Thursday, February 29, 2024
4th jhāna physical pain and pleasure and neutral. Jhāna doesn't have special nervous system set aside for it
Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain
Post by frank k » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:40 am
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:06 pm...I think you understood what I meant by "tradition" and "absorbed".
I suspect what you might mean, but am not sure.
If you're asking what a legitimate EBT interpretation of 4 jhāna formula means,
MN 111 and MN 137 make it absolutely clear there's a physical body experiencing physical pain, pleasure, neutral.
MN 137 differentiates between upekkha of four jhānas as equanimity towards the 6 sensory gates of the physical body,
as opposed to upekkha of formless which is equanimity based on singleness (ekatta) which does not references the 5 bodily senses.
So MN 137 is saying upekkha of 4 jhanas is equanimity towards whatever is arising through bodily sense doors.
Which can't happen in a Vism. REdefined "jhana" being a frozen disembodied stupor.
You can hear sounds in all four jhanas, not just the first.
You can feel pain if someone pokes you with a pin all in 4 jhanas.
If the pain is strong enough or sound is loud enough, it can knock you out of 4th jhana or 1st jhana.
If it's mild, no big deal you can ignore.
There's a bodily transformation and jhana battery capacity change that happens over years.
Body gets softer, sensations get smoother, the more the jhana battery is charged up the more neither pain nor pleasure vedana is predominant.
Sukha pleasure faculty (physical) happens when the jhana battery is low.
Exactly the same happens with eating food.
When need is urgent to intake nutrients, you get high dosage of sukha (physical pleasure) when you eat and you're starving.
When you're full, not hungry anymore but you still eat, then you get upekkha and adukkham asukham neutral physical sensation and equanimity mentally.
If you keep eating even when you're stuffed, then you'll get physical pain.
There isn't some special nervous system and new set of pleasure hormones set aside for jhana.
It's the same sukha physical pleasure you experience from sex or eating food when you're hungry.
Same nervous system, same hormones and pleasure chemicals in the brain.
That's why you hear so many religious traditions with mundane jhana experience described as full body orgasm.
Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain
Post by frank k » Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 am
...
you asked: why does someone in the 4th Jhāna not feel pain if an insect bites him?
and I responded one DOES feel pain in 4th jhana, because the 5 senses operate.
if the pain is overwhelming, it knocks one out of 4th jhana.
If it's mild pain, one can ignore it.
Vimuttimagga, which is also based on Abhidhamma, supports an EBT based interpretation of sutta jhana.
Their defn. of "access" and "absorption" appana samadhi is different than Vism.
Vimt. uses a straightforward meaning of "sound is a thorn in jhana", and it also mentions sitting a long time leg pain can cause one to exit jhana, which agrees with exactly how I answered your original question.
"access" in vimt. is the same as EBT MN 19 where one over thinks causes body to be tired.
appanaa samadhi in vimt. means one's focus is locked in, never gets interrupted by 5 hindrances.
...
Wednesday, February 28, 2024
parimukha in breath meditation: case closed
Re: An Anapanasati Question
another post noting that the parimukha instruction also appears before instructions to do metta and brahmaviharas
Re: An Anapanasati Question
So you're saying brahma gods, who don't need to eat food or breathe, suddenly grow a nose, lungs, and start watching a breath at their nose when they do metta and brahma viharas?
case closed
parimukha is not literal, but figurative here. This is absolutely certain, because that term is used in these other meditations that have nothing to do with the nostril.
Do you need to watch the breath at the nose to abandon 5 hindrances? Or do metta? Or watch defilements vanish?
https://lucid24.org/tped/p/parimukha/book/index.html
excerpt
Scriptural evidence; all of the practices below cannot be undertaken when mindfulness is affixed at mouth-nose:
EA17.1, the practice of contemplating on the inconstancy of the five aggregates is described, prefaced by the parimukham expression: “專精一心，念色無常，念痛、想、行、識無常”; “He diligently collects his mind, and contemplates on/brings to his mind that form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness are inconstant.”
DN25 (iii49), MN39, AN9.40, speaks of the expression “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti” as in “overcoming hindrances”
AN3.63, as in the “divine abodes”
AN3.63, as in realizing that one’s defilements have been eradicated
MN91, as in setting the mind on the welfare of oneself and others.
