are you loathsome tonight?

 The ordinary condition of the worldling is to fall for the delusion of romance, heartbreak, loss, depression, loneliness again and again, life after life, as expressed by the King of Rock'n roll  succinctly here.

original lyrics from famous Elvis Presley love song

Lyrics

Are you lonesome tonight

Do you miss me tonight?

Are you sorry we drifted apart?

Does your memory stray

To a brighter sunny day

When I kissed you and called you sweetheart?

Do the chairs in your parlor

Seem empty and bare?

Do you gaze at your doorstep

And picture me there?

Is your heart filled with pain

Shall I come back again?

Tell me, dear

Are you lonesome tonight?

I wonder if you're lonesome tonight

You know, someone said that the world's a stage

And each must play a part

Fate had me playing in love you as my sweetheart

Act one was when we met, I loved you at first glance

You read your line so cleverly and never missed a cue

Then came act two, you seemed to change, you acted strange

And why I'll never know

Honey, you lied when you said you loved me

And I had no cause to doubt you

But I'd rather go on hearing your lies

Than go on living without you

Now the stage is bare and I'm standing there

With emptiness all around

And if you won't come back to me

Then they can bring the curtain down

Is your heart filled with pain

Shall I come back again?

Tell me, dear

Are you lonesome tonight?

Source: Musixmatch

Songwriters: Roy Turk / Lou Handman (e.presley/jordanaires Only- Manuf/released By Rca)

Are You Lonesome Tonight lyrics © Bourne Co., Peer International Corporation, Redwood Music Ltd

Now let's see what happens when you apply the 5abi ariya bhavita indriya 

such as in MN 152: https://lucid24.org/mn/mn152/index.html

And you replace ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention) to the subha nimitta (mark of beauty)

with yoniso manasi kara (wise attention) to the asubha nimitta (signs of non-beauty) and patikule (loathsomeness).

This is how you use the 5abi. When Māra (the devil) makes a full assault on your weakness, you transform the perceptions that are meant to delude and enchant you, into a skillful perception that flips the script to counter attack and defeat Māra. 

Here, I transform the word 'lonesome', which sounds like 'loathsome', and what was a song about romance, love, loneliness and heartache become a path out of suffering and rebirth, using asubha nimitta to defeat subha nimitta.

(and a few other words changed, but lyrics mostly intact, has totally different meaning and ends with arahantship)

Are you loathsome tonight?

Do you miss me tonight?

Are you sorry we drifted apart?

Does your memory stray

To a brighter sunny day

When I kissed you and called you sweetheart?

Do the chairs in your parlor

Seem empty and bare?

Do you gaze at your doorstep

And picture me there?

Is your heart filled with pain

Shall I come back again?

Tell me, dear

Are you loathsome tonight?

I wonder if you're loathsome tonight

You know, someone said that the world's a stage

And each must play a part

Fate had me playing in love you as my sweetheart

Act one was when we met, I loved you at first glance

You read your line so cleverly and never missed a cue

Then came act two, you seemed to change, you acted strange

And why I'll never know

Honey, you lied with your appearance of subha (beauty)

And I had every cause to doubt you

But I'm done hearing your lies

free from desire, living without you

Now the stage is bare and I'm standing there

With emptiness all around

Subha will never come back to me

And they can bring the curtain down

now my heart's filled with joy

I won't come back again.

Tell me, dear

Are you loathsome tonight?

3 min. video: Excellent real life metta, mudita, karma and deva protection in action.

 

Re: How to practice loving kindness friendly-kindness?

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Post by frank k » Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:16 am

Gami47 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:56 am

First, you're probably going to run into problems if you follow instructions where people don't translate 'metta' correctly.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... thats.html
'love' is absolutely wrong, 'loving-kindness' is an attempt to avoid the problems with 'love', but still an ill-advised translation.

metta is friendliness, good will.

Second, I'd highly recommend people avoid Vism. or the many modern teachers who base their instructions on Vism. derived ideas for the brahmaviharas.

Now the suttas unfortunately don't give as much detailed instruction on metta as we'd like.
But I'd recommend using that versatility in conjunction with discernment and common sense.

For example, in this great 3 minute video here, this is an excellent real life example of metta in action, as well as mudita, and how karma works and invites protection from devas and other beings.

later in the thread:

Highly recommended articles by Thanissaro B. , including this new book from him in 2022

https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#SubDet
Sublime Determinations: a Retreat on the Brahmavihāras. (published July 13, 2022) A transcript from a retreat held in conjunction with the Sociedade Vipassana de Meditação of Brasília on the topic of the four sublime attitudes (brahmavihāras): unlimited goodwill, unlimited compassion, unlimited empathetic joy, and unlimited equanimity.


