The Physics of Jhāna: from jhānic impotence, to jhānic omnipotence

What I wrote already

Jhāna-constipation ⛜🌊: A condition where one is practicing the method of attaining Jhāna correctly, but energy channels are partially blocked.

jhāna force, and equation‍: quantitative analysis of jhānic force.

J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy') effect: ”Jhānic Automatic Spinal Inflation”: this is what you feel when the jhāna force is propogating through the space of the entire physical body. 

🌟PIE: 🌟PIE = (P)recious (I)nternal (E)nergy. 

If you maintain genuine celibacy (not even thoughts of lust), mostly dwell in noble silence (2nd jhāna or better), minimizing talking and other activities that drain PIE, 

then your jhāna battery charges and fills with PIE, and the jhānic force gets stronger.

 Adding a few more explanations to tie things all together.

Sexual impotence and jhānic impotence share a root cause. 

Too much sexual activities that drain the PIE, causing a PIE deficit.

People can also drain PIE enormously with recreational drugs and intoxicants, alcohol, staying up all night and playing video games, partying, singing, etc. 

jhānic impotence:  

This is a state far worse than jhāna constipation. With Jhāna constipation, jhāna force is strong but energy blockages are not dissolved yet, and you feel tight knots and various kinds of discomfort and even sharp pain when you're doing jhāna meditation properly.

With jhāna impotence, the jhāna force is weak, PIE is weak, like when a battery has weak voltage and low current. Vital functions of the body don't work properly.   

If one does jhāna meditation correctly while in jhāna impotent state with low jhāna force, PIE deficit, you're likely to experience various physical pains, psychosis, mental illness.

Even young kids who are overly sexually active can get into this state. It's probably a lot more common now a days with high speed internet, easy access to rich media porn, dating apps to hook up with other promiscuous kids. 

When you hear about really disastrous cases of meditation causing extremely negative effects (like psychosis)  in people meditating correctly, odds are high they are in a state of jhānic impotence, low energy state with a PIE deficit. 

Of course modern medical "experts" would disagree, saying that regular sexual activity (including daily masturbation) is healthy and not a cause of psychosis.  

Then they blame the meditation as the cause of the psychosis.

If you want to get out of sexual impotence or jhāna impotence, then go celibate. Eat healthy, get at least an hour or two a day of moderate to moderately vigorous physical exercise, and you will recover from this eventually. 

If you listen to modern medical "experts", you'll take medications that may alleviate some symptoms of psychosis, you will never get truly better.  

The real problems in most cases are a PIE deficit and a weak jhānic force that can't distribute the PIE everywhere in the body. 

the physics of jhāna

The optimal posture to maximize jhānic force is sitting in full lotus. 

But you get a fraction of full jhānic force in any posture with proper training.

As a rough estimate, if full lotus gets you 100% of jhānic force,

standing could get you 70%

lying down could get you 70-100%,

walking, taiji quan can get you 50%,

As long as the jhānic force is running at a level beyond a normal non-jhāna meditator doing ordinary physical activities, you'll get a net gain in PIE accumulating daily, and gradual increase in jhānic force leading to increasing higher states of jhāna, better health, better immune system, increasingly sharper mind, better memory, better mental faculties.

When you're in jhāna, you feel tangible forces coarsing through every cell of your physical body.

Jhānic force is trying to constantly course through all the interconnected loops of energy in the body, dissolving any blockages along the way gradually.

jhāna equilibrium

 The jhānic force running everywhere is balancing the 4 elements of the body (solidity, heat, liquidity, wind force). When it's in proper balance, it's fourth jhāna, a state of jhāna equilibrium. 

How are the first three jhānas not in equilibrium?

first jhāna

The first jhāna is more dominant in solidity, hardness, like ice (solid form of water).

You get surges of heat and jhānic force melting the hard ice into water, but the surges are both interrupted and triggered by vitakka and vicāra, thinking and evaluation with mental talk, verbal thoughts unspoken. 

In other words, V&V used skillfully is what drives first jhāna, but the extraneous energy expenditure of first jhāna V&V prevents the strong force of second jhāna.

second jhāna

second jhāna, you've learned to keep the foot on the pedal to the metal, the jhānic force is unadulterdated, not surging on and off interrupted by V&V. 

