Wednesday, October 25, 2023

Violent shaking during meditation


Re: Violent shaking during meditation

Post by frank k » 

Akashad wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:13 amHi all,

Anyone knows why there is violent shaking during meditation.I've been staying with the Breath for 2 days off the cushion 24/7 + 1-2 hour sitting meditation and my body is violently shaking to the point where I had to stop meditating.Its almost like Parkinsons involuntary tremblings.I thought maybe I am just in a bad angle but I noticed even with a straight posture it starts trembling from within in waves then just violent waves all over my's too much.Like an earthquake.I have experienced this before but stopped meditating for awhile and now that I picked it up again the strong vibrations are shaking me.

Anyone has any theory or idea why?

I don't shake in my normal day to day life only when I am meditating.

Thank you.
This is jhāna constipation, perfectly normal. ... index.html

Getting a proper mix of daily physical exercise with cardio, yoga, stretching, accupressure in problem areas, will help dissolve energetic blockages faster and more smoothly than doing only static meditation postures and living a sedentary lifestyle as most modern people.
Taiji quan + qigong, or a good Chinese internal martial art is going to be more effective, because you're learning to incorporate jhāna simultaneously with exercise movements, whereas people doing regular exercise and regular activities are habitually tense all the time (blocking jhāna and the shaking you experience).

Try different static postures as well, for example standing normally, standing with all your weight on one leg with other leg completely relaxed, having arms raised, etc., lying down in lion posture, lying down on your back, sitting in chair versus sitting on floor, etc..
Comparing how the shaking differs with these different static postures may give you some insight into where your major blockages are.

The fastest way to cure jhana constipation is celibacy, noble silence (passaddhi / pacification awakening factor with a minimum of verbal thoughts), and daily physical exercise described above.

The way to drag on the condition a long time, years, decades, is live like normal worldlings.
Indulging in sensual pleasures, sex, food, drinking, talking, socializing, partying, gambling, etc., drains your jhana battery instead of charging it up.
But indulgence in sensual pleasures also decreases jhanic force, so bodily shaking during meditation can also stop eventually because the jhanic force is getting weaker, and the current in your jhana battery is getting weaker so it's less force and less current pushing around your body.

Follow the 8 precepts though, celibacy with noble silence, builds up your jhana battery by increasing the intrinsic internal energy, and increasing the jhanic force of the currents. The jhanic force and jhanic current of energy will gradually dissolve all of your energetic blockages on its own, just as SN 54 describes with no detail, and shaking will stop, gradually smoothing out over time.
Then the strong jhanic force and strong current will feel like the four jhana similes of AN 5.28.

Follow the wordly way of indulging in sensual pleasures, you lower your jhanic ceiling to having occasional small fits of first jhana and painful bodily shaking instead of second jhana and higher.

Tuesday, October 24, 2023

who gets reborn in the staff of torturers in hell?

Question Posted by
u/lucid24-frankk20 hours ago

Serious question.

What exactly is the nature of the staff of workers (not just ones who torture) that keep hell running smoothly?

Are they mentally created non-sentient beings that do the torture,

or are the staff members of hell sentient beings that are reborn there to serve for a period of time?

If latter is the case,

is it considered good karma, bad karma, or neutral karma to be reborn there?

I can imagine some beings who are hell bent on revenge (pun intended), would not mind being reborn in hell as a staff member to finally get payback on some being who they were wronged by.

Especially if they could resolve the length of time they wish to be serve there.

Do hell staff members experience suffering? Are they forced to work continuously?

Along the same line of questioning, what is the nature of second class beings reborn in deva realms?

For example the service animals, The royal elephants, horses, etc.?

What kind of karma results in that kind of rebirth?

do some beings aspire for that rebirth, or is it result of incomplete merit, not qualifying for rebirth as a first class citizen in a deva realm?

Forum discussion

Why do many of you seem to assume the entire staff of hell consists of torturers who enjoy torturing?

I've always assumed there must be all kind of denizens that keep hell running smoothly.

And why do you assume the workers that keep the prisoners of hell in line all have to torture prisoners and enjoy the torture?