And some of his other articles on the topic, from the same website
The Sublime Attitudes
Head & Heart Together
The Limits of the Unlimited Attitudes

To me it really speaks to the general aptitude of understanding in the Buddhist community when it comes to the brahma viharas, that no one else has brought up Thanissaro's articles and recommended them on this thread.
It tells me you haven't really thought about the deeper issues, or encountered the many problems from LBT Vism. and general watered down and misguided practices common today.
For example, it makes a radical difference in your life and in your practice between trying to regard all living beings as a mother loves her only child (like a frantic nanny chasing after unruly kids),
as opposed to trying to protect the purity of one's mind (from ill will) as a mother protects her only child.

Or what it means in SN 47 when the two acrobats, the master told the apprentice "you protect me, and I'll protect you", and the apprentice corrected the master (which the Buddha approved) and said, "No, you protect yourself and I'll protect myself."

Or how would you actually in practice if a bandit were to saw off your limbs, and you are suppose to direct metta at them?

Thanissaro's articles on the topic (sutta based) that I've read that addresses many complications that arise from actually trying to incorporate metta into your practice.
If you haven't read his work on the subject, it will really open your mind and help you see some of the many problems with how the brahmaviharas are commonly taught today.

Can pity/sympathetic vicarious suffering coexist with karuṇa/compassion and first jhāna as a domanassa (distressed mental state)?

 If not, then what is the domanassa allowable in first jhāna?

Vimuttimagga says asubha and cemetary contemplations can only be done up to first jhāna (and not the higher jhānas), so that would be another type of first jhāna domanassa allowable. 

Re: Near Enemy of Compassion: Sadness or Pity?

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Post by frank k » Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:57 am

AFAIK that whole 'near enemy' of the brahmaviharas is a commentarial invention.
I don't see any suttas talking about that, the suttas cited in this thread (prior to my post) don't support that IMO.

If anything, I would think the suttas implicitly support an idea of a 'near friend' in pity for compassion.
Recall that domanassa (distressed mental state) can be present in first or second jhāna (depending on which version of SN 48.40 you believe).
Just as mudita, being the rejoicing of virtue of oneself or others doing skillful Dharmas, there is vicarious enjoyment,
what I suspect is there is a version of karuna with vicarious sympathy, pity, resulting in a first jhāna with a domanassa of pity/sympathatic pain done with the karuna.
If that's the case, then that would make 'pity' a 'near friend' instead of 'near enemy' of karuna.

-frankk

pathofsincerity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:36 pmIn brief, does anyone know any suttas or commentarial texts that talk about pity as the near enemy of compassion? If not, does anyone know how exactly pity came to be the popular definition of the near enemy of compassion?

As for the research I've already done:

Any google search of "near enemy of compassion" turns up endless results saying it's pity, including many from prominent Buddhist teachers. However, in my search for an actual source of this definition, the closest I've come up with is people referencing Jack Kornfield. I haven't located anything in the suttas talking about the near enemy of compassion.

The earliest reference I can find on the subject is in the Visuddhimagga, where it says the following:

"Compassion has grief based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing failure. Such grief has been described in the way beginning, “When a man either regards as a privation failure to obtain visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased and changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief as this is called grief based on the home life."

In his book Compassion and Emptiness, also citing the Visuddhimagga, Venerable Analayo says something similar:

"This is vital in so far as the meditative cultivation of compassion can only lead to deeper concentration if it is undertaken with a positive or even joyful mind. From a practical perspective, this means that one’s cultivation of compassion needs to steer clear of sadness. This is not easy, since what causes the arising of compassion can naturally lead to being afflicted oneself by sadness. Therefore it is important to monitor closely one’s own response to the affliction of others. This should ideally proceed from the opening of the heart that is genuinely receptive to the pain and suffering of others, to the positive mental condition of being filled with the wish for others to be free from affliction and suffering.

Understood in this way, compassion does not mean to commiserate to the extent of suffering along with the other. This would be falling prey to what later tradition considers to be the “near enemy” of compassion. According to the Visuddhimagga, cruelty is the “far enemy” of compassion, in the sense of being directly opposed to it, whereas worldly forms of sadness are its “near enemy”. Needless to say, both enemies are best avoided.

The early discourses do not explicitly draw a distinction between near and far enemies of compassion."