The feeling of liquidity is more dominant here of the four elements. 

Wind force (jhānic force) and heat have melted most of the ice in your body into water, the runs up from the base of your spine up your back to the top of your head, and feels just like the jhāna simile says, like you're sitting in a lake with your butt on the spring that forcefully feeds jets of hot water from the bottom of the lake. 

It feels like a jacuzzi where you're sitting on the jets.

If you got a full second jhāna going, and your microcosmic orbit opened up, from the top of the head the river of gushing spring water goes down your face, chest, feeding into the belly area. 

third jhāna

Third jhāna marks a stage much closer to jhānic equilibrium for 4 elements in balanced harmony. 

What's calmer here, compared to second jhāna?

Physically, second jhāna force and heat melted all the ice and liquified the body, strong currents of hydraulic force distributing the liquified state everywhere.

So now the physical mostly cuts off, the force that remains just gives you subtle vibrations of physical pleasure, as opposed to the strong hydraulic raging rivers from second jhāna. 

The body is all water, the water is calm and still.

Mentally there is more pacification because Pīti, mental joy, is dropped. That is, any extraneous energy needed to cause mental joy is dropped. For example as an analogy, you hear a funny joke, second jhāna is like you're laughing out loud body shaking, third jhāna is you're just smiling, body is calm but you have warm fuzzy sensations.

As jhānic force is sublimating four elements into a higher energetic state of PIE, 

this manifests as heat element evaporating water into empty space and visible light.

If you have enough PIE, you perceive visible light maybe like the size of a button around the middle of your head, white color, or blue color, or red, or grey. 

That is what the white, blue, red lotus are alluding to in the pond with still clear water in third jhāna.

fourth jhāna

From second jhāna on, once you know how to get mental and physical tension out of the way, it's like you're flooring the pedal to the metal on your car accelerator, and someone with no jhāna or anti-jhāna has their foot stomping on the brakes instead of the accelerator.

Once you know how to do second jhāna, you automatically will gradually move to third and fourth jhāna if you stay with the program being celibate, noble silence, keeping wasteful usage of PIE to absolute minimum.

Fourth jhāna, as jhānic force continues to improve the equilibrium and harmony of the 4 elements, visible light and space (feeling of emptiness of hardness element) continue to increase.

This is why the fourth jhāna simile is a man covered completely with a white cloth. 

It literally is like that.

Try it out. 

Cover yourself with a large white cotton cloth.

Look  through the cross patterns of the  threads of the white cloth, it's like transparent white that you can see through.

The small button of light from third jhāna? If you keep doing the work of jhāna, letting the jhānic force increase and PIE accumulate day by day, the light gets bigger, stronger, brighter.

Your body gets lighter (weight, not visible light), even you step on the scale you still weigh the same as you did before (in force pounds, kilos), you somehow feel much lighter weight, and you feel levitation is possible someday.

As you get more and brighter light, your mind gets sharper and more clear, your memory gets better.

Your bullshit detector is mighty.

You can discern corrupted dhamma from proper dhamma.

You're not fooled by charismatic teachers who talk eloquently but don't teach or do the genuine Buddha's jhāna. 

And you're definitely not impressed by smart people with impressive credentials and published works but no actual jhāna experience.

from jhānic impotence, to jhānic omnipotence

If you develop fourth jhāna to the point of imperturbable fourth jhāna, equivalent to well developed iddhipada, 

then the 3 higher knowledges or  all 6 knowledges are within reach.

If you attain the 6th knowledge, the destruction of asinine inclinations, the attainment of arahantship, then you've reached jhānic omnipotence.

who can you trust?

 This is just one benchmark (for USA adult citizens), but it does tell you something useful, especially when there's a long history.

I hadn't checked my credit rating for many years, but now it's common for many banks to give free credit reports, with 'soft' inquiries that don't lower your credit rating.

(hard inquiries, for example getting a big loan from the bank, will lower your credit score).

Why is my current debt only "very good" and not "exceptional"?

