? Or do metta? Or watch defilements vanish?
Scriptural evidence; all of the practices below cannot be undertaken when mindfulness is affixed at mouth-nose:
EA17.1, the practice of contemplating on the inconstancy of the five aggregates is described, prefaced by the parimukham expression: “專精一心,念色無常,念痛、想、行、識無常”; “He diligently collects his mind, and contemplates on/brings to his mind that form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness are inconstant.”
DN25 (iii49), MN39, AN9.40, speaks of the expression “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti” as in “overcoming hindrances”
AN3.63, as in the “divine abodes”
AN3.63, as in realizing that one’s defilements have been eradicated
MN91, as in setting the mind on the welfare of oneself and others.
SN54.7: Mahā-kappina was practicing anapanasati, with “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti.” He experienced the quaking, or spontaneous tremor of the body as a disturbance. The Buddha instructed him to practice “anapanasati: the contemplation on abandoning, with parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti”
Ud5.10: “And on that occasion Ven. Cūḷa Panthaka was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, with mindfulness established to the fore…With steady body, steady awareness—whether standing, sitting, or lying down—a monk determined on mindfulness gains one distinction after another. ”
None of the above can be undertaken when attention is affixed at nose-mouth.
Another interesting point: the “early of the early” seem to not include this “parimukha” instruction in the standard meditation formula altogether (Ud21, 42, 43, 46, 60, 71, 77)
Mindfulness is not attention. Mindfulness is remembrance of one’s purpose, directionality, task…:
AN7.63: “Just as the royal frontier fortress has a gate-keeper — wise, experienced, intelligent — to keep out those he doesn't know and to let in those he does, for the protection of those within and to ward off those without…In the same way a disciple of the noble ones is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. With mindfulness as his gate-keeper, the disciple of the ones abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is blameless, and looks after himself with purity. With this sixth true quality is he endowed.”
To say that one should direct one’s mindfulness to a spatial location simply doesn’t make sense. Practitioners have to put the Teaching in front (mukha), i.e. invoke it in mind; It is akin to “gatekeeping” because the act of remembering the Dhamma is both to preserve it and to be preserved by it (śrutidharā). When one does mindfulness of the body, what one does is really not simply directing attention and affixing it to the body, but rather being mindful of body-related issues within the context of appropriate attention (e.g. practicing it with the purpose of preserving bodily ease, preventing bodily fever, and of inducing disenchantment…).

Friday, February 23, 2024

8m vid: Chinese Diplomat in austria who saved thousands of jews by writing visas


4bv☮️ Bank🏦: Bank of Brahma viharas - inspiring stories, videos to power your practice of metta and 4bv 

Also ignites your pīti pamojja (mental joy, rapture, rejoicing in skillful Dharmas) to power your jhāna.

Saturday, February 17, 2024

hiri + otappa = shame and dread, not "conscience and prudence"



ind. to conceal the genitals; lit. for the purpose of covering the shameful private parts [hirikopīna + paṭicchādana + attha + aṃ] ✓

MN 2.3.1 (Robes to ward off cold and heat, mosquitos...)

Katame ca, bhikkhave, āsavā paṭisevanā pahātabbā?
And what are the asinine-inclinations that should be given up by using?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭisaṅkhā yoniso cīvaraṃ paṭisevati:
Take a monk who, reflecting properly, makes use of robes:
‘yāvadeva sītassa paṭighātāya, uṇhassa paṭighātāya, ḍaṃsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassānaṃ paṭighātāya, yāvadeva hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṃ’.
‘Only for the sake of warding off cold and heat; for warding off the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; and for covering the private parts.’

A nun or monk wears a robe so they don't walk around naked.

If someone grabbed their robe and tore it, off, would they feel "shame" because their private parts are exposed?

or would they feel "conscience"? 

The word otappa has the root √tap which means really hot 

otappati pr. is heated; becomes warm [ava + √tap] ✗

Do you "fear" touching a hot stove?

Do you "dread" touching a hot stove?

Or do you feel "prudence" when touching a hot stove?

"conscience and prudence" is a really poor translation of hiri and otappa

It loses the emotional charge, the urgency, the warning of dire consequences that hiri and otappa are supposed to protect you from.

On a nuclear power plant, you want to see clear, bright signs warning of extreme dangers.

Not a discrete, hidden, camoflauged sign, small lettering, hard to read, saying "conscience and prudence should be exercised." 

I can only guess Sujato chose "conscience and prudence" because of emotional baggage from theistic religions with unskillful understandings of 'sin', 'shame', etc.

If you're contemplating actions of killing, stealing, raping, lying,  that's a nuclear reactor that needs bright urgent signs. You should feel shame, fear, dread, not conscience and prudence.

If you're going to a tea party with your friends, and you're worried about what to wear or what kind of snack to bring will cause any offense, that's "conscience and prudence."

AN 7.67 hiri and otappa (shame and fear of wrong doing): more "noble disciple" absurdity from most translators

I've translated ariya-savaka correctly here, but imagine we're using the wrong translation of "noble disciple" and think about the implications. - (hiri/sense-of-shame → moat deep and wide)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare parikkhā hoti gambhīrā ceva vitthatā ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a moat that is deep and wide,
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako hirīmā hoti, hirīyati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, hirīyati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has a proper sense of shame. They’re ashamed of bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and ashamed of having any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
Hirīparikkho kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with shame as their moat gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā dutiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (2)
This is the second true Dharma they have. – (otappa/dread wrong-doing → patrol path)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare anupariyāyapatho hoti ucco ceva vitthato ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a patrol path that is high and wide,
Evamevaṃ, kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ottappī hoti, ottappati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, ottappati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has dread. They dread bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and they dread acquiring any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
Ottappapariyāyapatho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with dread as their patrol path gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā tatiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (3)
This is the third true Dharma they have.

What if that 'noble disciple' is an arahant or non-returner?

1. An arahant has completely uprooted any greed, aversion, and ignorance. It's impossible for them to form an action for them to be ashamed about, or to dread doing and fearing consequence.

2. A non returner has uprooted greed and aversion, they're also not capable of doing things for which they would feel shame or dread wrong doing. 

So really,  the only class of "noble disciples" who need to possess  the factors of hiri and otappa (shame and dread)  are stream enterers and once returners.


ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones, not "noble disciple" (an enlightened being of 4 classes).

A disciple MAY be noble, but from the many sutta passages similar to this passage AN 7.67, it's obviously addressed to a majority of people who are not enlightened and still working on purifying their mind and actions.

I've recently been working on Chinese Agama translations to English with google translate, and guess what? 

google translate and other AI engines wrongly translates the Chinese version of  'ariya savaka' as "noble disciple".

AI is only as good as the source it's trained on, and if most translators are wrong, your output is going to be wrong.

It's important to do things correctly when it's this straightforward and obvious.

If you don't notify translators and voice your opinion, then the problems are only to get worse.