Vimuttimagga by Ven. Nyanatusita is now available as a free eBook

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Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?

Post by Assaji » Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:36 am
Hi Dhamma friends,

The new translation of the Vimuttimagga by Ven. Nyanatusita is now available as a free eBook at:

https://www.buddhism.hku.hk/publication ... uttimagga/








Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?Report
Quote

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:24 am
If you read the introductory section to Vimt., it gives you a pretty good idea of the differences between Vism. and Vimt.

Vimt. is practical and concise, meant for people seeking nirvana.
Vism. is compiled with scholarly detail [of questionable value], by non meditators who go on long winded meandering without giving proper guidance on when there are contradictory positions presented, which one is reliable, which one should be followed. It enjoys greater popularity because it's adopted by the late Theravada party, and also has a 'bigger is better' fallacy. The book is much bigger and thicker and it sounds complicated and impressive therefore it must be better and true and correct.

Unfortunately most end users lack the ability and qualifications to sort out what's true and what's false.

sampajāna-musā-vādo = deliberate lie telling, not 'situational awareness of lie'

139 references in Vinaya, a few dozen more in suttas with the phrase sampajāna-musā-vādo = deliberate lie telling

Results for:

sampajānamusā

Vin: 139

DN: 5

MN: 9

SN: 8

AN: 11

KN: 12

sampajānamusā (167) sampajānamusāvāde (11)

sampajānamusāvādaṃ (1) sampajānamusāvādo (5)

sampajānamusāvādassa (2) sampajānamusāvādoti (2) 

SN 17.11 Suvaṇṇapāti: A Golden Bowl

11. Suvaṇṇapātisutta	11. A Golden Bowl
Sāvatthiyaṃ viharati.	At Sāvatthī.
“Dāruṇo, bhikkhave, lābhasakkārasiloko … pe … adhigamāya.	“Possessions, honor, and popularity are brutal …
Idhāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ekaccaṃ puggalaṃ evaṃ cetasā ceto paricca pajānāmi:	When I’ve comprehended the mind of a certain person, I understand:
‘na cāyamāyasmā suvaṇṇapātiyāpi rūpiyacuṇṇaparipūrāya hetu sampajānamusā bhāseyyā’ti.	‘This venerable would not tell a deliberate lie even for the sake of a golden bowl filled with silver powder.’
Tamenaṃ passāmi aparena samayena lābhasakkārasilokena abhibhūtaṃ pariyādiṇṇacittaṃ sampajānamusā bhāsantaṃ.	But some time later I see them tell a deliberate lie because their mind is overcome and overwhelmed by possessions, honor, and popularity.
Evaṃ dāruṇo kho, bhikkhave, lābhasakkārasiloko … pe …	So brutal are possessions, honor, and popularity. …”
evañhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban”ti.

AN 3.28 Gūthabhāṇī: Speech like Dung

28. Gūthabhāṇīsutta	28. Speech like Dung
“Tayome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ.	“These three kinds of people are found in the world.
Katame tayo?	What three?
Gūthabhāṇī, pupphabhāṇī, madhubhāṇī.	One with speech like dung, one with speech like flowers, and one with speech like honey.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo gūthabhāṇī?	And who has speech like dung?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sabhaggato vā parisaggato vā ñātimajjhagato vā pūgamajjhagato vā rājakulamajjhagato vā abhinīto sakkhipuṭṭho: ‘ehambho purisa, yaṃ jānāsi taṃ vadehī’ti. So ajānaṃ vā āha: ‘jānāmī’ti, jānaṃ vā āha: ‘na jānāmī’ti, apassaṃ vā āha: ‘passāmī’ti, passaṃ vā āha: ‘na passāmī’ti; iti attahetu vā parahetu vā āmisakiñcikkhahetu vā sampajānamusā bhāsitā hoti.	It’s someone who is summoned to a council, an assembly, a family meeting, a guild, or to the royal court, and asked to bear witness: ‘Please, mister, say what you know.’ Not knowing, they say ‘I know.’ Knowing, they say ‘I don’t know.’ Not seeing, they say ‘I see.’ And seeing, they say ‘I don’t see.’ So they deliberately lie for the sake of themselves or another, or for some trivial worldly reason.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, puggalo gūthabhāṇī.	This is called a person with speech like dung.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo pupphabhāṇī?	And who has speech like flowers?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sabhaggato vā parisaggato vā ñātimajjhagato vā pūgamajjhagato vā rājakulamajjhagato vā abhinīto sakkhipuṭṭho: ‘ehambho purisa, yaṃ pajānāsi taṃ vadehī’ti, so ajānaṃ vā āha: ‘na jānāmī’ti, jānaṃ vā āha: ‘jānāmī’ti, apassaṃ vā āha: ‘na passāmī’ti, passaṃ vā āha: ‘passāmī’ti; iti attahetu vā parahetu vā āmisakiñcikkhahetu vā na sampajānamusā bhāsitā hoti.	It’s someone who is summoned to a council, an assembly, a family meeting, a guild, or to the royal court, and asked to bear witness: ‘Please, mister, say what you know.’ Not knowing, they say ‘I don’t know.’ Knowing, they say ‘I know.’ Not seeing, they say ‘I don’t see.’ And seeing, they say ‘I see.’ So they don’t deliberately lie for the sake of themselves or another, or for some trivial worldly reason.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, puggalo pupphabhāṇī.	This is called a person with speech like flowers.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo madhubhāṇī?	And who has speech like honey?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo pharusaṃ vācaṃ pahāya pharusāya vācāya paṭivirato hoti;	It’s someone who gives up harsh speech.
yā sā vācā nelā kaṇṇasukhā pemanīyā hadayaṅgamā porī bahujanakantā bahujanamanāpā tathārūpiṃ vācaṃ bhāsitā hoti.	They speak in a way that’s mellow, pleasing to the ear, lovely, going to the heart, polite, likable and agreeable to the people.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, puggalo madhubhāṇī.	This is called a person with speech like honey.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, tayo puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmin”ti.	These are the three people found in the world.”