Once again citing the Visuddimagga, Buddhist scholar Andrew Olendzki defines compassion's near enemy as "not bearing the suffering of others." Presumably, this is just putting the first quote I listed into common language. Source: http://nebula.wsimg.com/0ad4ca566b735b2 ... oworigin=1

In lieu of all this, going back to my basic question, does anyone know any suttas or commentarial texts that talk about pity as the near enemy of compassion? If not, does anyone know how exactly pity came to be the popular definition of the near enemy of compassion?

MN 14 ariya-sāvaka can't be 'noble disciple' here

 ariya-sāvaka, is a disciple of the noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (one who is at least a stream enterer already). Otherwise, you have a case here in MN 14 where this stream enterer had become a stream enterer without having even attained first jhāna yet. 

(sujato trans.)

‘Appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā,	4.1 Sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress,
ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti—	and they are all the more full of drawbacks.
iti cepi, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ hoti,	4.2 Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen this with right wisdom,
so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi pītisukhaṃ nādhigacchati,	so long as they don’t achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sensual stimuli and unskillful qualities,
aññaṃ vā tato santataraṃ;	or something even more peaceful than that,
atha kho so neva tāva anāvaṭṭī kāmesu hoti.	4.3 they might still return to sensual pleasures.
Yato ca kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa ‘appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā,	4.4 …
ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti—evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ hoti,	…
so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi	…
pītisukhaṃ adhigacchati aññaṃ	But when they do achieve that rapture and bliss,
vā tato santataraṃ;	or something more peaceful than that,
atha kho so anāvaṭṭī kāmesu hoti.	4.5 they will not return to sensual pleasures.

viveka not just 'seclusion', but 'judicious seclusion': SN 16.4, MN 4, AN 8.30

 

Re: Aloneness

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Post by frank k » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:29 am

mjaviem wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:33 am

frank k wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:48 amCould you guys show sutta reference numbers preferably, or pali sutta titles when you post quotes?
Looking at sutta translations without pali, is like reading news articles that won't name sources or go through editors and vetting process.

...

SN 16.4: Buddha asks mahā kassapa why he continues practicing difficult austerities, he replies for "aloneness":
viveka (judicous-seclusion) - commonly misunderstood as 'seclusion', the Buddha's definition of viveka is not just 'seclusion'. It means one has right view and discernment that led them to seclusion. Compared to for example, a unabomber terrorist, or any of a number of reasons why one would choose seclusion.
asaṃsaggassa (aloofness) - this is the opposite of someone who likes to gather and associate with people

MN 4: eka-t-ta (alone). eka = one, single. This is probably the word you're looking for when you want the English 'alone'.
Where viveka comes up, it's in the process of Buddha using right view and discernment to weed out the hindrance and launch the 7 awakening factors and four jhanas.
So again, 'viveka' was not just 'seclusion', it was 'judicious-seclusion' or discriminative separation arrived at from right view. It wasn't the seclusion of someone who loves sensual pleasures but was just temporarily sick of it and wanted a short vacation "secluded" from them, but really just wants to return to sensual pleasures after a break.

AN 8.30 eight great thoughts of first jhāna
Here viveka again shows discernment, not just seclusion.
the viveka is shown as supporting action for nekhhamma (renunciation), the first aspect of right resolve that is the opposite of kāma (lust, sensual pleasures).

jhāna is life. jhāna is a 24/7 lifestyle. jhāna and satipaṭṭhāna are done simultaneously.

 

vihāra : [m.] an abode; a dwelling place; mode of life; passing the time.

viharati : [vi + har + a] lives; abides; dwells; sojourns.       

 

yadidaṃ — cattāro sati-’paṭṭhānā.

In other words, this path is the four ways of remembering [The Dharma ];

Katame cattāro?	Which Four [ways]?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu …	It’s when …

(standard 4sp🐘 formula)

kāye kāyā-(a)nu-passī viharati	He lives continuously seeing the body as a body [as it truly is].
vedanāsu vedanā-(a)nu-passī viharati	He lives continuously seeing sensations as sensations [as it truly is].
citte cittā-(a)nu-passī viharati	He lives continuously seeing a mind as a mind [as it truly is].
dhammesu dhammā-(a)nu-passī viharati	He lives continuously seeing ☸Dharma as ☸Dharma [as it truly is].
(… elided refrain from each way…)	[in each of the 4 ways of remembering]:
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,	he is ardent 🏹, he has lucid discerning 👁, he remembers 🐘 [to apply relevant ☸Dharma].
vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;	he should remove greed and distress regarding the world.

4.3.2.5. Paṭhamajhāna	4.3.2.5. First jhāna
so	The monk is

(STED 1st Jhāna)

🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi	Judiciously-secluded from sensuality,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi	Judiciously-secluded from unskillful ☸Dharmas,
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ	with directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	with [mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure born from judicious-seclusion,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in first jhāna.

