Thursday, March 31, 2022

Overcoming sexual desire in the hypersexualized modern culture

 

Re: Overcoming sexual desire in the hypersexualized modern culture

Post by frank k » 

If you can find a monastic community you like, live there keeping 8 precepts for an extended period of time, that gives you confidence you can do it, the longer the better, and the more you have an ingrained habit of voluntarily living a physically and mentally secluded lifestyle from the hindrances.

If you have to work, you don't have to live like a worldling outside of work.
I recommended to people to get slow internet access, too slow to enjoy viewing rich media, also give yourself long windows of internet and communication blackout with the outside world.

memorize important sutta passage, recite them frequently (and reflect on meaning as you recite).
Especially ones like
https://lucid24.org/misc/raft/index.html
AN 4.14,
SN 46.2

For sensuality, this part of SN 46.2 is especially sobering and clear and reminding you what to do:
(I recommend chanting just this part over and over again, it can put out fires)
(1. 💑 Kāma-c-chanda ← subha-nimittaṃ)
Ko ca, bhikkhave,
“{And} what, monks, [is the]
āhāro an-uppannassa vā
nutriment (for) un-arisen
kāma-c-chandassa uppādāya,
sensual-desire's arising,
uppannassa vā kāma-c-chandassa
(and) arisen sensual-desire's
bhiyyo-bhāvāya vepullāya?
growth,-development (and) abundance?
Atthi, bhikkhave,
There-is, monks,
subha-nimittaṃ.
(the) beautful-sign.
Tattha a-yoniso-manasi-kāra-bahulī-kāro—
(To) that-there, un-wise-mental-production-frequently-done,
ayam-āhāro an-uppannassa vā
is-the-nutriment (for) un-arisen
kāma-c-chandassa uppādāya,
sensual-desire's arising,
uppannassa vā kāma-c-chandassa
(and) arisen sensual-desire's
bhiyyo-bhāvāya vepullāya.
growth,-development (and) abundance.


Another concrete example using the above passage:

I was a hardcore meat eater when I was young. I enjoyed the taste of meat as much as anyone.
I became vegetarian when I was around 18, and it was easy because I focused my attention to this subha and asubha nimitta:
Whenever I saw food, saw meat, I didn't pay attention to the subha nimtta of "yum, delicious smell of meat, taste of meat, texture of meat".
Instead, I focused on the asubha nimitta of, "this was once a living being, that wanted to live, not to die. That wanted to be happy, not suffer the trauma of being murdered."
I was never tempted again in my life to eat meat due to its subha nimattas, and becoming vegetarian was really easy and no challenge at all. This was from staying focused on the asubha nimittas.
(I didn't know those sutta passages back then, was a novice meditator, just reflecting back now seeing that's how I overcame meat eating so easily, was due to the efficacy and principles of that sutta).



Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:44 amIt seems there is the difficulty in overcoming this desire.
Then there is the difficulty in even wanting to overcome it which comes first since the defiled mind wants to indulge.

Society is hypersexualized now, everywhere you go you seem women (and men) in various degrees of nakedness. This is even in the workplace. Then there is advertising, ready access of high resolution pornography at the touch of a button and social conditioning and approval towards increasing sexual desire.

What methods have people actually used to achieve success in reducing or overcoming sensual lust? I'm not talking about theory or just Pali suttas on the subject but the experiences of people in actually using these sources to overcome it and further to motivate oneself to do so and persist in it for extended periods of time.

I believe meditative progress particularly towards the jhanas is significantly impaired through difficulty in reducing this pervasive hindrance.


Tuesday, March 29, 2022

AN 3.101 gold washer, ☸Dhamma-vitakka💭 in this context defintely is the vitakka of first jhāna

 These are all the occurrences of 'Dhamma vitakka' in the suttas. 

AN 8.30 is especially explicit, unambiguous, unequivocal in giving eight examples of linguistic, verbal thoughts, right before using the same word, vitakka, to describe standard formula for first jhāna.