Have you not heard of prison security guards in the human realm?

Not all of them enjoy seeing prisoners suffer, or doing anything deliberate to provoke more suffering for others.

Vasubandhu argues #1, a no-longer extant sutra translated into Chinese (likely sometime before the 5th century) and preserved in a liturgical text argues #2, laying out the backstory that King Yama his the eighteen head wardens were once the rulers of a kingdom which was being attacked.

At their dying moment, their minds, overcome by spite, wished to torture their enemies for eons to come, and by that spiteful wish, they became reborn as the wardens of hell. In this state, they get to torture others, but they themselves are tortured by the instruments of their own torture. Three times a day, King Yama's mouth is pried apart by burning hot hooks and molten copper flows down his throat and burns him inside out. As long as they hold onto their spite, they will continue existing in such a form.

Alternatively, you can think of this as entirely metaphorical for the karmic result of holding onto spite (immensely harmful to both self and other), or you can see it as a curious question to which Buddhists developed varying answers.

From Dan Lusthaus' page on Vasubandhu, under his review of The Twenty Verses:

In an intriguing example, Vasubandhu argues that the torturing guards in hell are not real beings but communal projections by hell denizens with which they torture themselves, since it is illogical that one would be born into hell unless one deserved it based on one's previous actions, and if so, then one would not be immune to hell's tortures--but the guards don't suffer, they mete out suffering. The implication of his argument is that hell itself is merely a paranoid projection. If one wished to make a similar point about intersubjective grouping of interpretations, one could use a common, if scatological example: the difference in the ways humans and flies respond to excrement. Flies flock to it, while humans revile it as filthy and disgusting. Each views excrement according to the life condition, the sort of genetic programming and communal attitude collectively adhered to by its own species. Each takes its interpretation to accurately reference the intrinsic nature and qualities of the thing itself, rather than recognizing that the horizons of such interpretations are karmically conditioned.

And from Ācārya Malcolm:

The physical existence of hell realms are generally negated in Mahāyāna. They are experiences one can be born into, but they do not exist underground, and further, it is argued that they cannot be real places because the hell guardians would reap untold negative karma if they were anything other than mental projections. So, in essence, we have to understand the hell realms are just extremely negative mental states that last eons, with no physical location. This includes Vajra Hell, which is just another name for Avici Hell.

There is no physical location for the eighteen hells and the temporary hells. They are experienced as if they are real by someone who takes apparitional birth in a mental body, similar to a bardo being. However, if you are born in a hell realm, you will experience it as real and physical.

This also explains why, when in hell, one cannot see other beings there, apart from hell guardians. One can only hear the wails of other beings in hell, which are basically means they are also your projections.

Lam Rim texts talk about it. They discuss projecting and finishing karmas.

A projecting karma is a karma which dictates the realm that you're born into.

A finishing karma is one that fills in what the rest of that realm is like.

Another interesting example is pet dogs. Beings who planted a lot of seeds for ignorance will be reborn as an animal, but if they were kind and helpful to people, they might be reborn as a golden retriever and a nice person's home instead of a suffering dog on the streets of bylakuppe.

Similarly, the lords of hell were cruel and so they were born into hell realms, but they also rendered service to others giving them the karmic result of power.

I heard a story once and don't remember where, I think possibly it was from Master Thich Nhat Hanh.

But the story is about our wonderful Buddha's past lives.

In one of his past lives the Blessed One was born in hell and was enduring great suffering.

In that hell it was only the Blessed One, another person that also suffered and a hell warden.

Here you can read the story.

I assume hell wardens are people who have been severely abused in a past life and have been put in hell by other people, and now they're repaying the abuser or others who have abused them in past lives. That's how I understand it.

Wednesday, October 18, 2023

handy link to correct mikenz spam botting jhāna information


Re: Absorption Jhana vs. Aware Jhana

Post by frank k » 

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 amHi Emptyset,

This is a frequently-argued question and it is unfortunate that is is sometimes expressed as "sutta vs visuddhimagga".

