🔗📝SN 41.8 Jain founder, Buddha's first jhāna, Jain's first jhāna scripture

 Jain's Jhāna scripture excerpted from Gabriel's article

Why should we assume that Jains practiced a meditation with thought and investigation?

 Arbel (2016, 34) observes that of the Buddhist meditation vocabulary 

 only vitakka and vicāra appear in ancient Jain texts.

 The Jain Tattvārtha Sūtra, describing different kinds of dhyāna (Pāli Jhāna),

says in sutras 9.43-44 that 

vitarka (Pāli vitakka) is scriptural knowledge (śruta) and that 

vicāra is a shifting between the object, its word, and its activity (Tatia 1994, 242). 

In 9.42 it also states,

however, that there is meditation without vicāra.

 It has not been sufficiently researched how old the ancient Jain literature is, 

 but this could be another hint that meditation with vitakka and vicāra 

 were common among ascetics of the Buddha’s time.

Frank comment

That's exactly how it works in the EBT.

sati ("mindfulness") remembers Dharma scriptural language in the form of verbal thoughts (vitakka), a communicable language.

SN 46.3 (7sb☀️)

This is one of the most important models in the EBT. You should have it memorized and know it by heart forwards and backwards. This is the canonical definition of "bhāvana", meditation, every method of meditation that generates samadhi and jhanas, uses this model. It appears as part of many 16 APS suttas, it often appears without the explicit "bojjhanga" suffix attached, but a partial causal sequence is unmistakable. 

(implied: pamojja and pīti would result from contact with inspiring monks)
(0. 👂 Bhikkhūnaṃ dhammaṃ sutvā)	0. 👂 listen to Dhamma [teaching] from a monk [and memorize it]
(1. 🐘 Sati: taṃ Dhammaṃ anus-sarati anu-vitakketi)	1. 🐘 that Dhamma [teaching] (he) recollects and thinks about
(2. 💭 Dhamma-vicaya: taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya, pa-vicinati pa-vicarati pari-vīmaṃsam-āpajjati )	2. 💭 that Dhamma discerning; he discriminates, evaluates, investigates
(3. 🏹 Vīriya: āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ a-sallīnaṃ.)	3. 🏹 his aroused vigor is not-slackening
(4. 😁 Pīti: Āraddha-vīriyassa uppajjati pīti nir-āmisā,)	4. 😁 his aroused vigor leads to arising of rapture not-carnal (of jhana)
(5. 🌊 Passaddhi: Pīti-man-assa, kāyo-pi passambhati, cittam-pi passambhati )	5. 🌊 with enraptured-mind, his body becomes pacified, his mind becomes pacified
(6. 🌄 Samādhi: Passaddha-kāyassa sukhino, cittaṃ samādhiyati.)	6. 🌄 with pacified body, he is in pleasure, mind becomes undistractable and lucid.
(7. 👁 Upekkha: so tathā-samāhitaṃ cittaṃ, sādhukaṃ ajjh-upekkhitā hoti)	7. 👁 he of such undistractable & lucid mind, thoroughly looks-upon-it-with-equanimity
(7 types of fruits, Nirvana)	Seven different levels of awakening results from proper practice of 7sb.

vitakka role in vāca (speech) and oral traditions

I don't know if Gabriel read any of my blog articles on SN 41.8, 

the earliest one I could find on my blog predates his article by more than a year.

He's never communicated with me outside of suttacentral, 

so I'm assuming he made his findings independently of mine, which is great!

It means there are sensible people out there who read suttas carefully,

come to a rational conclusion that in Indian oral traditions,

vitakka & vicāra are verbal thoughts.

It has to be that way for an oral tradition to work. 

If vitakka and vicāra were as Sujato and Vism. claim, "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina),

You couldn't build vaci-sankhara (speech fabrications) into vāca (vocalized speech).

You'd just have babbling idiots mumbling incoherently to each other. 

I browsed through the thread on suttacentral where Gabriel shared his article,

Sujato was not tagged, but pretended he didn't see it and didn't participate.

Just as he pretended not to see all the articles I posted on suttacentral from 2017-2019

examining the EBT suttas and other literature that incontrovertibly show that vitakka must be verbal thought,

not "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina).