Because you have to have activity, you have to have debt and owe money and show repayment history to get the highest score.

Besides monthly credit card usage, which I pay off the full amount every month, which is essentially temporary petty cash money that I pay off instantly, I have a large savings (for my lifestyle) and zero debt. I owe nothing to no one (in long term debt beyond one month credit card cycles). 

If I wanted a better credit score in this category, one way to do it is get a 30 year mortgage  on a house and pay it off the monthly installments on time. 

AN 10.72 and KN Ud 3.3 smoking out the gophers, you can hear sounds in the four jhānas

 

KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them

KN Ud 3.3 if they could hear, buddha would have responded to Ānanda talking to him.

♦ tatiyampi kho āyasmā ānando abhikkantāya rattiyā, nikkhante pacchime yāme, uddhaste aruṇe, nandimukhiyā rattiyā uṭṭhāyāsanā ekaṃsaṃ uttarāsaṅgaṃ karitvā yena bhagavā tenañjaliṃ paṇāmetvā bhagavantaṃ etadavoca — “abhikkantā, bhante, ratti; nikkhanto pacchimo yāmo; uddhasto aruṇo; nandimukhī ratti; ciranisinnā āgantukā bhikkhū; paṭisammodatu, bhante, bhagavā, āgantukehi bhikkhūhī”ti.	Then a third time, when the night was far advanced, at the end of the last watch, as dawn was approaching and the face of the night was beaming, Ven. Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, stood facing the Blessed One, paying homage to him with his hands placed palm-to-palm over his heart, and said to him, “The night, lord, is far advanced. The last watch has ended. Dawn is approaching and the face of the night is beaming. The visiting monks have been sitting here a long time. May the Blessed One greet them.”
♦ atha kho bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhahitvā āyasmantaṃ ānandaṃ āmantesi — “sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, jāneyyāsi ettakampi te nappaṭibhāseyya VAR . ahañca, ānanda, imāni ca pañca bhikkhusatāni sabbeva āneñjasamādhinā nisīdimhā”ti.	Then the Blessed One, emerging from his imperturbable concentration, said to Ven. Ānanda, “Ānanda, if you had known, not even that much would have occurred to you (to say).1 I, along with all 500 of these monks, have been sitting in imperturbable concentration.”

Summary of KN Ud 3.3:

This sutta is closely related to AN 10.72 sutta on sound being a thorn to the four jhānas.

It even ends with the udāna verse about 3 thorns ended by an arahant,

The sutta starts with monks making very loud noises and the Buddha being disturbed by the noise, implying that the Buddha was experiencing sound as thorns in the 4 jhānas, just as in AN 10.72 the merchants in their carriages making a loud noise traveling.

The Buddha sends away the 500 noisy monks.

Those 500 monks meditate diligently, and all attain the 3 higher knowledges and imperturbable formless attainments.

The Buddha summons those monks.

Those 500 monks notice that the Buddha is in imperturbable samādhi, and sit down and also enter imperturbable samādhi.

Ānanda goes to the Buddha to announce the arrival of the 500 monks, but the Buddha doesn’t hear him and doesn’t respond.

Ānanda asks a few more times, over the course of the night (about a 4 hour period).

Same results, Buddha doesn’t respond.

Then next morning, the Buddha tells Ānanda, “if you had known that I and the 500 monks were in formless samādhi, you would not have talked to me expecting me to hear and respond to you.”

So to reiterate the two important points:

1. earlier when the 500 monks were not yet arahants, they were noisy and disturbing the Buddha with the noise. Since the Buddha is always in suññata or samādhi (4 jhānas can be a mode of suññata), then the Buddha would obviously be in one of the four jhānas when he heard the monks making loud noises.

2. at the end of the sutta when the Buddha and the 500 monks are in imperturbable samādhi and can not hear Ānanda talking to them, they are in the formless attainments and can not hear sounds. This is why AN 10.72 lists four jhānas as having sound be a thorn, but omits the 4 formless attainments.