SN54.7: Mahā-kappina was practicing anapanasati, with “parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti.” He experienced the quaking, or spontaneous tremor of the body as a disturbance. The Buddha instructed him to practice “anapanasati: the contemplation on abandoning, with parimukhaṃ satim upatthapeti”
Ud5.10: “And on that occasion Ven. Cūḷa Panthaka was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, with mindfulness established to the fore…With steady body, steady awareness—whether standing, sitting, or lying down—a monk determined on mindfulness gains one distinction after another. ”
None of the above can be undertaken when attention is affixed at nose-mouth.
Another interesting point: the “early of the early” seem to not include this “parimukha” instruction in the standard meditation formula altogether (Ud21, 42, 43, 46, 60, 71, 77)
Mindfulness is not attention. Mindfulness is remembrance of one’s purpose, directionality, task…:
AN7.63: “Just as the royal frontier fortress has a gate-keeper — wise, experienced, intelligent — to keep out those he doesn't know and to let in those he does, for the protection of those within and to ward off those without…In the same way a disciple of the noble ones is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. With mindfulness as his gate-keeper, the disciple of the ones abandons what is unskillful, develops what is skillful, abandons what is blameworthy, develops what is blameless, and looks after himself with purity. With this sixth true quality is he endowed.”
To say that one should direct one’s mindfulness to a spatial location simply doesn’t make sense. Practitioners have to put the Teaching in front (mukha), i.e. invoke it in mind; It is akin to “gatekeeping” because the act of remembering the Dhamma is both to preserve it and to be preserved by it (śrutidharā). When one does mindfulness of the body, what one does is really not simply directing attention and affixing it to the body, but rather being mindful of body-related issues within the context of appropriate attention (e.g. practicing it with the purpose of preserving bodily ease, preventing bodily fever, and of inducing disenchantment…).
Friday, February 23, 2024
8m vid: Chinese Diplomat in austria who saved thousands of jews by writing visas
4bv☮️ Bank🏦: Bank of Brahma viharas - inspiring stories, videos to power your practice of metta and 4bv
Also ignites your pīti pamojja (mental joy, rapture, rejoicing in skillful Dharmas) to power your jhāna.
Saturday, February 17, 2024
hiri + otappa = shame and dread, not "conscience and prudence"
hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṃ
ind. to conceal the genitals; lit. for the purpose of covering the shameful private parts [hirikopīna + paṭicchādana + attha + aṃ] ✓
MN 2.3.1 (Robes to ward off cold and heat, mosquitos...)
Katame ca, bhikkhave, āsavā paṭisevanā pahātabbā? | And what are the asinine-inclinations that should be given up by using? |
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭisaṅkhā yoniso cīvaraṃ paṭisevati: | Take a monk who, reflecting properly, makes use of robes: |
‘yāvadeva sītassa paṭighātāya, uṇhassa paṭighātāya, ḍaṃsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassānaṃ paṭighātāya, yāvadeva hirikopīnappaṭicchādanatthaṃ’. | ‘Only for the sake of warding off cold and heat; for warding off the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles; and for covering the private parts.’ |
A nun or monk wears a robe so they don't walk around naked.
If someone grabbed their robe and tore it, off, would they feel "shame" because their private parts are exposed?
or would they feel "conscience"?
The word otappa has the root √tap which means really hot
otappati pr. is heated; becomes warm [ava + √tap] ✗
Do you "fear" touching a hot stove?
Do you "dread" touching a hot stove?
Or do you feel "prudence" when touching a hot stove?
"conscience and prudence" is a really poor translation of hiri and otappa
It loses the emotional charge, the urgency, the warning of dire consequences that hiri and otappa are supposed to protect you from.
On a nuclear power plant, you want to see clear, bright signs warning of extreme dangers.
Not a discrete, hidden, camoflauged sign, small lettering, hard to read, saying "conscience and prudence should be exercised."
I can only guess Sujato chose "conscience and prudence" because of emotional baggage from theistic religions with unskillful understandings of 'sin', 'shame', etc.
If you're contemplating actions of killing, stealing, raping, lying, that's a nuclear reactor that needs bright urgent signs. You should feel shame, fear, dread, not conscience and prudence.
If you're going to a tea party with your friends, and you're worried about what to wear or what kind of snack to bring will cause any offense, that's "conscience and prudence."
AN 7.67 hiri and otappa (shame and fear of wrong doing): more "noble disciple" absurdity from most translators
I've translated ariya-savaka correctly here, but imagine we're using the wrong translation of "noble disciple" and think about the implications.