Several discussions of how "absorbed" the jhana that the Buddha taught, based on early texts, are linked by Ven Dhammanando's post here:

See also Bhikkhu Analayo: "A Brief History of Buddhist Absorption", Mindfulness, 2020, 11.3: 571–586. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... yjhana.pdf


Deja Vu.
Mike, are you a real person, or an AI bot spamming fake news/misinformation on jhāna whenever the topic comes up?
We've had this exact same discussion many times now.
I've shown in detail how Analayo's understanding of jhāna in his book you quoted is based on fallacious reasoning here: ... index.html
(in short, Analayo uses circular reasoning. Like saying the Bible is true because God said so in the bible.)

I've done a very detailed analysis of how the Buddha's jhāna is radically different than Buddhaghosa's redefinition of jhāna in Vism. here: ... index.html

The threads you link from Ven. Dhammando are not only outdated, but biased with proponents of the Vism. redefinition of jhāna who cherry pick a handful of passages and ignoring the bulk of sutta passages that contradict them.

I have comprehensive research on every single instance of vitakka in the suttas here: ... index.html
which show that in first jhāna they must be linguistic, verbal, communicable language.

All the suttas on hearing sounds (and mentally processing them) is here:
Just reading one sutta alone, DN 21, which explicitly states the Buddha being interrupted while in 'jhāna' by a musician singing,
is enough to show the 'sutta jhāna' and Vism.'s redefined "jhāna" are qualitatively completely different animals.
I annotate exactly where the jhāna and hearing are happening in DN 21 so even Mike can't miss it.

And the collection of sutta passages analyzed here show the Buddha's jhāna can not be a frozen disembodied stupor as Vism. redefines it. ... ml#tophead
24/7 samādhi 1 – Book 1: 4 Jhānas🌕 ≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna🐘
24/7 samādhi 2 – Book 2: Jhāna🌕 + samādhi in all 4 postures🚶
24/7 samādhi 3 – Book 3: Samādhi & jhāna all the time 24/7
24/7 samādhi 4 – Book 4: Upasampajja Viharati: Attains and lives doing Jhāna samādhi
24/7 samādhi 5 – Book 5: You can hear 👂🌄sounds in all 4 jhānas, not just the first. Which samādhis are silent?
24/7 samādhi 6 – Book 6: Rūpa is not a-rūpa. Duh! 🛇👻 4 jhānas are not a-rūpa

Bhante Gunaratana's current views on jhāna

Bhante Gunaratana had incorrect views based on Vism., but his phd thesis containing that is still widely circulated.
30 years later, he published a new book with his new views.

Do you think it's proper to keep sharing links to old outdated views abandoned by people
without also sharing their updated one?

His current views on jhāna here: ... dex.html#5

Forum discussion

(7 months after Mike last repeated the same spam)

crime of omission: 6 year old boy who shot elementary school teacher, whistleblower to tried to warn principal at least twice was ignored


She confronted a 6-year-old seconds after he shot his teacher

In an interview with the Washington Post, Amy Kovac describes for the first time holding the child after he shot and wounded his first-grade teacher

By Justin Jouvenal

August 9, 2023 at 7:01 p.m. EDT

Amy Kovac was approaching Abigail Zwerner’s first-grade classroom at Virginia’s Richneck Elementary School the moment a 6-year-old student pulled out a gun.

The reading specialist said in an interview with The Washington Post that she heard the blast from the hallway and thought:

 “Oh my God.”

 Suddenly, the door to Zwerner’s classroom burst open and panicked students ran out.

Zwerner, who had been shot through the hand and in her shoulder and was bleeding badly, followed.

Kovac, 54, said instinct kicked in.

 She went into the classroom.

 She said the boy looked proud.

“I did it,” Kovac said the boy told her.

 “I shot the b---- dead.”

The account is the first time Kovac has spoken publicly about the Jan.

 6 tragedy in the Newport News school that generated nationwide attention and outrage after teachers alleged that officials ignored multiple warnings on the day of the shooting that the boy had a gun.

 The incident ultimately led to the ouster of Newport News’s superintendent and criminal charges for the six-year-old’s mother, and a special grand jury is investigating the actions of administrators and others before and during the incident.