3. Important implication: The fact that Ānanda saw the Buddha sitting quietly over the 4 hours entire night, and several times tried to talk to him, means that Ānanda generally expects the Buddha not to be in imperturbable samādhi. Instead, Buddha would typically be in four jhānas the majority or at least a good portion of the typical nightly four hour period. Otherwise Ānanda wouldn’t try to talk to him!

4. Deduction: the imperturbable samādhi here must be the formless attainments, rather than 4th jhāna, since they couldn’t hear Ānanda talking to them.

Forum discussion

Re: AN 10.72 and KN Ud 3.3 smoking out the gophers, you can hear sounds in the four jhānas

BrokenBones wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:25 am

It would be interesting to see how the commentaries explain ... Why Ananda observing the Buddha in meditation expected the Buddha to hear him.

Post by frank k » Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:28 am
My bet is all you'll hear is crickets chirping [sound of silence] from the classical Theravada crowd.
If someone had divine eye and mind reading, I would guess this is the thought process going on in the mind of 'classical' theravadin:

Hmm. Good point. Since one can not hear in [vism. redefined] jhāna, and whether the Buddha was in 4 jhānas or first 3 formless attainments,
either way the Buddha wouldn't be able to hear Ananda.
So why did Ananda ask Buddha several times over a 4 hour period and expected to hear a response from the Buddha?
Therefore the Buddha must have been in a samādhi lower than first jhāna.
But other passages say the Buddha was always in samādhi or suññata (can be any of 4 jhānas, formless, or animitta samādhi).
But if Buddha was just in ordinary below first jhāna samādhi, then that's the same as an ordinary worldling with no jhāna.
Then why would the Buddha point out that he is always in samādhi is it's the same ordinary person's samādhi (below first jhāna)? It doesn't seem a noteworthy thing to mention (MN 36).
But this would still beg the question why Ananda expected the Buddha to respond while in deep meditation.

Well, this contradiction is uncomfortable.
I can't believe the Classical Maha vihara Theravadins could be wrong or contradict the Buddha.
So I'm just going to forget this thread and this sutta ever happened.

cognitive dissonance wins!

I'm just going to quietly disappear and hope the thread goes away.
Or, I'm going to ad hominem Frank and try to shift the focus to Frank is disrespectful to Ajahn Brahm and Sujato and Vism., or get him banned from the forum.
And hope people stop paying attention to or even notice the blatant contradictions in Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of jhāna and the Buddha's jhāna.

tips on memorizing sutta passages

Re: The Dhamma Wheel Memorization Challenge

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:03 am
In 2022 I started memorizng parayana vagga of Snp (sutta nipāta) in pāli.
16 short suttas from 16 brahman jhāna meditators on the way to nirvana.

https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-snp/single/index.html#s5.2


The most important ones of the 16, I memorized in their entirety already.
The other ones, I start with just memorizing the most important part, just a few lines, from that sutta.
That is, all 16 suttas I have at least a few lines memorized, and I recite what I've memorized daily and add a little bit each day.

So roughly, I've probably memorized in raw word count more than 50% of the total.

Roughly half of each sutta, the Buddha is giving an answer and the other half the guy is asking questions.
So I prioritize the memorizing with the Buddha's answers first (contains the valuable and profound parts).
The last things I memorize will be the questioner's verses.

But I expect to have the project completed in a few months.

Takes about 15min daily to chant everything I've memroized so far, expect total when complete, to be about 20-25min chanting full speed fluent pali.

Once it's firmly ingrained in my memory, I'll chant it once or twice a week.



Re: The Dhamma Wheel Memorization Challenge

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:16 am
Just want to encourage those of you, I found the most helpful motivation is the memorize the Dhamma that is most important, rather than arbitrarily picking a sutta and just having an obsessive compulsion to memorize the 'complete' sutta in its entirety.
if you're not skilled in memorizing yet, then it's quite tedious and difficult and hard to generate motivation to memorize the parts of the sutta that are just trivial narrative elements with no dharmic content.

But I find it highly motivating to memorize the sections that are important, because each time you recite it, you're getting the benefit of positive reinforcement right there, getting the value of hearing that Dhamma right there.