7.67.3.2 - (hiri/sense-of-shame → moat deep and wide)
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare parikkhā hoti gambhīrā ceva vitthatā ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya. | Just as a fortress has a moat that is deep and wide, |
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako hirīmā hoti, hirīyati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, hirīyati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā. | In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has a proper sense of shame. They’re ashamed of bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and ashamed of having any bad, unskillful Dharmas. |
Hirīparikkho kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti; | A noble-one's-disciple with shame as their moat gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful, |
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti; | they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless, |
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati. | and they keep themselves pure. |
Iminā dutiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (2) | This is the second true Dharma they have. |
7.67.3.3 – (otappa/dread wrong-doing → patrol path)
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare anupariyāyapatho hoti ucco ceva vitthato ca abbhantarānaṃ guttiyā bāhirānaṃ paṭighātāya. | Just as a fortress has a patrol path that is high and wide, |
Evamevaṃ, kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ottappī hoti, ottappati kāyaduccaritena vacīduccaritena manoduccaritena, ottappati pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ samāpattiyā. | In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has dread. They dread bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and they dread acquiring any bad, unskillful Dharmas. |
Ottappapariyāyapatho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaṃ pajahati, kusalaṃ bhāveti; | A noble-one's-disciple with dread as their patrol path gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful, |
sāvajjaṃ pajahati, anavajjaṃ bhāveti; | they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless, |
suddhaṃ attānaṃ pariharati. | and they keep themselves pure. |
Iminā tatiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (3) | This is the third true Dharma they have. |
What if that 'noble disciple' is an arahant or non-returner?
1. An arahant has completely uprooted any greed, aversion, and ignorance. It's impossible for them to form an action for them to be ashamed about, or to dread doing and fearing consequence.
2. A non returner has uprooted greed and aversion, they're also not capable of doing things for which they would feel shame or dread wrong doing.
So really, the only class of "noble disciples" who need to possess the factors of hiri and otappa (shame and dread) are stream enterers and once returners.
Conclusion
ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones, not "noble disciple" (an enlightened being of 4 classes).
A disciple MAY be noble, but from the many sutta passages similar to this passage AN 7.67, it's obviously addressed to a majority of people who are not enlightened and still working on purifying their mind and actions.
I've recently been working on Chinese Agama translations to English with google translate, and guess what?
google translate and other AI engines wrongly translates the Chinese version of 'ariya savaka' as "noble disciple".
AI is only as good as the source it's trained on, and if most translators are wrong, your output is going to be wrong.
It's important to do things correctly when it's this straightforward and obvious.
If you don't notify translators and voice your opinion, then the problems are only to get worse.
Tuesday, February 13, 2024
AN 7.69 Buddha only allows ariya noble ones to ordain as monks? Really?
AN 7.69 Buddha only allows ariya to ordain as monks? Really?
Such is the majesty of the Shady Orchid Tree.
In the same way, when a noble disciple plans to go forth from the lay life to homelessness, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when its leaves turn brown.
B. Bodhi makes same mistake
(1) “So too, bhikkhus, when a noble disciple intends to go forth from
the household life into homelessness, on that occasion he is one whose
foliage has turned yellow, like the Tāvatiṃsa devas’ pāricchattaka coral
tree.
MA 2: BDK translation, Agama chinese parallel, same problem
https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/bdk/index.html#2
Again, [when the buds of] the coral tree of the thirty-three gods have opened up and resemble bowls, the thirty-three gods are happy and rejoice:
“The coral tree wil soon be in ful bloom!”
When the coral tree is in ful bloom, the radiance it emits, the color it reflects, and the fragrance it emits spread a hundred leagues around.
Then, for the four months of the summer season the thirty-three gods amuse themselves equipped with the five types of divine sense pleasure.
This is [how] the thirty-three gods assemble and amuse themselves beneath their coral tree.
It is just the same with the noble disciple.
When thinking of leaving the household life, the noble disciple is reckoned as having withered leaves, like the withered leaves of the coral tree of the thirty-three gods.
Again, the noble disciple shaves off [his] hair and beard, dons the yel ow robe, and, out of faith, leaves the household life, becomes homeless, and practices the path.
At this time the noble disciple is reckoned as one whose leaves have fal en, like the fal ing of the leaves of the coral tree of the thirty-three gods.
Conclusion
Ariya savaka = Disciple of the Noble Ones, not necessarily a noble one themself.