Frank's collection of articles on SN 41.8

Saturday, January 25, 2020

vitakka and vicara are essential words/concepts in basic human communication 

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/01/vitakka-and-vicara-are-essential.html

Tuesday, February 11, 2020

Concise Proof that Vitakka and Vicāra of first jhāna means 'thinking & evaluation' 

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/02/concise-proof-that-vitakka-and-vicara.html

Thursday, June 11, 2020

SN 41.8 Jain founder doesn’t believe 2nd jhana possible, B. Sujato interpretation of vitakka illogical and incoherent 

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/06/sn-418-jain-founder-doesnt-believe-2nd.html

Friday, October 1, 2021

SN 41.8 non Buddhist doing 1st jhana, MN 36 Buddha as a boy (was non Buddhist) doing first jhana 

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/10/sn-418-non-buddhist-doing-1st-jhana-mn.html

Gabriel's article on Jain first jhāna (full article)

THE FIRST JHĀNA, AN ASSIMILATED JAIN MEDITATION PRACTICE

https://www.academia.edu/45145533/The_First_Jhana_an_Assimilated_Jain_Meditation_Practice

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/the-first-jhana-as-an-assimilated-jain-meditation-practice/19263/30

Gabriel Ellis, PhD cand. Warsaw University, February 18th 2021

Abstract:

 The article explores the hypothesis that the first Buddhist Jhāna was not a novel

discovery of the Buddha but a meditative practice assimilated from techniques available at the

Buddha’s time.

 Some hints point to a Jain source, others to an early Buddhist emphasis on the

second Jhāna upward.

 The findings are inconclusive but maintain the hypothesis as valid.

To recall, the culmination of Buddhist meditation or Samādhi 

is typically described as having four progressive stages, the Jhānas.

The first Jhāna has four factors:

thought (vitakka),

investigation (vicāra), 

rapture (pīti), and 

happiness (sukha).

 Generally, the Buddhist tradition assumes that the Jhānas 

 are a novel contribution of the Buddha 

(see for a further discussion Arbel 2016).

In SN 41.8 Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta – commonly known as the Jain master and Buddha’s contemporary Mahāvīra – 

claims that there is no avitakka avicāra samādhi, 

i.e. a state of meditation without thought and investigation, 

and that it would be like catching the wind in a net.

Mahāvīra doesn’t mention a Samādhi with thought and investigation, but the plausible

implication of his incredulous comment is that he is very familiar with its practice, 

or at the very least knows of other religious professionals who practice it.

 What Buddhist texts call the ‘first Jhāna’ would, therefore, 

 be no Buddhist invention at all 

 but a meditation practice available to other ascetic practitioners as well.

Why should we assume that Jains practiced a meditation with thought and investigation?

 Arbel (2016, 34) observes that of the Buddhist meditation vocabulary 

 only vitakka and vicāra appear in ancient Jain texts.

 The Jain Tattvārtha Sūtra, describing different kinds of dhyāna (Pāli Jhāna),

says in sutras 9.43-44 that 

vitarka (Pāli vitakka) is scriptural knowledge (śruta) and that 

vicāra is a shifting between the object, its word, and its activity (Tatia 1994, 242). 

In 9.42 it also states,

however, that there is meditation without vicāra.

 It has not been sufficiently researched how old the ancient Jain literature is, 

 but this could be another hint that meditation with vitakka and vicāra 

 were common among ascetics of the Buddha’s time.

This interpretation also shines light on a story in MN 36, MN 85, and MN 100 according to

which the later-to-be Buddha experienced a state of rapture with thought and investigation, 

i.e. the first Jhāna.

 While the commentaries say that Gotama was still a boy at that time (Ñāṇamoli &

Bodhi 1995, 1230) nothing in the actual sutta confirms that he was that young – it merely

mentions that at that time his father was off working.

 The story also doesn’t claim that his state

was a novel discovery.

 In fact, there would be nothing unusual about a young man in his mid-

twenties with great spiritual talent to have spoken to wandering ascetics on their alms-round,

inquiring about their practices and then applying them successfully.

In short, the first Jhāna could well have been an already available meditation practice

incorporated by early Buddhism into its fourfold framework of Samādhi.

 And indeed, there is

already established precedence for a very similar incorporation:

 a well-known part of Gotama’s biography is that 

 early in his spiritual quest he learned from two teachers the so-called ‘formless

realms’ – abstract meditation states with hardly any mental content at all (see Rai, 2017). 