Because AN 3.101 doesn't explicitly call out which jhānas the samādhi is referring to, Sujato tries to use AN 3.101 in support of his erroneous interpretation of vitakka in first jhāna being non linguistic, non verbal, non-thought even.

But AN 8.30 makes it unequivocal that first jhāna is using a verbal vitakka. 


4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → ☸Dhamma-vitakka💭 

(KN Snp 5.14 is 'Dhamma-takka' in verse, which often for meter reasons, will use variations on standard terms, for example 'pekkhamano' and 'avekkhanta' are obviously 'upekkha' in Snp 5 context).



AN 3.101 gold washer, bookmarked comments to show correspondence of gold purification with which jhāna

 This article is part of 🔗AN 3.101 notes


(translation derived from B. Sujato‍, SP-FLUENT style additions by frankk‍)


101. Paṃsudhovakasutta
101. A Panner
“Santi, bhikkhave, jātarūpassa oḷārikā upakkilesā paṃsuvālukā sakkharakaṭhalā.
“Gold has coarse corruptions: sand, soil, and gravel.
Tamenaṃ paṃsudhovako vā paṃsudhovakantevāsī vā doṇiyaṃ ākiritvā dhovati sandhovati niddhovati.
A panner or their apprentice pours it into a pan, where they wash, rinse, and clean it.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate santi jātarūpassa majjhimasahagatā upakkilesā sukhumasakkharā thūlavālukā.
When that’s been eliminated, there are medium corruptions in the gold: fine grit and coarse sand.
Tamenaṃ paṃsudhovako vā paṃsudhovakantevāsī vā dhovati sandhovati niddhovati.
The panner washes it again.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate santi jātarūpassa sukhumasahagatā upakkilesā sukhumavālukā kāḷajallikā.
When that’s been eliminated, there are fine corruptions in the gold: fine sand and black grime.
Tamenaṃ paṃsudhovako vā paṃsudhovakantevāsī vā dhovati sandhovati niddhovati.
The panner washes it again.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate athāparaṃ suvaṇṇasikatāvasissanti.
When that’s been eliminated, only gold dust is left.
Tamenaṃ suvaṇṇakāro vā suvaṇṇakārantevāsī vā jātarūpaṃ mūsāyaṃ pakkhipitvā dhamati sandhamati niddhamati.
A goldsmith or their apprentice places the gold in a crucible where they blow, melt, and smelt it.
Taṃ hoti jātarūpaṃ dhantaṃ sandhantaṃ niddhantaṃ aniddhantakasāvaṃ, na ceva mudu hoti na ca kammaniyaṃ, na ca pabhassaraṃ pabhaṅgu ca, na ca sammā upeti kammāya.
Still the gold is not settled and the dross is not totally gone. It’s not pliable, workable, or radiant, but is brittle and not completely ready for working.
Hoti so, bhikkhave, samayo yaṃ suvaṇṇakāro vā suvaṇṇakārantevāsī vā taṃ jātarūpaṃ dhamati sandhamati niddhamati.
But the goldsmith keeps on blowing, melting, and smelting it.
Taṃ hoti jātarūpaṃ dhantaṃ sandhantaṃ niddhantaṃ niddhantakasāvaṃ, mudu ca hoti kammaniyañca pabhassarañca, na ca pabhaṅgu, sammā upeti kammāya.
The gold becomes pliable, workable, and radiant, not brittle, and ready to be worked.
Yassā yassā ca pilandhanavikatiyā ākaṅkhati—yadi paṭṭikāya, yadi kuṇḍalāya, yadi gīveyyake, yadi suvaṇṇamālāya—tañcassa atthaṃ anubhoti.
