mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 amHi Emptyset,
This is a frequently-argued question and it is unfortunate that is is sometimes expressed as "sutta vs visuddhimagga".
Several discussions of how "absorbed" the jhana that the Buddha taught, based on early texts, are linked by Ven Dhammanando's post here: viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317
Deja Vu. Mike, are you a real person, or an AI bot spamming fake news/misinformation on jhāna whenever the topic comes up? We've had this exact same discussion many times now. I've shown in detail how Analayo's understanding of jhāna in his book you quoted is based on fallacious reasoning here: https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html (in short, Analayo uses circular reasoning. Like saying the Bible is true because God said so in the bible.)
The threads you link from Ven. Dhammando are not only outdated, but biased with proponents of the Vism. redefinition of jhāna who cherry pick a handful of passages and ignoring the bulk of sutta passages that contradict them.
I have comprehensive research on every single instance of vitakka in the suttas here: https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html which show that in first jhāna they must be linguistic, verbal, communicable language.
All the suttas on hearing sounds (and mentally processing them) is here: https://lucid24.org/tped/s/samadhi/smd247/index.html#5 Just reading one sutta alone, DN 21, which explicitly states the Buddha being interrupted while in 'jhāna' by a musician singing, is enough to show the 'sutta jhāna' and Vism.'s redefined "jhāna" are qualitatively completely different animals. https://lucid24.org/dn/main/dn21/index.html#tophead I annotate exactly where the jhāna and hearing are happening in DN 21 so even Mike can't miss it.
And the collection of sutta passages analyzed here show the Buddha's jhāna can not be a frozen disembodied stupor as Vism. redefines it. https://lucid24.org/tped/s/samadhi/smd2 ... ml#tophead 24/7 samādhi 1 – Book 1: 4 Jhānas ≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna 24/7 samādhi 2 – Book 2: Jhāna + samādhi in all 4 postures 24/7 samādhi 3 – Book 3: Samādhi & jhāna all the time 24/7 24/7 samādhi 4 – Book 4: Upasampajja Viharati: Attains and lives doing Jhāna samādhi 24/7 samādhi 5 – Book 5: You can hear sounds in all 4 jhānas, not just the first. Which samādhis are silent? 24/7 samādhi 6 – Book 6: Rūpa is not a-rūpa. Duh! 🛇 4 jhānas are not a-rūpa
Bhante Gunaratana's current views on jhāna
Bhante Gunaratana had incorrect views based on Vism., but his phd thesis containing that is still widely circulated. 30 years later, he published a new book with his new views.
Do you think it's proper to keep sharing links to old outdated views abandoned by people without also sharing their updated one?
Link to lucid24.org home page : 4👑☸ Remember, you may have to click the refresh button on your web browser navigation bar at to get updated website. 2026 1-30 Overhauled the DN, MN, SN menu pages - Supreme navigation January 30, 2026 2025 12-16 2025-12 December: Major update on look and feel of Lucid24.org 2024 9-17 Lots of new stuff in the last 2 and a half years. Too many to list. Main one justifying new blog entry, is redesign of home page. Before, it was designed to please me, super dense with everything in one master control panel. I've redesigned it to be friendly to newbies and everyone really. Clear structure, more use of space. At someone's request, I added a lucid24.org google site search at top of home page. 2022 4-14 Major update to lucid24.org, easy navigation of suttas, quicklink: the ramifications 4-2 new feature lucid24.org sutta quick link 3-28 A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think 🔗📝notes relat...
What these 3 suttas have in common, AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111, is the very interesting feature of explicitly describing doing vipassana, while one is in the jhāna and the first 3 formless attainments. LBT (late buddhist text) apologists, as well as Sujato, Brahm, claim that the suttas describe a jhāna where one enters a disembodied, frozen state, where vipassana is impossible until one emerges from that 'jhāna'. Since Sujato translated all the suttas, let's take a look at what he translated, and how it supports his interpretation of 'jhāna'. AN 9.36: Jhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net) ‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ ‘Paṭhamampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? Take a mendicant who, q uite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskill...
HHDL = His holiness, the Dalai Lama I've collected good references here, including the actual video, and snippets from forums discussions containing valid critcism and explanations of cultural context, and most importantly, what the rules of the actual vinaya that buddhist monks are supposed to follow: 1min. video: Dalai Lama kissing boy and asking him to suck his tongue At the time of this writing, HHDL is about 88 years old. He has an exemplary record devoting his life to compassionate service to all living beings, as a Tibetan Buddhist monk. In this age of 'me too', everyone with a cell phone with high resolution cameras, and the ability to quickly publicize any indiscretion or sexual crime, we've seen sexual predators in positions of power being exposed and convicted. Leaders of large corporations, governments, professional sports, doctors, leaders in all religions. Tibetan Buddhism has an especially poor track record with corrupt sexual predators. https://thewal...
≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna
sounds in all 4 jhānas, not just the first. Which samādhis are silent?
4 jhānas are not a-rūpa
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