And these ‘formless realms’ became part of Buddhist meditation, 

with the standard passages usually starting 

progressing from the four Jhānas to the four Formless Realms.

I want to highlight more aspects from Buddhist sources 

that the first Jhāna was not regarded that highly, 

which could be a consequence of an assimilation.

 As it is well known, the Noble Eightfold Path culminates in the eighth limb of Samādhi, 

 which then again is described with the four Jhānas.

 

 But when we look at the standard descriptions of the Jhānas 

the term samādhi actually only appears in the second Jhāna:

 The first Jhāna is ‘born out of separation’ (vivekaja),

and the second out of Samādhi (samādhija).

 Which means that the last limb of the Noble Eightfold Path 

 is actually named after the second Jhāna – 

 which again could be a hint that this is where the contribution of the Buddha was seen.

Another sutta might emphasize exactly this point.

 Snp 1.1, verse 7 (translation Bodhi) says:

“One whose thoughts (vitakka) have been burned out, entirely well excised internally:

1that bhikkhu gives up the here and the beyond as a serpent sheds its old worn-out skin.”

1 Yassa vitakkā vidhūpitā, ajjhattaṃ suvikappitā asesā;

So bhikkhu jahāti orapāraṃ, urago jiṇṇamivattacaṃ purāṇaṃ.

The implication of this verse is that the transcendence of vitakka 

(which could allude to the second Jhāna) 

would result in or lead to liberation.

 This claim is repeated in a parallel to this verse, in Udāna 6-7:

 Subhūtisuttaṁ (translation Ānandajoti):

“For he who has dispelled thoughts (vitakka), 

Totally cut (them) off within himself without remainder,

Perceiving the formless (nibbāna), 

beyond the shackle, 

Having overcome the four yokes - 

he 2surely does not come (to birth again).”

A text possibly critical of the first Jhāna 

is a poem that appears in the early Suttanipāta, in Snp 5.13, v. 1109 (also in SN 1.64). 

In this early material different Brahmin masters present their questions to the Buddha.

 And in the verse in question Udaya asks the Buddha what keeps the world in bondage.

 In his answer the Buddha identifies as the culprits some elements 

of the ‘first Jhāna’, namely thought and investigation (vitakka and vicāra), 

next to delight (nandi), which in this context could be a misguided version of the Jhāna factor pīti.

 A possible reading of this verse is, therefore, 

 that the meditation practice of other traditions essentially 

 leaves the system of existential bondage intact 

 since they investigate (vicāra) the wrong Dharma (vitakka) and as a

consequence get lost in delight (nandi) – 

the latter, however, doesn’t sound like a reference to Jain practitioners 

who were seen as ascetics who embrace pain in their practice.

In the end I cannot claim that there is hard proof 

for the hypothesis that the first Jhāna 

is actually an assimilation from a shared spiritual practice of the Buddha’s time.

 But there is enough supportive circumstantial evidence 

 in order to keep the idea in the back of our mind when contemplating the Buddhist Jhānas.

2 Yassa vitakkā vidhūpitā, Ajjhattaṁ suvikappitā asesā,

Taṁ saṅgam-aticca arūpasaññī, Catuyogātigato na jātu-m-etī” ti.

Abbreviations

MN Majjhima Nikāya

SN Saṃyutta Nikāya

Snp Suttanipāta

References

Ānandajoti, B.

 (2008). Udāna.

 Exalted Utterances.

 Revised version 2.2. Available Online:

https:

//www.

ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Udana/Exalted-Utterances.pdf

Arbel, K.

 (2016). Early Buddhist Meditation.

 London & New York:

 Routledge.

Bodhi, B.

 (Trans.). (2017). The Suttanipāta.

 Somerville:

 Wisdom Publications.

Ñāṇamoli, B.

 & Bodhi, B.

 (Trans.). (1995). The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha.

 A

Translation of the Majjhima Nikāya.

 Boston:

 Wisdom Publications.

Rai, S.

 (2017). The Curious Case of the Formless Attainments.

 Journal of the International

Association of Buddhist Universities, 6(2), 70-82.

Tatia, N.

 (Trans.). (1994). That which is.

 New York:

 HarperCollins Publishers.

AN 5.179: 4 recollections are the vitakka (verbal linguistic thinking) of first jhāna

Ven. sabbamitta wrote on sutta central:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/are-the-topics-for-recollection-just-recollections/32184

I remember that Bhante @sujato—I don’t remember in which thread—mentioned something along the lines that usually laypeople are taught just the topics for recollection like those on the Triple Gem etc. And I was wondering about the word “just”.