Then the goldsmith can successfully create any kind of ornament they want, whether a bracelet, earrings, a necklace, or a golden garland.
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, santi adhicittamanuyuttassa bhikkhuno oḷārikā upakkilesā kāyaduccaritaṃ vacīduccaritaṃ manoduccaritaṃ, tamenaṃ sacetaso bhikkhu dabbajātiko pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṃ gameti.
In the same way, a monk who is committed to the higher mind has coarse corruptions: bad bodily, verbal, and mental conduct. A sincere, capable monk gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate santi adhicittamanuyuttassa bhikkhuno majjhimasahagatā upakkilesā kāmavitakko byāpādavitakko vihiṃsāvitakko, tamenaṃ sacetaso bhikkhu dabbajātiko pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṃ gameti.
When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are middling corruptions: sensual, malicious, or cruel thoughts. A sincere, capable monk gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate santi adhicittamanuyuttassa bhikkhuno sukhumasahagatā upakkilesā ñātivitakko janapadavitakko anavaññattipaṭisaṃyutto vitakko, tamenaṃ sacetaso bhikkhu dabbajātiko pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṃ gameti.
When they’ve been given up and eliminated, there are fine corruptions: thoughts of family, country, and being looked up to. A sincere, capable monk gives these up, gets rid of, eliminates, and obliterates them.
Tasmiṃ pahīne tasmiṃ byantīkate athāparaṃ dhamma-vitakk-āvasissanti.
When they’ve been given up and eliminated, only thoughts about the ☸Dharma are left.
So hoti samādhi na ceva santo na ca paṇīto nap-paṭip-passaddha-laddho na ekodi-bhāv-ādhigato sa-saṅkhāra-niggayhavāritagato.
That undistractible-lucidity is not peaceful, not sublime, not [sufficiently] pacified, not [sufficiently] singular in focus, but is held in place by forceful suppression [of first jhāna’s vitakka thoughts focusing on the Dharma].
[Internal settling, singular focus, are the explicit terms that first appear in second jhāna’s formula, and are absent from the first jhāna.]
Hoti so, bhikkhave, samayo yaṃ taṃ cittaṃ ajjhattaṃyeva santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati.
But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, becomes singular in focus, and becomes undistractible and lucid in samādhi.
So hoti samādhi santo paṇīto paṭippassaddhiladdho ekodibhāvādhigato na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato.
That undistractible-lucidity is peaceful and sublime and pacified and singular in focus, not held in place by forceful suppression [of first jhāna’s thoughts related to Dharma].
Yassa yassa ca abhiññā sacchikaraṇīyassa dhammassa cittaṃ abhininnāmeti abhiññā sacchikiriyāya tatra tatreva sakkhibhabbataṃ pāpuṇāti sati satiāyatane.
They become capable of realizing anything that can be realized by insight to which they extend the mind, in each and every case.
(...)