School downplayed warnings about 6-year-old before teacher’s shooting, staffers say

Kovac said she found the six-year-old standing next to his first-grade desk.

 She recognized him — he had been her one-on-one reading student since the start of the year.

 His arms were crossed, and a handgun lay on the floor next to him.

Kovac said the moment was chilling, but she calmed her nerves, took the boy by the hand and led him to the front of the classroom, where she used a phone to call 911. She then sat at Zwerner’s desk holding the boy in her arms for three minutes until police arrived.

 It seemed like an eternity.

Skip to end of carousel

The Richneck Elementary shooting:

 What we know

    The mother of the 6-year-old who shot his teacher has pleaded guilty to child neglect, authorities said.

    The Virginia teacher who was shot by a 6-year-old is no longer with the school district, according to a spokeswoman.

    Retracing the Richneck shooting:

 How did a Virginia school fail to stop a 6-year-old from shooting his teacher?

    Staffers say that Richneck Elementary downplayed educators’ warnings about the 6-year-old’s behavior.

 The student’s mother said her son has ADHD.

    How often do elementary students bring guns to school and shoot someone?

 The accused 6-year-old student isn’t the first.

    Confused about firearms?

 Here’s what to know about Virginia’s gun laws.


End of carousel

“While I was holding him, he told me he had gotten his mom’s gun the night before and put it in his backpack,” Kovac said.

 “He also told me he only had time to load one bullet.”

Zwerner later filed a $40 million lawsuit against school officials, and the boy’s mother, Deja Taylor, pleaded guilty to federal charges related to the case.

 She is expected to plead guilty to a second set of state charges next week.

Kovac said she has remained quiet until now because she wanted the focus to be on Zwerner, 26, who was gravely injured in the shooting and has gone through a number of surgeries.

 Kovac, a 30-year teaching veteran, said she did not take a day off after the tragedy because she wanted to support her fellow Richneck teachers and the school community.

 She is now working at a different school.

“I wanted all the attention and healing power to go to Abby because this should never happen to a teacher,” Kovac said.

‘I thought I had died’:

 Teacher recounts shooting by 6-year-old student

Kovac said that she began working with the boy in September and that they had a good rapport.

 She said he had difficulties severe enough that the boy’s mother or father attended class with him every day, but just before the shooting, he seemed to be improving.

 The boy’s mother has said publicly he has attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.

The week of the shooting, the boy’s parents stopped attending school with him because of his progress, Kovac said.

 The boy was having trouble at the end of the day — just before his parents picked him up — on Tuesday and Wednesday that week, Kovac said.

On Wednesday, the boy smashed Zwerner’s phone, apparently upset over a scheduling change, according to text messages Zwerner sent to a friend.

 Kovac said the boy was suspended from school for a day over the incident.

When he returned to school on Friday, the day of the shooting, Kovac said she saw the boy for the first time around noon as students were coming back from lunch.

 Zwerner had said earlier in the day that the boy was having trouble.

 Kovac said the boy ran up to her and gave her a hug.

“He said, ‘I love you,’” Kovac said.

 “I said, ‘Are you having a good day?

 Make good choices.’

The boy moved on to his classroom.

 A short time later, Kovac said two girls ran out and told her the boy had a gun in his backpack.

 Kovac said she went into the classroom and sat with the boy for a long time and twice asked him if he had a gun.

 She said the boy replied he did not.

“I’m angry because people are picking on my friend,” Kovac recalled the boy saying.

Kovac said she left and told an assistant principal, Ebony Parker, about the reports of a gun.

 Parker and her attorney have not responded to requests for comment.

 Parker, whose actions became the focus of a law enforcement investigation that is now being run by a special grand jury in Newport News, resigned after the shooting.

Kovac said Zwerner texted her a short time later that they were outside at recess, and she believed the boy had taken something out of his backpack before leaving the classroom.

 Kovac said she went to Zwerner’s classroom and searched the boy’s backpack, but did not find the gun.

Kovac said that she again reached out to Parker and told her the boy might have taken the gun out to recess, but that Parker told her the boy had “little pockets,” implying he couldn’t have a gun.