Pali and Chinese both ambiguous in how ariya-savaka can be interpreted, but logic and context dictate there's only one way to translate it correctly if you're going to translate it consistently everywhere.
Tuesday, February 6, 2024
What is ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: [an arahant] liberated both ways?
What is ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: liberated both ways?
short answer: An arahant who has not only 4 jhānas, but also formless attainments.
An arahant who is only wisdom liberated (pañña vimutti) only has 4 jhānas.
comprehensive answer:
MN 64 categorically states arhantship or nonreturner not possible without 4 jhānas
MN 64.7 - (Seven paths for cutting 5 lower fetters are the 4 jhānas, and first 3 formless attainments)
MN 64.8 - (difference between ceto-vimutti and pañña vimutti)
all the suttas (10) that talk about 'liberated' both ways
ubhato-bhāga-vimuttā: liberated both ways (10 suttas)
AN 2.48 just talks about assemblies with true Dharma and spirituality and those without
AN 7.56 talks about how arahant after death can't be seen by humans or gods
AN 8.22 just list of 7, when gods tell Buddha about type of assembly
AN 9.47 need all 9 attainments to be freed both ways in "definitive sense"
The first 8 attainments only "qualified sense"
DN 15 liberated both ways must have all 8 vimokkha (which includes formless)
DN 28 just named as part of list of 7
DN 33 just named as part of list of 7 persons worthy of a religious donation
MN 65 doesn't shed any light
MN 70 explicit in saying they have to have formless attainments
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo ubhatobhāgavimutto?
And what person is freed both ways?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.
MN 70 peaceful liberations (santā vimokkhā, or vihāra) is a synonym for formless attainmnents, not 4 jhānas)
MN 70 pañña vimutti liberated by wisdom doesn't have formless attainment
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo paññāvimutto?
And what person is freed by wisdom?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te na kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
It’s a person who does not have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.
From other suttas like MN 64, we know 4 jhānas are non negotiable requiremnets for arahantship
SN 8.7 of 500 arahants, 60 freed both ways
“There is nothing, Sāriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.
Imesañhi, sāriputta, pañcannaṁ bhikkhusatānaṁ saṭṭhi bhikkhū tevijjā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū chaḷabhiññā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū ubhatobhāgavimuttā, atha itare paññāvimuttā”ti.
For of these five hundred monks,
sixty have the three knowledges,
sixty have the six direct knowledges,
sixty are freed both ways,
and the rest are freed by wisdom.”
10 suttas talk about this term
https://find.dhamma.gift/result/ubhato.vimutt_suttanta_pali_10-20.html
AN 2.48 doesn't shed any light
just talks about assemblies with true Dharma and spirituality and those without
AN 7.56 doesn't shed any light
https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhato.*vimutt&q=an7.56#7.1
talks about how arahant after death can't be seen by humans or gods
AN 8.22 just list of 7, when gods tell Buddha about type of assembly
Anacchariyaṁ kho pana, bhante, saṅghe nimantite devatā upasaṅkamitvā ārocenti: It’s not unusual for deities to come to me when the Saṅgha has been invited and announce:‘asuko, gahapati, bhikkhu ubhatobhāgavimutto asuko paññāvimutto asuko kāyasakkhī asuko diṭṭhippatto asuko saddhāvimutto asuko dhammānusārī asuko saddhānusārī asuko sīlavā kalyāṇadhammo asuko dussīlo pāpadhammo’ti. ‘Householder, that mendicant is freed both ways. That one is freed by wisdom. That one is a personal witness. That one is attained to view. That one is freed by faith. That one is a follower of teachings. That one is a follower by faith. That one is ethical, of good character. That one is unethical, of bad character.’
AN 9.47 need all 9 attainments to be freed both ways in "definitive sense"
The first 8 attainments only "qualified sense"
Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṁ tathā tathā naṁ kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṁ pajānāti. They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. And they understand that with wisdom.Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ubhatobhāgavimutto vutto bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed both ways in a definitive sense.”