Monday, March 28, 2022

🔗📝notes on AN 3.101 gold washer

Internal

 4👑☸AN‍AN 3 AN 3.101 



External


Although the sutta doesn't explicitly call out which stage of purified gold/mind is which jhāna, we can cross reference other suttas and establish first and fourth jhāna with almost absolute certainty

🔗AN 3.101 jhana mapping audit

AN 3.101 gold washer, bookmarked comments to show correspondence of gold purification with which jhāna







A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think

 

(translation style SP-FLUENT by frankk‍)

16. Du-k-kara-pañhā-sutta
16. A Question About What’s Hard to Do
“Kiṃ nu kho, āvuso sāriputta, imasmiṃ dhamma-vinaye duk-karan”ti?
“friend Sāriputta, in this Dharma and training, what is hard to do?”
“Pabbajjā kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhamma-vinaye duk-karā”ti.
“[deciding to become a monk and] Going forth , friend, is hard to do in this Dharma and training.”
“Pabbajitena panāvuso, kiṃ duk-karan”ti?
“But what’s hard to do for someone who has gone forth?”
“Pabbajitena kho, āvuso, abhi-rati duk-karā”ti.
“When you’ve gone forth it’s hard to be satisfied [with the lifestyle of a monk].”
“Abhi-ratena panāvuso, kiṃ duk-karan”ti?
“But what’s hard to do for someone who is satisfied [with the lifestyle of a monk]?”
“Abhi-ratena kho, āvuso, dhamm-ānu-dhammap-paṭipatti duk-karā”ti.
“When you’re satisfied, it’s hard to practice The Dharma in line with The Dharma [at a high skill level, doing the fourth frame of satipaṭṭhāna, Dhamma-anu-passana, with fourth jhāna level of quality].”
“Kīvaciraṃ panāvuso, dhamm-ānu-dhammap-paṭipanno bhikkhu arahaṃ assā”ti?
“But if a monk practices in line with The Dharma [at a high skill level], will it take them long to become a perfected one, [an Arahant]?”
“Na-ciraṃ, āvuso”ti.
“Not long, friend.”

(commentary by frankk)

SN 38.16 and SN 39.16 are the same, just a different wanderer asking the same question. When the suttas are redundant like this, it’s making a point that many different wanderers tend to ask the same question, so it’s not an outlier, not a special case, not unusual, i.e. we shouldn’t make an erroneous assumption that some unique suttas are a special case for a special situation, rather than a general teaching addressed to a general audience.

* note that according to Vism., their redefined ‘jhāna’ VRJ👻🥶, is so difficult to do that only 1 in a million monks can achieve on average. If that were the case, you would certainly expect that to make an appearance in this sutta.

* being satisfied [with the lifestyle of a monk renouncing all worldly pleasures], is the primary driver for first jhāna, deriving pleasure from skillful wholesome pleasures based on renunciation, rather than worldly pleasures that are addictive and unsustainable. Like many other suttas, this suggest that the Buddha expected happy monks would easily develop some level of proficiency with at least first jhāna. So the difficulty with first jhāna is in being content with simplicity and an ethical lifestyle, rather than requiring a superhuman level of samatha that LBT redefines as ‘jhāna’.

* cross referencing with MN 64, we know it’s impossible to attain arahantship or non-return without at least first jhāna. We know the Buddha expected even novice monks to attain at least mediocre first jhāna. Those who are satisfied with the holy life can easily do the mental part of first jhāna, those who don’t would disrobe.

* As for stream entry and once-returner, the difficulty of that would seem to sandwiched somewhere between what this sutta says for going forth, and arahantship.

* So putting together these bits, we can deduce practicing in line with Dharma implies doing it at fourth jhāna quality level in the context of this sutta.

* the contrast between being satisfied with living the holy life, and the difficulty of practicing Dharma in line with the Dharma, is likely referring to the fact that the Buddha, expected on average monks to have some proficiency in the first three jhānas (pleasant abiding in all 4 postures, partial jhāna), and that one could be complacent in that happiness and not assiduously (a-p-pamāda 🐘🐾‍) strive for arahantship with 4sp🐘 done at fourth Jhāna level of quality. That kind of complacency is explained by Mahā Kaccana as being stuck internally [in jhāna], and in SN 55, the Buddha says he did not want to teach about stream entry because he was concerned with his disciples being negligent (pamāda) rather than assiduously (a-p-pamāda 🐘🐾‍) striving for arahantship.