As another example, I never could memorize the ratana sutta or mangala sutta, because they don't contain any actual nitty gritty instructions on how to get to nirvana. They play like those armed military commericials on t.v. ("Be, all that you can be, in the U.S. Army") touting how great Buddhism is, without telling you the actual practice in detail.
So I put my efforts first in memorizing the important practice details, such as here:
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ragon.html

Of course if you enjoy the ratana or mangala sutta becuase it has some inspirational value, then it's worthwhile for you to memorize it.
It helps with pīti awakening factor, the mental joy to feeds first jhāna.

My point is for most people, memorizing skill is difficult so you really want to make each word count. Where you get the most bang for the buck and can reap the benefits of the repetitive daily recitation right away.





Re: The Dhamma Wheel Memorization Challenge

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:23 am
Prioritize!
For example, in this sutta:
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-snp/single/index.html#5.16

I first memorized the 2 most important lines.

“Suññato lokaṁ avekkhassu,
“Look upon the world as empty,
Mogharāja sadā sato;
Mogharājā, ever rememberful.


Then a few weeks later, I added the next two important lines:
Attānudiṭṭhiṁ ūhacca,
Having uprooted the view of self,
Evaṁ maccutaro siyā;
you may thus cross over death.


Then over the next month, I finished memorize the rest of the Buddha's talking portion,
THEN I worked on memorizing the inquisitor portion.

But since you're reciting what you've memorized so far everyday, this way the most important part of the sutta gets the most play time, the most repetition.

If you just decide to memorize the sutta in its entirety and you went in order, then you'd spend most of your time reciting the first two lines:

“Dvāhaṁ sakkaṁ apucchissaṁ,
“Twice I have asked the Sakyan,”
(iccāyasmā mogharājā)
said Venerable Mogharājā,
Na me byākāsi cakkhumā;
“but you haven’t answered me, O Seer.
Yāvatatiyañca devīsi,
I have heard that the divine hermit

which is just a narrative detail, and not the juicy important dhamma that I memorized first:

“Suññato lokaṁ avekkhassu,
“Look upon the world as empty,
Mogharāja sadā sato;
Mogharājā, ever rememberful.

another analogy for hearing sound in jhāna, like driving on autobahn at superspeed and someone driving at ordinary speed cuts in front of you

Re: Jhana Thorn

Post by frank k » Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:04 am
Have you ever been pricked by a thorn?
It's a different sensation than for example brushing your hand against an unexpected object.
It's a more accute, sharper sensation.

You can hear sounds in all four jhānas.
All 6 senses are operative in all four jhānas.
That's what it means to be percipient of internal rūpa. (See 8 vimokkha, 8 abhibhayatana, etc.)

AN 10.72 says that sound is a thorn in all 4 jhānas, not just the first one.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html


The experience of sound in first jhāna is different than fourth jhāna.
But even the experience of sound in any jhāna is going to vary depending on our physical condition, how charged up your jhāna battery is.
For example, someone who has eaten a nutritious and balanced diet to capacity, is well rested, is much more resistant to stress and pressure than
someone who is starving, sleep deprived, irritable.

Jhāna is like you're on a 5 lane freeway in rush hour, all the ordinary people are in rush hour traffic driving at 10% of their maximum speed limit.
The jhāna meditators are in the carpool fast lane, going 100% of their speed limit.
Sound being a thorn in jhāna, is like the jhāna driver in the fast lane, suddenly has an ordinary driver going 10% of the max speed cut into the jhāna fast lane in front of them,
and then the jhāna driver has to slam on the brakes to not ram into the slow driver cutting in.
That's kind of how it feels like when sound hits you in jhāna, it's like your body suddenly has gears locked up for a moment, it's a strange sensation and can be accutely painful.
But if your jhāna battery is charged up really high, the less stessful that thorn feels.
It varies according to your health and the charge capacity of your jhāna battery.

Imperturbable fourth jhāna you can hear sound, and it may feel strange but not painful like a thorn.
You can even hear super loud sounds like sudden thunder that came out of nowhere and it won't scare you or cause painful sensations.