Especially when reading AN 5.179, I doubt that these recollections are just such a simple practice. There, they are called “blissful meditations in the present life belonging to the higher mind”—a phrase normally used for the jhānas.

Does that mean that the recollections are here equated to the jhānas, or does it at least mean that they, when well developed and perfected, lead into jhāna?

I am also curious what Venerables @Sunyo and @Vaddha think about this. (I often enjoy reading your discussions, and just would like to thank you here for these! :heart:)

 

frankk responds (on my blog, I'm not a member on sutta central)

Interesting to note even though B. Sujato was tagged by Ven. Sabbamitta (meaning Sujato was notified electronically to respond to the discussion), 

he did not respond, even though he can be seen to be responding to other threads on the same time period elsewhere in the forum.

Why?

Because Sujato continues to steadfastly cling to his erroneous views of vitakka on first jhāna being "placing the mind" 

even when members on his own forum present him with evidence showing that vitakka of first jhāna in the EBT explicitly are explained as having verbal, linguistic thoughts, communicable language,

 thoughts you say to yourself in your mind before you speak them out loud (vacī sankhāra are vitakka). 

Tangent: brief summary of  LBT (late buddhist) redefinition of jhāna

This is fundamental to all oral traditions.

Sati memorizes Dhamma scripture, in the form of communicable language (vitakka).

This is true in EBT (early Buddhism), 

true of Jainism (pre Buddhist) definition of their sati, dhyāna (jhāna) and their vitakka,

true of other contemporary and later Brahmanical non Buddhist traditions,

true in Early Abhidhamma (see Ab Vb and Vimuttimagga).

Only 500 years later after the Buddha's death, in LBT Theravada redefinition of jhāna in Visuddhimagga, based on non canonical Abhidhamma commentary,

they redefine body (kāya) in jhāna as not physical body, but a mental body.

they redefine verbal thinking (vitakka), as not verbal thinking, but mounting the mind on a visual kasina where no discernment or volitional thought is possible. 

they redefine physical pleasure felt in the body as mental pleasure devoid of physical pleasure.

They redefine physical form (rūpa) as the mentally created visual kasina, not the 31 anatomical body parts as EBT understands it. 

Back to Ven. Sabbamitta's question

In her thread, She, Ven. Sunyo and others not surprisingly conclude the 4 recollections are not first jhāna, not vitakka of first jhāna doing the recollection.

Perhaps if they survey a few more related suttas, they'll come to more sensible conclusion.

Clue #1: AN 5.176, just 3 suttas ago from AN 5.179, 

we're dealing with the same Anathapindika and 500 lay followers. In there, Sariputta is unmistakably glossing first jhāna. 

Even Theravada commentary confirms that Pīti of AN 5.179  is referring to first and second jhāna.

So in AN 5.176, Buddha is telling the 501 lay followers they should not be content in making merit donating requisites to the sangha, that they should practice first jhāna.

Clue #2: even though AN 5.179 doesn't mention vitakka explicitly

In AN 5.179, the same 501 lay followers, following Buddha's advice, 

now most of them if not all of them are strongly hinted to be stream enterers.

How did they get there? By using vitakka of first jhāna doing the 4 recollections.

Elsewhere, probably every other occurrence of the 80+ sutta references using the term
ābhicetasikānaṃ. refer to four jhānas.

Here, what's strongly implied is that most of those 500 followers can only do first jhāna, since they rely on vitakka (verbal thinking) to do the 4 recollections. Those who can not pacify (passaddhi sambojjhanga) verbal thoughts can not rise to 2nd jhāna and above.

Clue #3: AN 6.10 has 6 recollections (first 4 are same as the 4 of AN 5.179) 

 and covers the same territory, also dealing with lay people doing first jhāna, and it's more explicit there by listing the 7 awakening factors.

My annotated translations, with copious specific links to the exact scene of the crime, confirms everything I've asserted. 