SN 38.16 FLIPT style of translation for pāḷi learners

“Kiṃ nu kho, āvuso sāriputta,
"What ** indeed, friend sāriputta,
imasmiṃ dhamma-vinaye duk-karan”ti?
(in) this dhamma-(and)-discipline (is) difficult-(to)-do?"
“Pabbajjā kho, āvuso,
"[Leaving the home life and] taking-ordination indeed, friend,
imasmiṃ dhamma-vinaye duk-karā”ti.
(in) this dhamma-(and)-discipline (is) difficult-(to)-do.
“Pabbajitena pan-āvuso,
“(for) one-ordained ***-,friend,
kiṃ duk-karan”ti?
what (is) difficult-(to) do?”
“Pabbajitena kho, āvuso,
“(for) one-ordained ***, friend,
Abhi-rati duk-karā”ti.
Abundant-delight [in that lifestyle] (is) difficult-(to)-do.”
“Abhi-ratena pan-āvuso,
“(for) one-abundantly-delighted ***-,friend,
kiṃ duk-karan”ti?
what (is) difficult-(to) do?”
“Abhi-ratena kho, āvuso,
“(for) one-abundantly-delighted ***-,friend,
Dhammā-nu-dhammap-paṭi-patti duk-karā”ti.
{practice in accordance with}-dhamma (is) difficult-(to) do
“Kīva-ciraṃ pan-āvuso,
“how-long, ***-friend,
Dhammā-nu-dhammap-paṭi-panno
(in) {practicing in accordance with}-dhamma,
bhikkhu arahaṃ assā”ti?
(that a) monk {attains} arahantship?”
“Na-ciraṃ, āvuso”ti.
“Not-long, friend.”


Related

links to many suttas here -> (j1🌘 easy) first jhāna is easier than you think



“accharā-saṅghāt-amattampi ce, bhikkhave,
"{Monks}, (if), for the amount of time it takes to snap-the-fingers,
bhikkhu mettā-cittaṃ āsevati;
a-monk {does} Friendly-kindness-(with the)-mind
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave —
this is-called, ********* -
‘bhikkhu arittaj-jhāno viharati
'a-monk not-devoid-(of)-jhāna (he) abides (in).
satthu-sāsana-karo
{he carries out} the-teachers-dispensation-****,
ovāda-pati-karo,
{he carries out} the-advice,
a-moghaṃ raṭṭha-piṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’.
not-(in)-futility (is the) country's-almsfood (that he) eats.'
ko pana vādo ye naṃ bahulī-karontī”ti!
how much-more I-say (of) he *** (that) abundantly-practices (it)!"

“accharā-saṅghāt-amattampi ce, bhikkhave,
"{Monks}, (if), for the amount of time it takes to snap-the-fingers,
bhikkhu mettā-cittaṃ bhāveti;
a-monk {develops} Friendly-kindness-(with the)-mind;
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave —
this is-called, ********* -
‘bhikkhu arittaj-jhāno viharati
'a-monk not-devoid-(of)-jhāna (he) abides (in).
satthu-sāsana-karo
{he carries out} the-teachers-dispensation-****,
ovāda-pati-karo,
{he carries out} the-advice,
a-moghaṃ raṭṭha-piṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’.
not-(in)-futility (is the) country's-almsfood (that he) eats.'
ko pana vādo ye naṃ bahulī-karontī”ti!
how much-more I-say (of) he *** (that) abundantly-practices (it)!"


Saturday, March 26, 2022

🔗📝notes related to proper way of eating

Internal

4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 →   eating 🍲🍴🥣: proper way of eating



External

AN 3.16 mantra: eat to live, don't live to eat


relationship between subduing kāma-c-chanda and eating

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2022/03/overcoming-sexual-desire-in.html

 


🔗📝notes related to Jhāna force and J.A.S.I. effect

Internal

4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → 

J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy'): ”Jhānic Automatic Spinal Inflation”

Jhāna-constipation ⛜🌊: A condition where one is practicing the method of attaining Jhāna correctly, but energy channels are partially blocked.

jhāna force, and equation‍: quantitative analysis of jhānic force.


📖 Jhāna Passaddhi Baselines: How to use sati and SN 47.8 to improve your Jhāna.