DN 15 liberated both ways must have all 8 vimokkha (which includes formless)
Yato kho, ānanda, bhikkhu ime aṭṭha vimokkhe anulomampi samāpajjati, paṭilomampi samāpajjati, anulomapaṭilomampi samāpajjati, yatthicchakaṁ yadicchakaṁ yāvaticchakaṁ samāpajjatipi vuṭṭhātipi. When a mendicant enters into and withdraws from these eight liberations—in forward order, in reverse order, and in forward and reverse order—wherever they wish, whenever they wish, and for as long as they wish;Āsavānañca khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharati, ayaṁ vuccatānanda, bhikkhu ubhatobhāgavimutto. and when they realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements, they’re called a mendicant who is freed both ways.Imāya ca, ānanda, ubhatobhāgavimuttiyā aññā ubhatobhāgavimutti uttaritarā vā paṇītatarā vā natthī”ti. And, Ānanda, there is no other freedom both ways that is better or finer than this.”
DN 28 just named as part of list of 7
And moreover, sir, how the Buddha teaches the description of individuals is unsurpassable.Sattime, bhante, puggalā. There are these seven individuals.Ubhatobhāgavimutto paññāvimutto kāyasakkhi diṭṭhippatto saddhāvimutto dhammānusārī saddhānusārī. One freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of teachings, a follower by faith.
DN 33 doesn't shed any light
Satta puggalā dakkhiṇeyyā— Seven persons worthy of a religious donation:ubhatobhāgavimutto, paññāvimutto, kāyasakkhi, diṭṭhippatto, saddhāvimutto, dhammānusārī, saddhānusārī. one freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of teachings, and a follower by faith.
MN 65 doesn't shed any light
https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhato.*vimutt&q=mn65#11.2
MN 70 explicit in saying they have to have formless attainments
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo ubhatobhāgavimutto? And what person is freed both ways?Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.
MN 70 pañña vimutti liberated by wisdom doesn't have formless attainment
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo paññāvimutto? And what person is freed by wisdom?Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te na kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. It’s a person who does not have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, their defilements have come to an end.
From other suttas, we know 4 jhānas are non negotiable requiremnets for arahantship
SN 8.7 of 500 arahants, 60 freed both ways
https://find.dhamma.gift/sc/?s=ubhatobh%C4%81gavimutt%C4%81&q=sn8.7#4.4
“There is nothing, Sāriputta, that these five hundred monks have done by way of body or speech that I would criticize.
Imesañhi, sāriputta, pañcannaṁ bhikkhusatānaṁ saṭṭhi bhikkhū tevijjā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū chaḷabhiññā, saṭṭhi bhikkhū ubhatobhāgavimuttā, atha itare paññāvimuttā”ti.
For of these five hundred monks, sixty have the three knowledges, sixty have the six direct knowledges, sixty are freed both ways, and the rest are freed by wisdom.”
Sunday, February 4, 2024
🔗📝Upasika Kee Nanayon
Ebook of her talks
4👑☸ Cattāri Ariya-saccaṃ 四聖諦
Up.K.Nanayon 0 - An Unentangled Knowing
Up.K.Nanayon 1 - PART I: Looking Inward
Up.K.Nanayon 2 - Part II: Breath Meditation Condensed
Up.K.Nanayon 3 - Part III: Going Against the Flow
Up.K.Nanayon 4 - Part IV: A Good Dose of Dhamma for Meditators When They Are Ill
Up.K.Nanayon 5 - Part V Reading the Mind
Up.K.Nanayon 6 - Part VI: Pure & Simple
Up.K.Nanayon 7 - Glossary
🔗📚epub and mobi versions
Audio recordings of some of her talks
Samaneri Jayasāra recordings:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19wvVkqnNa1YFKg6RnRd4tAFD5K_RoBgGa few more on youtube
SN 36.11 vāca is vocalized speech, not mental talk: vocalization ceases in first jhāna, not vitakka
The Ajahn Brahm, Sujato and Vism. camp have a difficult time explaining what SN 36.11 means when it says speech (vāca) ceases in first jhāna.
(9 gradual vūpasama/stillings, same as nirodho list)
atha kho, bhikkhu, mayā | “And I have also {taught} |
Anu-pubba-saṅkhārānaṃ vūpasamo akkhāto. | Step-by-step-co-doings being stilled. |
(in 4 jhānas one can perceive rūpa ✅ 🚶)
1. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa | 1. (with) first jhāna attained, |
🚫🗣️💬 vācā vūpasantā hoti. | 🚫🗣️💬 vocalization-of-speech has been stilled, |
2. dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa | 2. (with) second jhāna attained, |
🚫(V&V💭) vitakka-vicārā vūpasantā hoti. | 🚫(V&V💭) directed-thought-&-evaluation has been stilled, |
3. tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa | 3. (with) third jhāna attained, |
🚫😁 pīti vūpasantā hoti. | 🚫😁 rapture has has been stilled, |
4. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa | 4. (with) fourth jhāna attained, |
🚫🌬️😤 assāsa-passāsā vūpasantā hoti. | 🚫🌬️😤 in-breath-out-breath has been stilled, |
1. Does it need to be said deaf people can't hear sounds in first jhāna?
1. If you're already disembodied in (their corrupt redefinition of) first jhāna, 5 senses shut off and unable to speak, why would the Buddha say in SN 36.11 that speech ceases?