Clue #4: AN 5.26 are monastics instead of followers doing all four jhānas

They're using the same vitakka of first jhāna, but instead of thinking about 4 recollections, they are contemplating meaning of Dharma, and also not limited to verbal thoughts of first jhāna, they move on to subverbal mental processing that takes them to second jhāna and beyond.

conclusion

So, contrary to Sujato and Ven. Sabbamitta, who hold the view that vitakka of first jhāna  is "placing the mind" (on a visual kasina), and that the four recollections are topics of mindfulness that one uses to enter samādhi (but are not properly considered part of four jhānas),

if you actually read the Buddha's words you'll find the Buddha was a plain speaker and

used his terms consistently.

Vitakka in all Indian oral traditions is what sati memorize and mentally speak in their mind before speaking it out loud,

and vitakka in first jhāna mentally reciting and reflecting on the four recollections is that very same vitakka & vicāra.

5.179 - AN 5.179 Gihi: A Layperson

(2023 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ derived from B. Sujato‍ )
(AN ^5.179 is a sequel to AN ^5.176)
    AN ^5.179 - AN 5.179 Gihi: A Layperson
        AN ^5.179.0 - (Buddha tells Sāriputta which lay people are qualified as stream enterers)
        AN ^5.179.1 - (five training rules by which his actions are restrained)
        AN ^5.179.2 - (pleasant abiding #1: confidence in the Buddha )
        AN ^5.179.3 - (pleasant abiding #2: confidence in the Dharma )
        AN ^5.179.4 - (pleasant abiding #3: confidence in the Sangha )
        AN ^5.179.5 - (pleasant abiding #4: possess ethics valued by Noble ones)

5.176 - AN 5.176 Pīti: Rapture

(2023 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ derived from B. Sujato‍ )

        AN ^5.176.1 - (Buddha tells Anāthapiṇḍika and 500 lay followers not to be content with just merit of donating requisites to sangha)
        AN ^5.176.2 - (They should develop first jhāna)
        AN ^5.176.3 - (Sariputta explains first jhāna formula’s vivekajam pīti-sukham)
        AN ^5.176.5 - (these 5 things not present in pīti/rapture)
            AN ^5.176.5.1 - (Kāma’s dukkha & domanassa)
            AN ^5.176.5.2 - (Kāma’s sukha & somanassa)
            AN ^5.176.5.3 - (A-kusala dukkha & domanassa)
            AN ^5.176.5.4 - (A-kusala sukha & somanassa)
            AN ^5.176.5.5 - (Kusala dukkha & domanassa)
        AN ^5.176.6 - (buddha praises sāriputta and confirms instructions)

6.10 - AN 6.10 Mahānāma: With Mahānāma

(2023 FLIPT translation by frankk‍ )

        AN ^6.10.1 - ( Buddh-ānu-s-sati)
        AN ^6.10.2 - ( Dhamm-ānu-s-sati)
        AN ^6.10.3 - ( Saṅgh-ānu-s-sati)
        AN ^6.10.4 - ( Sīl-ānu-s-sati)
        AN ^6.10.5 - ( Cāg-ānu-s-sati)
        AN ^6.10.6 - ( Devat-ānu-s-sati)

(contains detailed explicit 7 awakening factor leading to 4 jhānas)

 

5.26 - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for Freedom

(2023 SP-FLUENT translation by frankk‍ derived from B. Sujato‍ )
    AN ^5.26 - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for Freedom
        AN ^5.26.1 - First jhāna possible while hearing live dhamma talk
            AN ^5.26.1.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
        AN ^5.26.2 - Giving a dhamma talk leads to himself getting jhāna
            AN ^5.26.2.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
        AN ^5.26.3 - Reciting memorized dhamma passage leads to jhāna
            AN ^5.26.3.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
        AN ^5.26.4 - first jhāna possible while thinking and pondering memorized dhamma
            AN ^5.26.4.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
        AN ^5.26.5 - No V&V, undirected samādhi into 2nd jhāna or higher
            AN ^5.26.5.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)

KN Dhp 183 similar to quote (misattributed) to Abraham Lincoln, "When I do good, I feel good..."

 

KN Dhp 183 – (do good, no evil, clean mind)

♦ sabba-pāpassa a-karaṇaṃ,	To avoid all evil,
kusalassa upasampadā .	to cultivate good,
♦ sa-citta-pariyodapanaṃ,	and to cleanse one’s mind—
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.	this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

https://suebrewton.com/2016/01/31/no-that-is-not-what-abraham-lincoln-said/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

excerpt:

✓“When I do good I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad, and that’s my religion.”