 Kovac said she made one more report to Parker that she was concerned about the boy before the shooting occurred at 2 p.

m., as school was winding down.

The boy brought the gun to school in his backpack, and it belonged to his mother, authorities have said.

 James Ellenson, an attorney for the boy’s family, said Taylor has reached a deal with the Newport News commonwealth’s attorney to plead guilty to one count of felony child neglect and should get a sentence of up to six months in jail.

 Her plea hearing is on Tuesday.

She is scheduled to be sentenced in October in the federal case related to the purchase of the gun used in the shooting.

 The Newport News prosecutor has said he does not intend to charge the boy with a crime because of his age.

“The child has had extreme emotional issues,” Ellenson said.

 “He’s still in therapy.

 We wish to thank all the professional people that work with him.”

Kovac said she is still grappling with the shooting, but she’s back in the classroom and will remain there.

“It’s been life-changing,” Kovac said of the shooting.

 “I feel sadness all around.”

Jim Morrison contributed to this report.

Tuesday, October 17, 2023

What's on your nirvana bucket list?

 What's on your nirvana bucket list?

Before you become an arahant, attain final nirvana,

what are some things you would like to do?

#1 on my list, I'd like to converse with the Brahmas of the nonreturner realm (I don't want to be reborn there! Too long of a lifespan) and ask them some question about Dhamma and kamma, since they have such a long life span (hundreds of aeons) many of the residents have seen many Buddhas come and go.

a. What was the defining event(s) that ended each Buddha's dispensation?

b. Since the Brahmas of the nonreturner realm have a such long lifespan, they have much deeper direct seeing of the effects of kamma.

Just as rich white collar criminals who commit nonviolent crimes but harm millions of people seem to escape punishment in this life but surely must suffer some negative consequence,

what happened to Buddhist monastics who corrupted the Dhamma knowingly and intentionally, but were overall very virtuous? Especially monastics who had key roles in ending a buddha dispensation, or whose actions in corrupting Dharma created a Buddhism that was not evil, but definitely not the original Buddhism from that Buddha? You would not expect these monastics to end up in hell with violent criminals, and you wouldn't necessarily think violent bad luck would happen to them in the deva realms they were reborn in (such as getting life cut short), but you'd think something very bad must be a fruit of that karma of corrupting the Buddha's pure Dharma.

#2 on my list, I'll visit a short list of family and close friends reborn in various realms, check on their spiritual progress, make sure they're not being slackers and playing around in the deva realms instead of working towards enlightenment, say my final good byes and wish them good luck and speedy progress.

#3... that's it. nothing else on my list.

🔗📝notes on right action, sammā kammanto


how does right action, right speech, precepts and vinaya account for crimes of omission?

how does right action, right speech, precepts and vinaya account for crimes of omission?

crimes of commission = doing wrong actions such as lying, killing, etc.
The standard definitions of right action and right speech have this covered.
But what about crimes of omission?

Crimes of omission are crimes that happen as a result of one deliberately not performing an action that would prevent the crime from happening.

For example, by deliberately not telling people something you know to be true, as a direct result they are harmed, tortured, or killed.

A text book legal example of crime of omission:

if one walks past a car collision and can see that both parties are severely injured, yet makes no attempt to help nor call emergency services. This failure to act could be seriously damaging to the lives of others and may even be fatal.

Most Buddhists tend to think by abstaining from any action (not just abstaining from wrong actions), they automatically keep precepts purely.

how does right action, right speech, precepts and vinaya account for crimes of omission?

I don't know the answer to this question.
I do know that many things I've witnessed in my life, by my personal standards of morals and ethics I would consider them to be crimes of omission, 
but by legal standards, would not be considered legally a crime,
or by Buddhist precepts and vinaya, probably would not be considered wrong or entail any offense by vinaya.

What do you guys think?