sampajāna-musā-vādo = deliberate lie telling, not 'situational awareness of lie'

SN 47.42 Body dependent on food, 4 satipaṭṭhāna context, showing that kāya is physical body in contrast to citta.

 

47.42 - SN 47.42 Samudaya: Origin

42. Samudayasutta	42. Origin
“Catunnaṃ, bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhānānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca desessāmi.	“monks, I will teach you the origin and the ending of the four kinds of remembering and applying Dharma.
Taṃ suṇātha.	Listen …

47.42.1 - (4sp #1 kāya: body)

Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāyassa samudayo?	And what is the origin of the body?
Āhārasamudayā kāyassa samudayo;	The body originates from food.
āhāranirodhā kāyassa atthaṅgamo.	When food ceases, the body ends.

47.42.2 - (4sp #2 vedana: sensations)

Phassasamudayā vedanānaṃ samudayo;	sensations originate from contact.
phassanirodhā vedanānaṃ atthaṅgamo.	When contact ceases, sensations end.

47.42.3 - (4sp #3 citta: mind)

Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo;	The mind originates from name and form.
nāmarūpanirodhā cittassa atthaṅgamo.	When name and form cease, the mind ends.

47.42.4 - (4sp #4 dhamma)

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo;	Dharmas originate from attention.
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo”ti.	When focus ends, Dharmas end.”

(end of sutta⏹️)

AN 7.49 great example of why sampajāno is not "situational awareness"

 

Sujato's AN 7.49 translation has, for all 7 perceptions, this refrain:

Veditabbametaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā ‘subhāvitā me dukkhe anattasaññā, atthi me pubbenāparaṃ viseso, pattaṃ me bhāvanābalan’ti.	they should know: ‘My perception of not-self in suffering is well developed. I have realized a distinction higher than before. I have attained a fruit of development.’
Itiha tattha sampajāno hoti.	In this way they are aware of the situation.

The point of embedding sampajāno in the 4 satipaṭṭhāna formula,

is to bundle the pañña (wisdom/discernment) faculty with sati faculty. 

Abhidhamma and the commentaries agree here, look at how they gloss sampajāno in satipaṭṭhāna.

Look at how SN 46.3

under Dhamma -vicaya awakening factor, bundles pañña, pa-viciniti, pa-vicārati (vitakka and vicāra of first jhāna), pari-vimamsa (4th iddipāda). 

paññāya here is obviously referring to the sampajāno that's bundled with sati in the 7 awakening factors, with the 4 satipaṭṭhāna, as well as all four jhānas (especially 3rd jhāna).