External

If I knew this 30 years ago, I would have accomplished meditation in less than 3 years


Advanced, powerful yet easy way to amplify Jhānic force [long term]: 👐JASI ("Jazzy") hands (and feet)










definition: warm fuzzies, warm and fuzzy feeling, 20th century idioms to describe pīti and/or pamojja, and the physical sukha that result

 

Definition of warm fuzzies: feelings of happiness, contentment, or sentimentality


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warm%20fuzzies#h1

warm fuzzies: plural noun


Definition of warm fuzzies: feelings of happiness, contentment, or sentimentality

example: got warm fuzzies from the good news



Synonyms

    beatitude, blessedness, bliss, blissfulness, felicity, gladness, happiness, joy


Antonyms

    calamity, ill-being, misery, sadness, unhappiness, wretchedness


First Known Use of warm fuzzies: 1981, in the meaning defined above




warm and fuzzy (urban dictionary)

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=warm%20and%20fuzzy
to have an extremely happy feeling about the girl or guy that you like or love.
girl: Wow you're really attractive
Guy: that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

guy: hey i really really like you
girl: thanks, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy



SN 36.31



Origin of 'warm fuzzy', etymology


I have a pretty good guess.
Like  'warm fuzzies' is literally describing pleasant physical sensations in the body, such as in first jhāna or second jhāna (as nirsa misa pīti [mental] that causes nira misa pleasant sukha to arise). 

Whereas the worldly version of 'warm fuzzy', such as the dictionary examples of 'hearing good news' or 'seeing a girl you like', that would be the 'wrong jhāna', the type of jhāna based on 5 hindrances, rather than produced by thoughts in line with skillful Dharmas. Yet the resulting physical sensations of sa-misa pīti and sukha, feel the same since it's just pleasure chemicals in the brain whether the source of the pleasure was skillful Dharma thoughts such as good will, or unskillful lustful thoughts.


Another way to look at is through the Jhāna force equation

jhāna force, and equation‍: quantitative analysis of jhānic force.

Jhānic force pushes a current of heat, energy, and vibrations throughout the body, pervading every cell. And what is heat and vibrations tuned to a comfortable temperature? 

Warm fuzzies. ⏹️





AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: full pāḷi + english translations, detailed book marks show where vipassana is done simultaneously with 4 jhānas

 All links below point to suttas on lucid24.org



MN 64



MN 111



AN 9.36






Friday, March 25, 2022

AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here?


What these 3 suttas have in common, AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111,

is the very interesting feature of explicitly describing doing vipassana, while one is in the jhāna and the first 3 formless attainments.


LBT (late buddhist text) apologists, as well as Sujato, Brahm, claim that the suttas describe a jhāna where one enters a disembodied, frozen state, where vipassana is impossible until one emerges from that 'jhāna'. 


Since Sujato translated all the suttas, let's take a look at what he translated, and how it supports his interpretation of 'jhāna'. 



AN 9.36: Jhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net)

‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’‘Paṭhamampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ.That’s what I said, but why did I say it?Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption.Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.They contemplate the phenomena there—included in form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness—as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.So yadeva tattha hoti rūpagataṁ vedanāgataṁ saññāgataṁ saṅkhāragataṁ viññāṇagataṁ, te dhamme aniccato dukkhato rogato gaṇḍato sallato aghato ābādhato parato palokato suññato anattato samanupassati.They turn their mind away from those things,So tehi dhammehi cittaṁ paṭivāpeti. Variant: paṭivāpeti → patiṭṭhāpeti (sya-all); paṭipādeti (mr)and apply it to the deathless:So tehi dhammehi cittaṁ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṁ upasaṁharati: Variant: paṭivāpetvā → patiṭṭhāpetvā (sya-all); paṭipādetvā (mr)‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbū­pa­dhi­­paṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements.So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṁ khayaṁ pāpuṇāti.If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.No ce āsavānaṁ khayaṁ pāpuṇāti, teneva dhammarāgena tāya dhammanandiyā pañcannaṁ orambhāgiyānaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā opapātiko hoti tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā.





Frankk comment:


For some reason, Sujato abbreviated the first jhāna formula above, leaving out vitakka and vicāra (what he translates as 'placing the mind and keeping it connected', without adding any ellipses or any indication there is elided text. This may be an innocent error, perhaps for stylistic reasons.