It's like saying in first jhāna, a deaf man can't hear sounds. A deaf man can't hear sounds anywhere, any time. It's a useless thing to say they can't hear in first jhāna.
Therefore, the first jhāna is not a disembodied state where the mind is divorced from 5 senses of the body.
2. So what can we do? Let's redefine another important basic term!
2. So what can Sujato and Brahm do, faced with this conundrum? Their usual bag of tricks.
Redefine vāca to not be vocalized speech, but mental talk, unvocalized verbal thoughts.
If they can redefine body as "not physical body", and "verbal thought (vitakka)" as "not verbal thought, but placing a mind on a visual kasina", that has a cascading effect where they have to start redefining a bunch of other terms.
So now vāca in first jhāna according to them means verbal thoughts.
This is completely incoherent.
In an oral tradition, sati memorizes Dhamma in the form of vitakka, a communicable verbal linguistic language communicated by means of vocalization (vāca), hearing, and memorizing.
AN 5.26 shows all of this going in on, for first jhāna context.
AN 5.26 - AN 5.26 Vimuttāyatana: Opportunities for FreedomAN 5.26.1 - First jhāna possible while hearing live dhamma talk
AN 5.26.1.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
AN 5.26.2 - Giving a dhamma talk leads to himself getting jhāna
AN 5.26.2.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
AN 5.26.3 - Reciting memorized dhamma passage leads to jhāna
AN 5.26.3.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
AN 5.26.4 - first jhāna possible while thinking and pondering memorized dhamma
AN 5.26.4.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
AN 5.26.5 - No V&V, undirected samādhi into 2nd jhāna or higher
AN 5.26.5.7 - (refrain: 7sb☀️ → jhāna → arahantship)
You can't have vāca redefined as 'unvocalized mental talk' in SN 36.11 and have it make sense in AN 5.26. Speech needs to be vocal, thought needs to be verbal linguistic mental talk.
Another sutta with first jhāna context,
● AN 7.61 Pacalāyamāna: Nodding Off
Buddha teaches Moggallana 7 ways to fight off drowsiness
(1. don’t attend to the perception that made you drowsy)
(2. Recall dhamma using V&V💭, thinking and evaluation, and upekkha)
(3. Recite that dhamma out loud, vocally)
(4. Pull your earlobes and rub your limbs)
(5. Stand up, wash eyes with water, look at stars in sky)
(6. STED ASND 🌕🌟: luminosity perception all day all night)
(7. Start walking meditation)
(Lie down in lion posture as last resort)
(don’t sociaize with lay people too much, causes restlessness)
(don’t say confrontational things)
(Buddha praises secluded meditation areas)
(conclusion: brief summary of path to arahantship)
In the 7 ways to ward off drowsiness, #3 involves vāca, vocalized speech, reciting Dharma.
That's distinctly different from #2, mentally reciting the Dhamma, energetically less intensive than vocalization. The 7 steps get progressively more energetic.
Vāca (pāḷi), Vox (latin), Voice / vocalization (English) have common Indo Euro root
Mental speech is not vocalized speech.
A normal person can't hear mental talk.
Vocal cords need to vibrate and emit sound for someone to hear it.
This is true in pāli, true in latin, true in English, true in any oral tradition using the basic unambiguous fundamental terms to denote the difference between speech, language, and linguistic mental talk.
You can't arbitrarily redefine vocal speech to mean mental speech,
and you can't redefine linguistic verbal thought into "no verbal thought, just placing mind on a kasina".
Suttas and vinaya (monastic rules of discipline) become incoherent and unenforceable
If you allow Sujato and Brahm to have their way of redefining important key words to justify their corrupt redefinition of jhāna,
The entire collection of suttas and vinaya becomes broken and incoherent.
The Buddha frequently contrasts kāya (physical body) action against the actions of vāca (speech), and mano (mental) action.