(2. 💭 Dhamma-vicaya: taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya, pa-vicinati pa-vicarati pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati )

So tathā sato viharanto	He, {dwelling as} a rememberer,
taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya	that Dhamma-[teaching] (with) discernment,
pa-vicinati pa-vicarati	(he) discriminates, (he) evaluates,
pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati.	circumspect-investigation-(he)-enters-upon.
. Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu	. On-the occasion, monks, a-monk
tathā sato viharanto	Dwelling as a rememberer,
taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya	that Dhamma-[teaching] (with) discernment,
pa-vicinati pa-vicarati	(he) discriminates, (he) evaluates,
pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati.	circumspect-investigation-(he)-enters-upon.
Dhamma-vicaya-sam-bojjh-aṅgo tasmiṃ samaye	Dhamma-investigation-awakening-factor on-that occasion
bhikkhuno āraddho hoti;	(the) monk has-aroused;
Dhamma-vicaya-sam-bojjh-aṅgaṃ tasmiṃ samaye	Dhamma-investigation-awakening-factor on-that occasion
bhikkhu bhāveti;	(the) monk develops;
Dhamma-vicaya-sam-bojjh-aṅgo tasmiṃ samaye	Dhamma-investigation-awakening-factor on-that occasion
bhikkhuno bhāvanā-pāripūriṃ gacchati.	(the) monk has-developed-(and)-fulfilled *******.

You're not just "situationally aware"

You're exercising the full power of the paññā wisdom faculty.

Bodhi translated 'sampajāno' as "clear comprehension",

I translate it as 'lucid-discerning.'

Sujato mostly translates it as 'situational awareness', 

occasionally he translates it as "awareness" or something else more vague when it's extremely clear it can't be 'situational awareness' in that context.

In AN 7.49, it's clear sampajāno is not just 'situational awareness'.

A cocaine addict is 'situationally aware' that they're addicted and it's painful.

pañña, lucid discerning, wisdom faculty, is a wisdom that sees why you're addicted, 

how to break the causes of addiction, 

how to get out of it.

Becoming situationally aware of dukkha is just an obvious minor detail that precedes the real work.

The point of bundling sampajāno with sati, in 7 awakening factors and 4 satipaṭṭhāna, is to give you the tool to completely end suffering,

not to just become situationally aware that, "OH, I'm aware that I'm suffering."

"Situational awareness" is not even in the dictionary

Wikipedia has:

Situational awareness or situation awareness (SA) is the understanding of an environment, its elements, and how it changes with respect to time or other factors. Situational awareness is important for effective decision making in many environments. It is formally defined as:

“the perception of the elements in the environment within a volume of time and space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the projection of their status in the near future”.[1]

An alternative definition is that situation awareness is adaptive, externally-directed consciousness that has as its products knowledge about a dynamic task environment and directed action within that environment. [2]

conclusion: Sampajāno is the pañña (wisdom) indriya, synonymous with right view

wisdom can do situational awareness,

but situational awareness can't do what wisdom does.

So it's a bad translation of sampajāno and wrong interpretation of the Dhamma.

It makes the collection of suttas incoherent when you start arbitrarily giving specialized meanings according to context.

Sujato needs to follow his own translation guidelines here.

Principle of least meaning.

Abhidhamma and the commentaries agree sampajāno is the pañña faculty, so does common sense.

sex, drugs, rock and roll: 'viveka' is not 'seclusion'

This is the TITWOW Syndrome : TITWOW = Translators Irritatingly Translate With One Word 

I explore the meaning and translation of the term in detail here:

4👑☸ → EBpedia📚 → viveka  

citing the suttas that most clearly show viveka can not be (just) seclusion,

but more along the lines of wisdom, discernment, discrimination, judgment, 

just as the sanskrit dictionary definition states (which doesn't even list 'seclusion' as an option!)

sex, drugs, rock and roll

Here I want to explore 'viveka' in the context of first jhāna's relation to Kāma (sensuality),

and show why 'viveka' can not be (unqualified) seclusion.

Suppose you're the parents of two teenage kids, one boy, one girl, who just hit the puberty age, where hormones are running wild and they're exposed to all kinds of temptations and dangers involving sex, drugs, rock and roll.

The right way to train your kids, is with 'viveka'.

But which viveka? Here are three kinds of viveka, as interpreted by Buddhist translators of first jhāna.

1. 'viveka' = 'seclusion' from five cords of sensual pleasures 

99% of translators seem to go with this option.

So following this strategy, the way you, as parents would protect your teenage kids, are to 'seclude' them from sex, drugs, rock and roll.

You don't allow them to have a boy friend or girl friend until they graduate college.

You don't allow them to wear provocative clothing.

You don't allow them to spend any time alone with someone of the opposite sex.

You don't allow them to watch any sensual media, movies, music, etc.

You don't allow them to talk to or associate with any friends who are into sex, drugs, rock and roll, etc.

You get the idea.

You seclude them from bad influences, and any possible link to contact with bad things.