4.3.2.6 - Second jhāna

4.3.2.6. Dutiyajhāna	4.3.2.6. Second jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 2nd Jhāna)

Vitakka-vicārānaṃ vūpasamā	with the subsiding of directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
ajjhattaṃ sam-pasādanaṃ	with internal purity and self-confidence,
🌄 cetaso ekodi-bhāvaṃ	his mind becomes singular in focus.
🚫(V&V💭) a-vitakkaṃ a-vicāraṃ	Without directed-thought and evaluation, [mental processing is now subverbal,]
🌄😁🙂 samādhi-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	[mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure is born from undistractible-lucidity,
🌗 dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in second jhāna.

4.3.2.7 - Third jhāna

4.3.2.7. Tatiyajhāna	4.3.2.7. Third jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 3rd Jhāna)

🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā	With [mental] rapture fading,
👁 upekkhako ca viharati	he lives equanimously observing [☸Dharmas with subverbal mental processing].
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno,	remembering [and applying relevant ☸Dharma], he lucidly discerns.
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,	He experiences pleasure with the [physical] body.
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti —	The Noble Ones praise this [stage of jhāna in particular because they expect this to be the normal state of the average monk in all postures at all times]:
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti	"He lives happily with pleasure, Equanimously observing and remembering [to engage in relevant ☸Dharma]."
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in third jhāna.

4.3.2.8 - Fourth jhāna

4.3.2.8. Catutthajhāna	4.3.2.8. Fourth jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 4th Jhāna)

sukhassa ca pahānā	With the abandoning of [physical] pleasure
dukkhassa ca pahānā	and pain,
pubbeva so-manassa-do-manassānaṃ atthaṅgamā	with the previous abandoning of elated and distressed mental states,
A-dukkham-a-sukhaṃ	experiencing [physical] sensations of neither pain nor pleasure,
👁🐘 Upekkhā-sati-pārisuddhiṃ	his equanimous observation and his remembering [and application of relevant ☸Dharma] is purified.
🌕 catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati	he attains and lives in fourth jhāna.

superstition in Theravada: power of metta to protect from fire, sacci kiriyaya power of truth

 

Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Post by frank k » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:55 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:35 amAccording to the Commentary on the Aṅguttaranikāya it was boiling oil, not hot water. Uttarā was unscathed due to the protective power of loving-kindness or compassion.

The eleven benefits of loving-kindness are enumerated in the Mettānisaṃsā Suttaṃ.

The benefits of meditation on compassion (karuṇā) would be similar.

Does Vism. or the commentaries describe how powers of metta or sacchi kiryiya actually work, in protecting the reciter from fatal harm?

Sounds like total BS.
The power of metta could indirectly work as protection if one has powerful deva friends who intervene to stop fire from burning the reciter.
But the actual protection is coming from supernormal powers of the deva, not the reciter.
If Uttara herself had supernormal powers, then that could be a reason, but then, it's the supernormal powers then that is the protection, and not the metta.

Sacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like total BS.
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"

New SP-FLUENT translation of the standard four jhānas formula that spells out some details, and emphasizes all postures, all times

vihāra : [m.] an abode; a dwelling place; mode of life; passing the time.

viharati : [vi + har + a] lives; abides; dwells; sojourns.       

 

4.3.2.5. Paṭhamajhāna	4.3.2.5. First jhāna
so	The monk is

(STED 1st Jhāna)

🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi	Judiciously-secluded from sensuality,
🚫😠 vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi	Judiciously-secluded from unskillful ☸Dharmas,
(V&V💭) sa-vitakkaṃ sa-vicāraṃ	with directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
😁🙂 viveka-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	with [mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure born from judicious-seclusion,
🌘 paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in first jhāna.

4.3.2.6 - Second jhāna

4.3.2.6. Dutiyajhāna	4.3.2.6. Second jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 2nd Jhāna)

Vitakka-vicārānaṃ vūpasamā	with the subsiding of directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ☸Dharma thoughts],
ajjhattaṃ sam-pasādanaṃ	with internal purity and self-confidence,
🌄 cetaso ekodi-bhāvaṃ	his mind becomes singular in focus.
🚫(V&V💭) a-vitakkaṃ a-vicāraṃ	Without directed-thought and evaluation, [mental processing is now subverbal,]
🌄😁🙂 samādhi-jaṃ pīti-sukhaṃ	[mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure is born from undistractible-lucidity,
🌗 dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in second jhāna.