The other word I highlighted, "form", how does Sujato's first jhāna contemplate the aggregate of rūpa (form), if the mind is supposedly in a disembodied jhāna where it can't perceive the body or form? 


Now the rest of AN 9.36 heavily elides the same pattern from first jhāna (doing vipassana attaining arahantship while in jhāna): 



‘The second absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.’ …Dutiyampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya …pe…

‘The third absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.’ …tatiyampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya …pe…

‘The fourth absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements.’ …‘catutthampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ


Ok, note above that Sujato uses ellipses (the 3 dots) to indicate abbreviated text, yet the first jhāna formula above, he did not, so it's not stylistic objections to having  dot dot dot (....) in his translation. He intentionally translated an abbreviated first jhāna omitting vitakka and vicāra, which conveniently avoids showing the text where one supposedly has their mind "placed and connected" [to a jhāna kasina or nimitta] yet is somehow able to do vipassana in first jhāna according to the sutta. 


Since the remaining jhāna are heavily abbreviated, I'm going to show a full version of AN 9.36's second jhāna, using my translation from pāli, and reinserting Sujato's second jhāna formula. Why? Because doing vipassana while in second jhāna is even more incoherent than in first jhāna, when you're supposedly in a disembodied frozen state where you haven't placed the mind and "kept it connected" [to a kasina ]. 


2nd Jhāna
dutiyampāhaṃ, bhikkhave, jhānaṃ
second, *********, jhāna
nissāya āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmi;
(is) necessary (for the) asinine-influences (to be) destroyed. (This) I say.
’ti,
iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ.
thus indeed this was-said.
kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?
what caused (this to be) said?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
here, monks, a monk (is) (doing second jhāna) like this:
STED Jhāna
Vitakka-vicārānaṃ vūpasamā
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, 
ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ
they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence,
cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ
 and unified mind, 
a-vitakkaṃ a-vicāraṃ
without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
samādhi-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ

dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

(doing vipassana while in jhana, can realize Nirvana)

So yadeva tattha hoti
What ever [dharma] there are
rūpagataṃ
connected to – form
vedanāgataṃ
connected to – feelings
saññāgataṃ
connected to – perception
Saṅ-khāragataṃ
connected to – co-activities
viññāṇagataṃ,
connected to – consciousness,
te dhamme
those dharmas (are)
a-niccato dukkhato
(1) im-permanent, (2) pain-&-suffering,
rogato gaṇḍato
(3) diseased, (4) an abscess,
sallato aghato
(5) a dart, (6) misery,
ābādhato parato
(7) an affliction, (8) alien,
palokato suññato
(9) falling apart, (10) empty,
anattato
(11) not-self,
Sam-anu-passati.
{He} continuously-sees [dharma in those 11 ways].
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpeti.
he, (in regard to) those dharmas, (his) mind turns-away.
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā
he, (in regard to) those dharmas, (his) mind having-turned-away,
A-matāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati:
(to the) death-less element (his) mind inclines:
‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ
This (is) peace, this (is) exquisite —
yadidaṃ
that is,
Sabba-saṅ-khāra-samatho
All-co-activities-stilled.
Sabb—ūpadhi-paṭinissaggo
All-acquisitions-relinquished.
Taṇhāk-khayo
Craving-destroyed.
Vi-rāgo
Dis-passion.
nirodho
cessation.
nibbānan’
Nirvana.
ti.
.”

(and with that they either become Arahant or Nonreturner)


So how does Sujato do vipassana from his second jhāna?


So how does Sujato do vipassana from his second jhāna if his mind is in a disembodied, frozen state, and not only is linguistic thought not possible, but his mind is supposedly in a "unified state... without placing the mind and keeping it connected", and yet the sutta shows the meditator then contemplate the five aggregates and eleven characteristics. Don't you need to "move your mind" and "re-place the mind" to contemplate aggregates?