They are 3 distinctly different types of actions with 3 distinctly different karmic consequences.
In Sujato and Brahm world, you can't tell what kind of action it is, you can't enact any kind of monastic rule.
This article I wrote focused on their ambiguation of kāya, but the same example shows how speech also needs to be differentiated from thought.
Saturday, February 3, 2024
SN 35.247 Chappāṇak-opama: six animals, nice illustration
Illustration by Barry Bruner, Tricyle Magazine Summer 2007
https://lucid24.org/sn/main/sn35/index.html#35.247
SN 35.247 Chappāṇakopama: The Simile of Six Animals
247. Chappāṇakopamasutta | 247. The Simile of Six Animals |
“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso arugatto pakkagatto saravanaṃ paviseyya. | “monks, suppose a person with wounded and festering limbs was to enter a thicket of thorny reeds. |
Tassa kusakaṇṭakā ceva pāde vijjheyyuṃ, sarapattāni ca gattāni vilekheyyuṃ. | The kusa thorns would pierce their feet, and the reed leaves would scratch their limbs. |
Evañhi so, bhikkhave, puriso bhiyyoso mattāya tatonidānaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvediyetha. | And that would cause that person to experience even more pain and distress. |
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, idhekacco bhikkhu gāmagato vā araññagato vā labhati vattāraṃ: | In the same way, some monk goes to a village or a wilderness and gets scolded: |
‘ayañca so āyasmā evaṃkārī evaṃsamācāro asucigāmakaṇṭako’ti. | ‘This venerable, acting like this, behaving like this, is a filthy village thorn.’ |
Taṃ kaṇṭakoti iti viditvā saṃvaro ca asaṃvaro ca veditabbo. | Understanding that they’re a thorn, they should understand restraint and lack of restraint. |
Kathañca, bhikkhave, asaṃvaro hoti? | And how is someone unrestrained? |
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā piyarūpe rūpe adhimuccati, appiyarūpe rūpe byāpajjati, anupaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati parittacetaso. | Take a monk who sees a sight with their eyes. If it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted. |
Tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti. | And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. |
Sotena saddaṃ sutvā … | When they hear a sound with their ears … |
ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā … | When they smell an odor with their nose … |
jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā … | When they taste a flavor with their tongue … |
kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā … | When they feel a touch with their body … |
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme adhimuccati, appiyarūpe dhamme byāpajjati, anupaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati parittacetaso, | When they know a thought with their mind, if it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body unestablished and a limited heart. |
tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti. | And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. |
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso chappāṇake gahetvā nānāvisaye nānāgocare daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | Suppose a person was to catch six animals, with diverse territories and feeding grounds, and tie them up with a strong rope. |
Ahiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | They’d catch a snake, |
Susumāraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | a crocodile, |
Pakkhiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | a bird, |
Kukkuraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | a dog, |
Siṅgālaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | a jackal, |
Makkaṭaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | and a monkey, |
Daḷhāya rajjuyā bandhitvā majjhe gaṇṭhiṃ karitvā ossajjeyya. | tie each up with a strong rope, then tie a knot in the middle and let them loose. |
Atha kho, te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā nānāvisayā nānāgocarā sakaṃ sakaṃ gocaravisayaṃ āviñcheyyuṃ— | Then those six animals with diverse domains and territories would each pull towards their own domain and territory. |
ahi āviñcheyya ‘vammikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, susumāro āviñcheyya ‘udakaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, pakkhī āviñcheyya ‘ākāsaṃ ḍessāmī’ti, kukkuro āviñcheyya ‘gāmaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, siṅgālo āviñcheyya ‘sīvathikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, makkaṭo āviñcheyya ‘vanaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti. | The snake would pull one way, thinking ‘I’m going into an anthill!’ The crocodile would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the water!’ The bird would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m flying into the sky!’ The dog would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the village!’ The jackal would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the charnel ground!’ The monkey would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the jungle!’ |
Yadā kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā jhattā assu kilantā, atha kho yo nesaṃ pāṇakānaṃ balavataro assa tassa te anuvatteyyuṃ, anuvidhāyeyyuṃ vasaṃ gaccheyyuṃ. | When those six animals became exhausted and worn out, the strongest of them would get their way, and they’d all have to submit to their control. |