Unknown
Herndon’s Lincoln: The True Story of a Great Life, volume III, chapter XIV
William H. Herndon and Jesse William Weik

According to Herndon (Lincoln’s friend and law partner), Lincoln attributes this quote to an old man named Glenn in Indiana.  Since there have been multitudes of people named Glenn in Indiana and no other identifying information is provided, we can only attribute this quote to unknown. 

bug: MS microsoft excel and libre office calc for those who use spreadsheets to do pali + english translation

 

In case anyone else uses libre office calc or Microsoft excel spreadsheet to do pali + english translation

(so things are lined up neatly side by side)

I frequently will cut an entire column (for example English) and paste into a text editor like notepad++ (plain text editor but with richer regex) 

do some editing in notepad++ then copy that back into the spreadsheet.

The bug is, 

the English text I have in the sample above, somehow either the brackets (), {},  [], or *********, or perhaps tabs or some other invisible characters,

 or some combination of all of the above causes the copy buffer clipboard, when moving from notepad++ back into excel spreadsheet,

Will read that entire block of 12 lines back into the spreadsheet as ONE single line.

Which screws up the pali + english side by side alignment for the entire file.

I have the entire AN 5 collection of suttas (hundreds) at  8000+ lines of pali + english,

and it was a nightmare to figure out what was the problem.

At first, I thought it was libre office bug,

so I tried out microsoft excel, same problem.

A day and half later I finally tracked down the problem.

Another issue: Non breaking spaces

They look like a regular ' ' (space), but they're an invisible character that joins the strings on either side of it, so that computers treat it as a single word.

For example "butt head" appears to be two words.

But if I put a non breaking space between "butt" and "head", computers treats that as a single word.

This happened with some sutta central source files from pali (and maybe english) in the past.

Maybe they've fixed it, maybe not.

But the problem it caused on my end, with side by side pali + english in a table, is that the non breaking spaces would create giant long words, causing a huge table imbalance with 90% of the width of the table for one over the other, instead of 50/50.

Simple fix to replace non-breaking spaces with normal space:

with regex, search for \s   [any white space code]

and replace with ' ' [single normal space]

more complicated but correct precise fix:

 with a decent text editor, search for the hex number of the unicode for non breaking space, and replace it with one 

How to distinguish real Buddha's jhāna when all these teachers contradict each other?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comments/19edw82/is_there_gonna_be_absolute_lack_of_awareness_of/

level 5

lucid24-frankk

·just now

Imagine you wear permanent googles filled with muddy water.

If you pacify your movements, the mud settles down and you can see clearly.

How can you ever do vipassana/insight if you can't see clearly?

The Buddha's definition of first jhāna is the pacification of body and mind needed to be able to lucidly see, to the extent that chasing objects of sensual desire leads to suffering, and that letting go of that desire leads to physical and mental joy.

It's a huge milestone in seeing the inherent suffering in existence and how most beings pursue happiness.

Non-Buddhist and corrupt Buddhist definitions of jhāna do not address that problem. You can be a yoga master who can stay in a disembodied frozen stupor for 8 hours at a time, but when you emerge, you still have your cravings, delusions, anger, etc.

Many monks who mastered this kind of disembodied "jhana" have disrobed, married, etc.

That's how you can tell the difference between a genuine Buddha's first jhāna and false ones.

Common misundestandings of satipaṭṭhāna's vedana (sensations) and Dhamma (teachings that lead to nirvana)

 

Posted by

u/TheWayBytheway

4 days ago

4Foundations of mindfulness(clarification needed)

Question

Although the explanation of 4foundations is simple, I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

1. “Awareness of the mind in the mind”. Why is it not said just “Awareness of the mind.” ? If they are not the same thing, what would make them different?

2. Also, “awareness of phenomena of the mind in the mind”. I need the same clarification.

3. I also need to understand the difference between awareness of “objects of the mind(phenomena)” and awareness of “the mind” itself. Everything the mind perceives is an object. Isn’t it? So when we say “awareness of the mind” we are actually referring to its objects. So what is the difference?

Please either explain to me or introduce me a good video or book that targets my questions.