How do you do that? How is one disembodied with mind frozen, but according to AN 9.36, MN 64, one can contemplate the emptiness of the 5 aggregates WHILE in jhāna, and realize nonreturn or arahantship? 

In Sujato's translation where he translates along with the elided pāli, the impossibility of the situation in second jhāna isn't obvious until you fill in the details and actually read it out loud. 

Why do Ajahn Brahm and Sujato remain silent on this? 

Why do their devotees continue to believe their interpretation of jhāna, which clearly contradict AN 9.36, MN 111, and MN 64?  


Wouldn't a sensible devotee ask their teacher to explain the incoherence of their jhāna and settle their doubts, with a public and detailed answer?  


(In response, sound of crickets chirping, also known as dead silence)



Still waiting for someone to explain that contradiction from Ajahn Brahm, Sujato, and Visuddhimagga, 
Going on about 1500 years now.



Forum Discussion


https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistTexts/comments/tonp3q/an_936_mn_64_mn_111_how_does_ajahn_brahm_and/i27832o/?context=3

Having relied on Bhante Gunaratana's explanation of Jhana, I had not been very concerned about Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato. So to understand frankk's criticism, just reviewed a talk by Bhanta Sujato where he quotes Aj Brahm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjBzABP8tCg starting around 38.25 He said,

"Developing balance of vipassana and samatha will make the jhana more robust when it arises ... I understand ekaggata one pointedness to mean (1) there is only mano-viññāna, the five external viññānas have ceased. (2) object stays the same, not shifting from one object to another. (3) there is not a sense of separation between the observing consciousness and the actual object itself. In first Jhana, there is a subtle movement of the mind, what Aj Brahm calls wobbling of the mind. That's what is called vittakka-vicāra. Mind has come together with the object, but because it is still close to ordinary consciousness, close to the world of the five senses, it's still not completely confident in that. Mind is still pushing on to the object a little bit. Doesn't want to let go of it. There is a residual force there. When the mind pushes, then the object recedes a little bit. Then the mind comes in and pushes on to it again and the mind recedes a little bit. It doesn't break the one pointedness, it's like massaging the object. Aj Brahm describes it as like a tennis ball, perfectly round and smooth but a bit fuzzy around the edges and compresses if you press it. Second jhana characterized by complete one pointedness, internal confidence and clarity. Ajahn Brahm describes it as being like a bowling ball, completely round and defined and there's no ambiguity at all. Rapture and bliss are two different terms for the emotional tone of the experience. Compared to drinking a glass of champagne, the fizziness is the rapture (pīti). The richness or sweetness of it is the bliss (sukha). When the pīti is experienced as too much agitation it fades away, leaving tranquility and bliss. The emotional response changes, no more fizz. etc. etc."

I heard that there is disagreement about the cessation of the five external viññānas. But that does not have to signify a "frozen disembodied state" where vipassana cannot occur. One would still experience the factors of mentality. What Bhante Sujato describes is quite a riff ... but does not sound at all frozen!

When the translator puts ellipses where the pali text has peyyala, that would not be mis-representing the Dhamma. It's just a style choice. The reader should fill in the missing phrases according to standard formulas. In Sri Lankan style of recitation, they like to fill in all the peyyala while the Thai monks read it just as written. I noticed this difference at the International Tipitaka Recitation events that have been organized over the past few years. Filling in the peyyalas does make the sutta recitations have more impact.

I am not trying to pick a quarrel here, but rather to fairly understand what Brahm-Sujato are claiming, to advance the conversation. Next I'll review frankk's critique, which seem to be found in several posts with the phrase "LBT redefinition of jhāna".

Frank responds:

Thanks for finding and transcribing that! Notice Sujato is quoting Ajahn Brahm, who came 2500 years after the Buddha. He doesn't actually quote the Buddha in the suttas to support that interpretation of 'jhāna'. The devotee of Sujato should be asking, why is that? Why is it someone who claims to be EBT, translated all the suttas into English, can't seem to find EBT quotes to support his interpretation?