It's only in formless attainments where internal rūpa sensations, including ability to hear sounds or feel mosquito bites with the body, are disabled.

all the known sutta references to hearing sound in jhāna (and not in formless attainments) are here.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html

Re: Jhana Thorn

Post by frank k » Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:14 am
The reason I make the freeway analogy for jhāna,
is because when you go into jhāna, you can viscerally sense your body's currents of energy, those internal jhānic forces instantly ramp up to super speeds, causing your body to feel like it's being inflated like a balloon in some parts, or most parts,
kind of going on the autobahn and being able to driver even faster than the ordinary person's speed limit.

The body and mind in jhāna are operating at different energetic frequencies than ordinary consciousness.
Then when sound hits your ear,
it feels like the body suddenly has to slam on the brakes, shift into lower frequencies to process sound.

There's a reason the Buddha made the analogy of sound being a thorn in jhāna, because it literally can feel accutely painful like being pricked by a thorn.

If sound was an unsurmountable obstacle preventing one from entering jhāna, then you'd think the Buddha would make a more sensible simile, like sound is a gate or a moat that prevents entry into the fortress.

See "jazzy" effect:
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jasi/index.html
J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy')
JASI = Jhānic Automatic Spinal Inflation

Theravada taxonomy of heresy, funny

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

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Post by frank k » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:10 am

Ok Mumfie, where does this lie in the heresy scale?
Derivatives and commentaries of Buddha's original Dhamma (coming hundreds of years after the Buddha) which contain contradictions and incoherence?
Obviously the composers were sincere and didn't intend to contradict the Buddha, but they lie to themselves and insist not only are there no contradictions, but you can't understand the Buddha's original teachings without using their corrupt dictionary redefining many important terms.
The unorthodox call themselves the orthodox, and all others they call heretics.

Ontheway wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:31 am

robertk wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:51 pmYou could also add this:
The Expositor p.37

He who prohibits (the teaching of) Abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the Conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher’s knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one’ of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be ex- communicated, or admonished,’ Or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food.

This is a great point, robertk. Personally I have seen some monks teaching sermons yet without the knowledge of Abhidhamma, having difficulty in differentiating sammuti and paramattha.... And each of them contradicting one another with no consensus at all, and each of them claimed they knew better than the Theras in the past who relied on Pali Tipitaka and Atthakatha, by saying "....refering to the Nikayas" yet their understanding of the origin of Nikayas is so distorted. Another famous Malaysian Chinese monk named Dhammavuddho, while rejecting Abhidhamma & commentaries, introduced "soul" into Buddha's teachings. Some other even explained by adhering to modern scientific terms and gave no insight at all, mere jargons, and it even push even further away to the point of total confusion, though keep repeating the phrase "we follow Suttas". All these misguided people, can only verbally attack the great Theras in the past, not knowing that those Theras were actually Arahants (such as Ven. Moggaliputta Tissa Thera). As to why some layfollowers despise the great Theras in the past, I can only guess it is their jealousy, pride and foolishness. Much demerits has been accumulated by them. They can say whatever they want, as they preaching there is kammavipaka, yet the way they act is totally contradicting to what they say. Let see how they can endure the Vipakas.

What Bhaddantacariya Buddhaghosa Thera said is correct, those without Abhidhamma knowledge, that is, the ability to decipher the concepts of Sabhava, as well as both Sammuti and Paramattha, are not capable to give full exposition and analysis of the Dhamma, and hence couldn't differentiate between Dhamma and Adhamma in more detail ways, couldn't explain the meaning of Sassataditthi and Ucchedaditthi and they different from Anattavada of Lord Buddha in details. For the Lord Buddha, the Master is known as "Vibhajjavadi", the Analyser. And Abhidhamma is the best evidence to that name.

Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Mumfie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:48 am
Where does what lie on the heresy scale? That is, which part of your post is the heresy on whose gravity you wish me to venture an opinion?



Post by frank k » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:04 am
There's a number of things referenced in my post that I believe are heresy worthy.

On a different topic, here's a great bit from Emo Phillips on religion.
If the video player not showing up yet,
It's a 3Mb download, 1.5 min viewing pleasure (also thought provocative, insightful, hilarious).


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NoRPo1 ... share_link