 

2. 'viveka' = 'discernment', understanding the nature of the five cords of sensual pleasures 

Keren Arbel translates that way (see viveka 10 – misc.).

Unlike the parents of #1, the parents of #2  realize if they just they 'seclude' their kids in a protective bubble devoid of sex, drugs, rock and roll, but don't teach their kids why those elements are dangerous,  it's unlikely the kids are going to suddenly figure out the dangers themselves.

What's more likely to happen, is the kids are going to become even more intensely interested in sex, drugs, rock and roll, disobey their parents, and embrace the very dangers their parents wish them to avoid. 

What a thrill, to do the taboo.

(to be continued...)

TITWOW syndrome example with 'sati' ("mindfulness") and 'google'

Using 'google' to illustrate problem of 'sati' as 'mindfulness'

If I were to say, "use google", or "google that." 

Imagine if I was to translate that phrase for English speakers 2000 years from now.

Maybe I would translate "search" or "find" for 'google'.

Do you see the problem?

"find that." leaves the questions of:

 "what should I be finding?"

"where should I be looking?"

"when should I be doing this?"

This is the TITWOW Syndrome : TITWOW = Translators Irritatingly Translate With One Word 

It's not enough to just translate 'google' with 'find', I need to state what key word I'm searching for, if it's not explicitly stated near the phrase 'google that', 

and I need to explain the context for the future readers that google searches a database of world human knowledge from 1000 CE to 2020 CE for example.

Similarly, 'sati' is not just 'mindfulness'. You need to explain what we're supposed to be mindful of, what's the range of that (local, world, mental, etc.),  and when. 

Hardly anyone knows what we're suppose to be 'mindful' of, even Buddhists 

'Sati' translated with the single word 'mindfulness' is one of the biggest causes of why most people, including  Buddhists, don't have a clear and correct understanding of what 'sati' is, as the Buddha originally defined it. 

TITWOW Syndrome : TITWOW = Translators Irritatingly Translate With One Word 

The problem is, it's not enough to just translate word for word here, sati -> mindfulness.

With each occurence of 'sati' in the suttas, there are unstated supporting actors and context.

Who is doing 'sati', with respect to what? 

supported by and by means of what? 

and when? 

In the EBT (early buddhist teachings), sati defined by the Buddha means:

You remember and apply The Dhamma not just in the present moment, but at all times.

'remember' means both memorizing and recollecting

'remember' means both the act of commiting relevant information to memory, and recalling relevant information to mind to the present moment as needed ("keeping it in mind", "mindfulness"). 

'The Dhamma' means

The Dhamma is the Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana.

In the more specific context of exactly how 'sati' expects 'Dhamma' to be formulated,

If no specific Dhamma instruction is stated where the 'sati' term appears in the sutta passage, 

the default value of 'The Dhamma'

are the four satipaṭṭhāna formula, as stated in SN 47.2.

Other suttas state that one is to do sati all the time. Any time you're not doing sati, you're in grave danger.

One way to avoid the TITWOW syndrome for translating 'sati'.

I translate 'sati' everywhere in the suttas as, "remembering and applying The Dhamma".

That works everywhere. 

Try it out.

Related

Two ways in which sati ("mindfulness") is R.A.D.

(r.a.d. = remember and apply Dhamma)

Forum discussion

Spirited_Ad8737

·4 days ago

Nice point. That's quite the well-crafted acronym, btw. Who hasn't been pleasantly surprised seeing a member of the the Paridae family of small passerine birds which occur mainly in the Northern Hemisphere and Africa?

level 2

lucid24-frankk

OP·just now

another interesting things about chickadees (tits):

The tits make a variety of calls and songs. They are amongst the most vocal of all birds, calling continuously in most situations, so much so that they are only ever silent for specific reasons such as avoiding predators or when intruding on a rival's territory. Quiet contact calls are made while feeding to facilitate cohesion with others in their social group.[5] Other calls are used for signalling alarm—a well-known example being the "chic-a-dee-dee" of North American species in the genus Poecile, the call which gives them their local common name, the chickadee. The call also serves as a rallying call to summon others to mob and harass the predator. The number of "dee" syllables at the end of the call increases with the level of danger the predator poses.[10]

Similarly, my acronym TITWOW serves as a rallying cry for people to carefully examine and question translations and interpretation of sutta passages

illustration of Buddha Gotoma where he looks like a human being

Illustration by Bhikkhu Vimalo from a BPS postcard wishing a happy vesak

 

More images where Buddha looks human:

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/02/where-are-buddha-images-and-statues.html