Thank you.

level 1

lucid24-frankk

·3 days ago

this short explanation with sutta references clears up many of the misconceptions on the topic:

https://lucid24.org/tped/l/lll/index.html#8.7

and this one:

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/09/wagging-dhamma-kn-ud-110-bahiya-sutta.html

explains why 4th frame Dhamma is the Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana, not "phenomena", "things", or "qualities".

level 2

TheWayBytheway

OP·3 days ago

Thank you for the link. I just read few pages of it awhile ago and found its language straight forward and direct to the point. It has some wit also in some parts that i found helpful. :)

Although reading all these different translations and their interpretation  I am getting more and more confused now which is the correct one…

In previous translations that I read ,the second foundation was introduces as awareness of feelings. In your link it is awareness of sensations. It just made my whole previous understanding questionnable. Sensation and feeling are not the same in my understanding. From what I read before, I got the understanding it is talking about feelings that come to heart which can affect the mind (such as likes and dislikes, hatred, jealousy etc). Now this translation is talking about sensation which is completely different thing…

Moreover when it comes to 4th foundation, other translations say “awareness of the phenomena” or “awareness of the objects of the mind”. I understand the link you shared is saying “awareness of the dhamma” and you are saying this is the correct translation. But the funny confusing thing I encountered is that someone else also shared a link in this post which translates the 4th foundation just as exactly as “awareness of dhamma”. BUT the thing is that link says dhamma word here IS Not referring to Buddha teachings. In contrary, the one you shared is saying Dhamma word IS referring to buddha teachings…

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level 3

lucid24-frankk

·12 min. ago

“awareness of the dhamma” and you are saying this is the correct translation

Dhamma is not a translation of the word the buddha used, "Dhamma". It's leaving it untranslated. The term 'Dhamma' is a highly ambiguous word, so the best practice is to leave it untranslated and leave it to the listener to disambiguate, just as the Buddha intended. When translators force feed their INTERPRETATION on you with their translation of the term 'dhamma' (into 'phenomena' or something else wrong), then it can have serious consequences.

There are a few cases where the term 'dhamma' of 4th satipatthana fits better with 'phenomena' rather than Dhamma [Teaching], but those are in the vast minority if you look at all the passages where tha t occur. The vast majority of the cases Dhamma [the Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana' ] is the much better fit, and a fair number of the instances both meanings [phenomena and teaching] would work.

Which is how Bodhi and other translators can justify to themself their wrong translation.

But if you leave Dhamma untranslated as I and a few others have done, then you are blameless because you represented the Buddha with 100% accuracy and intent.

How do I know I'm right in interpreting Dhamma of 4th satipatthana Buddha's teaching that leads to nirvana? Look at the last 4 instructions of the 16 steps of breath meditation, which are explicitly said to represent the 4th frame of satipatthana. They are:

13) anicca: impermanence

14) virāga: dispassion

15) nirodha: cessation

16) patinissagga: release

The last two are a synonym for the third noble truth, cessation of suffering, nirvana.

See Dhamma cakka pavattana sutta, under 3rd noble truth:

What is cessation of suffering?

yo tassa yeva tanha ya asesa

virāga, nirodho. patinissaggo, mutti anālayo.

It's the complete dispassion, cessation, release of craving.

The 4th frame of satipatthana in the 16 steps of breath meditation explicitly are describing Dhamma anu passana, the "seeing" of Dharma (not "awareness" of "phenomena").

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level 3

lucid24-frankk

·2 min. ago

In previous translations that I read ,the second foundation was introduces as awareness of feelings. In your link it is awareness of sensations. It just made my whole previous understanding questionnable.

Always question authority. Until you're fully awakened, everything is hearsay, and we can only keep researching and updating our understanding.

The authoritative understanding of Vedana is SN 36.

https://lucid24.org/sn/sn36/index.html

OUt of the 31 suttas in that SN collection, these suttas all say anatomical body is the cause of vedanasuttas SN 36.4, SN 36.6, SN 36.7, SN 36.12, SN 36.13

3 types of vedana can arise at the 6 sense doors (eyes, ears... mind).

Pleasant, unpleasant, neutral.

Your first contact is the physical sensation, and then a mental 'feeling' interprets that sensation contacted at the sense door as either pleasant, painful, or neutral.

SN 48.37 states that

https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn48/index.html#48.37

vedana includes both a physical and mental component.

But vedana arises from the body, so the sensation comes first.

The problem with translating vedana as 'feeling', is many people, as you've done, wrongly misunderstand it to be purely a psychological mental reaction, or pure emotion devoid of physical sensation.

vedana as 'sensation' makes more clear the physical origin.

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