Example cases of crimes of omission

Ven Bhikkhu Analayo gives the example (Compassion and Emptiness in Early Buddhist Meditation) of going by a traveler who became sick midway on their journey. The town they left behind is distant as is the next town ahead but one doesn't stop to render aid. Instead one feels sympathy and compassion and has kind thoughts toward the traveler. (AN III 189) According to this account, by having thoughts of not wishing harm but not actually doing anything satisfies an act of compassion. The traveler could fall down dead later. It wouldn't be a "crime" in the Vinaya.

Forum discussion

Lying, vocalizing a falsehood, as well as

not vocalizing and speaking out truth when it's appropriate to do so can directly lead to torture, killing, and great harm.

For example, people promoting a corrupt Dhamma teaching from a very popular monk,

and people who know for a fact it's corrupt and wrong but don't speak out to warn others,

are enabling the spreading the corrupted Dharma and also incurring great harmful karma to themselves.

Just as one example, you can think of many others.

The main point, is abstaining from wrong actions is not enough.

Abstaining from doing right actions at the right time, can lead directly to killing, mass harm, torture, etc.

Most Buddhists tend to think by abstaining from any action (not just abstaining from wrong actions), they automatically keep precepts purely.

The factor of effort is predominantly one of positive action in the vinaya, so not acting does not result in an offense in most cases. There are offenses in the vinaya that are a result of not acting or speaking, but the scope of the rules are narrow.

Some examples.

There is the rule against monks not helping a fellow sick monk.

There is Pacittiya 12, which is about not answering questions regarding accusations of misconduct.

Pacittiya 64, which is about not informing another monk of a serious offense committed by another monk.

For Parajika 1 there is an scenario in which effort is not a factor, but rather consent. If an woman engages in the act of sex with a monk who lays perfectly still (so not acting), what determines the offense is the mental state of consent.


Ajahn Chah tells an inspiring story of a teacher seeing danger in the slightest fault

 Stillness Flowing 2.3.2 -Seeing the Danger

That year, 1947, Wat Khao Wongkot also played host to a senior monk, originally from Cambodia, who was to leave a deep impression on Luang Por.
This monk possessed the distinction of being proficient in both the academic study of Buddhist doctrine and the practice of meditation – an unusual accomplishment in Thailand where an unfortunate split had long existed between the scholar-monks and the meditators.
For the most part, the scholars did not meditate and the meditators did not study;
consequently, neither group held the other in very high esteem.
However, this monk (whose name has not been recorded and henceforth will be referred to as Ajahn Khe) was blessed with a remarkable memory for the intricacies of the Discipline and profundities of the Discourses (Suttas)[19]. At the same time, he adhered to the life of a tudong monk, most at ease surrounded by the natural silence of forests, mountains and caves.

One night during the retreat, there occurred an incident that Luang Por found so inspiring that, years later, he would often relate it to his disciples.
Ajahn Khe had kindly offered to help Luang Por with his study of the Vinaya.
Following a long and fruitful session one late afternoon, Luang Por, having taken his daily bath at the well, climbed up the hill to practise meditation on its cool, breezy ridge.
Sometime after ten o’clock, Luang Por was practising walking meditation when he heard the sound of cracking twigs and someone or something moving towards him in the darkness.
At first, he assumed it was a creature out hunting for its dinner, but as the sound got closer he made out the form of Ajahn Khe emerging from the forest.

Luang Por:
Ajahn, what brings you up here so late at night?

Ajahn Khe:
I explained a point of Vinaya to you incorrectly today.

Luang Por:
You shouldn’t have gone to all this trouble just for that, sir.
You don’t have a light to show the way;
it could have waited until tomorrow.

Ajahn Khe:
No, it could not.
Suppose for some reason or other I was to die tonight and in future, you were to teach other people what I explained to you.
It would be bad kamma[20] for me and for many others.

Ajahn Khe carefully explained the point again and once he was certain that it had been clearly understood, returned into the night.
Luang Por had often noted the phrase in the texts describing the sincere monk as one who ‘sees the danger in the smallest fault’.
Here, at last, was someone who paid more than lip service to that ideal, who genuinely felt the closeness of death and who possessed such scrupulousness that it made him willing to risk climbing a treacherous mountain path in the middle of the night.
It was a powerful and memorable lesson.