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yassa kassaci bhikkhuno kāyagatāsati abhāvitā abahulīkatā, taṃ cakkhu āviñchati manāpiyesu rūpesu, amanāpiyā rūpā paṭikūlā honti … pe … | In the same way, when a monk has not developed or cultivated rememberfulness of the body, their eye pulls towards pleasant sights, but is put off by unpleasant sights. Their ear … nose … tongue … body … |
mano āviñchati manāpiyesu dhammesu, amanāpiyā dhammā paṭikūlā honti. | mind pulls towards pleasant thoughts, but is put off by unpleasant thoughts. |
Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, asaṃvaro hoti. | This is how someone is unrestrained. |
Kathañca, bhikkhave, saṃvaro hoti? | And how is someone restrained? |
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā piyarūpe rūpe nādhimuccati, appiyarūpe rūpe na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso, | Take a monk who sees a sight with their eyes. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body established and a limitless heart. |
tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti … pe … | And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. |
jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā … pe … | They hear a sound … smell an odor … taste a flavor … feel a touch … |
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme nādhimuccati, appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyassati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso, | know a thought with their mind. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with rememberfulness of the body established and a limitless heart. |
tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti yatthassa te uppannā pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti. | And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. |
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso chappāṇake gahetvā nānāvisaye nānāgocare daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | Suppose a person was to catch six animals, with diverse territories and feeding grounds, and tie them up with a strong rope. |
Ahiṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | They’d catch a snake, |
Susumāraṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | a crocodile, |
Pakkhiṃ gahetvā … pe … | a bird, |
kukkuraṃ gahetvā … | a dog, |
siṅgālaṃ gahetvā … | a jackal, |
makkaṭaṃ gahetvā daḷhāya rajjuyā bandheyya. | and a monkey, |
Daḷhāya rajjuyā bandhitvā daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā upanibandheyya. | tie each up with a strong rope, then tether them to a strong post or pillar. |
Atha kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā nānāvisayā nānāgocarā sakaṃ sakaṃ gocaravisayaṃ āviñcheyyuṃ— | Then those six animals with diverse domains and territories would each pull towards their own domain and territory. |
ahi āviñcheyya ‘vammikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, susumāro āviñcheyya ‘udakaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, pakkhī āviñcheyya ‘ākāsaṃ ḍessāmī’ti, kukkuro āviñcheyya ‘gāmaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, siṅgālo āviñcheyya ‘sīvathikaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti, makkaṭo āviñcheyya ‘vanaṃ pavekkhāmī’ti. | The snake would pull one way, thinking ‘I’m going into an anthill!’ The crocodile would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the water!’ The bird would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m flying into the sky!’ The dog would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the village!’ The jackal would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the charnel ground!’ The monkey would pull another way, thinking ‘I’m going into the jungle!’ |
Yadā kho te, bhikkhave, chappāṇakā jhattā assu kilantā, atha tameva khīlaṃ vā thambhaṃ vā upatiṭṭheyyuṃ, upanisīdeyyuṃ, upanipajjeyyuṃ. | When those six animals became exhausted and worn out, they’d stand or sit or lie down right by that post or pillar. |
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yassa kassaci bhikkhuno kāyagatāsati bhāvitā bahulīkatā, taṃ cakkhu nāviñchati manāpiyesu rūpesu, amanāpiyā rūpā nappaṭikūlā honti … pe … jivhā nāviñchati manāpiyesu rasesu … pe … | In the same way, when a monk has developed and cultivated rememberfulness of the body, their eye doesn’t pull towards pleasant sights, and isn’t put off by unpleasant sights. Their ear … nose … tongue … body … |
mano nāviñchati manāpiyesu dhammesu, amanāpiyā dhammā nappaṭikūlā honti. | mind doesn’t pull towards pleasant thoughts, and isn’t put off by unpleasant thoughts. |
Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, saṃvaro hoti. | This is how someone is restrained. |
‘Daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā’ti kho, bhikkhave, kāyagatāya satiyā etaṃ adhivacanaṃ. | ‘A strong post or pillar’ is a term for rememberfulness of the body. |
Tasmātiha vo, bhikkhave, evaṃ sikkhitabbaṃ: | So you should train like this: |
‘kāyagatā no sati bhāvitā bhavissati bahulīkatā yānīkatā vatthukatā anuṭṭhitā paricitā susamāraddhā’ti. | ‘We will develop rememberfulness of the body. We’ll cultivate it, make it our vehicle and our basis, keep it up, consolidate it, and properly implement it.’ |
Evañhi kho, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban”ti. | That’s how you should train.” |
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