4.3.2.7 - Third jhāna

4.3.2.7. Tatiyajhāna	4.3.2.7. Third jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 3rd Jhāna)

🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā	With [mental] rapture fading,
👁 upekkhako ca viharati	he lives equanimously observing [☸Dharmas with subverbal mental processing].
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno,	remembering [and applying relevant ☸Dharma], he lucidly discerns.
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,	He experiences pleasure with the [physical] body.
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti —	The Noble Ones praise this [stage of jhāna in particular because they expect this to be the normal state of the average monk in all postures at all times]:
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti	"He lives happily with pleasure, Equanimously observing and remembering [to engage in relevant ☸Dharma]."
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in third jhāna.

4.3.2.8 - Fourth jhāna

4.3.2.8. Catutthajhāna	4.3.2.8. Fourth jhāna
Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu	Furthermore,

(STED 4th Jhāna)

sukhassa ca pahānā	With the abandoning of [physical] pleasure
dukkhassa ca pahānā	and pain,
pubbeva so-manassa-do-manassānaṃ atthaṅgamā	with the previous abandoning of elated and distressed mental states,
A-dukkham-a-sukhaṃ	experiencing [physical] sensations of neither pain nor pleasure,
👁🐘 Upekkhā-sati-pārisuddhiṃ	his equanimous observation and his remembering [and application of relevant ☸Dharma] is purified.
🌕 catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati	he attains and lives in fourth jhāna.

mudita: pervading rays of mudita swerving around unworthy beings, and other Vism. apologist arguments

 

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=687102#p687102

Johann wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:18 am...

I can instantly generate mudita contemplating the meaning and beauty in the Buddha's dharma, and pervade that energy in all directions or toward specific beings.

That's merely sharing merits, which is great and good, yet isn't mudita-brahmavihara, good householder.

Similar pattern is made by citing dedication of merits, and metta.

What energy? Those are thoughts, and evaluations. It's not a feeling that one spreads, by it's gain of pamojja (feeling), by surrender, letting go, give peace, by verbalized thoughs of appreciation.
...

frankk:
What's the phrase people usually use when sharing merits?
The word 'anumodana', appears in there. Rejoicing.
anu-modana = continuous modati = pamojja (pa-modati) = mudita.


If Vism. can twist such a versatile mudita into a very specific 'non jealousy at others joy regardless of whether it's kusala or not',
why would you be so nitpicky about sharing merits of appreciating True Dharma as 'not mudita'?
Is gratitude at someone doing a great favor for you also not mudita?
Or the joy that arises for forgiving someone, or a group of beings? That's not mudita?
If we assume the 4 brahmaviharas cover the full range of positive emotions,
then surely Vism. can't be right in making mudita so narrow and specific. Where would all the other joys that arise from skillful Dharmas fall under?

Good idea to recommend Thanissaro's teachings on the subject of brahmaviharas, highly recommended for everyone.
I've read probably most of his articles on the topic before, but reading it again yesterday was a well worthwhile. Repeated study of good teachings, leads to more depth of understanding, picking up new nuances we didn't notice before, or had forgotten.

At the same time, I would also highly recommend people not pay any attention to vism.'s teaching on the 4bv.
It's got serious problems, is seriously misleading, will leave you more confused than you were before.
Vimuttimagga, which Vism. is based on, is far better, though it still has some problems that don't quite fit with EBT, IMO.






Re: Mudita (as one of 4 brahma-vihara): What is it exactly? Vism. is absolutely wrong

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:55 am
So you're saying if you see a serial killer murdering people and enjoying it,
your response is you rejoice in their joy. That may be what you do, and what vism. supports (or doesn't actively reject as Vimutiimagga does), but I see no sutta passages that would endorse that.

4bv was a pre Buddhist practice, but any time a non Buddhist practice gets assimilated, it becomes subservient to the Dhamma, and is not exempt from the Buddha's Dhamma.
4bv practiced by non Buddhists, practiced correctly, leads to brahma realm rebirth, but after that rebirth they fall to lower realms (animal or hell).
4bv practiced by buddhists practicing, leads to brahma realm rebirth as an ariya (AN 4.125, 4.126).
So clearly right view becomes part of anything subsumed into Buddhism.
That means mudita is subservient to right view.
You can not rejoice in a serial killer murdering people and enjoying it, simply for their joy, non judgmental and disregarding the source of their joy.

Restricting one's mudita rejoicing to only activities where joy was derived from skillful Dharmic activities, does not have to exclude any beings.
For example, every living being, in their past or future lives, have done some skillful dharmic activities. You can rejoice in that, then pervade the 8 directions with that energy and mind state, without giving special instructions to have your mudita rays miss and avoid serial killers.