Skip to main content

AN 7.67 hiri and otappa (shame and fear of wrong doing): more "noble disciple" absurdity from most translators


I've translated ariya-savaka correctly here, but imagine we're using the wrong translation of "noble disciple" and think about the implications. 



7.67.3.2 - (hiri/sense-of-shame → moat deep and wide)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, raƱƱo paccantime nagare parikkhā hoti gambhÄ«rā ceva vitthatā ca abbhantarānaį¹ƒ guttiyā bāhirānaį¹ƒ paį¹­ighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a moat that is deep and wide,
Evamevaį¹ƒ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako hirÄ«mā hoti, hirÄ«yati kāyaduccaritena vacÄ«duccaritena manoduccaritena, hirÄ«yati pāpakānaį¹ƒ akusalānaį¹ƒ dhammānaį¹ƒ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has a proper sense of shame. They’re ashamed of bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and ashamed of having any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
HirÄ«parikkho kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaį¹ƒ pajahati, kusalaį¹ƒ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with shame as their moat gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaį¹ƒ pajahati, anavajjaį¹ƒ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaį¹ƒ attānaį¹ƒ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā dutiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (2)
This is the second true Dharma they have.

7.67.3.3 – (otappa/dread wrong-doing → patrol path)

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, raƱƱo paccantime nagare anupariyāyapatho hoti ucco ceva vitthato ca abbhantarānaį¹ƒ guttiyā bāhirānaį¹ƒ paį¹­ighātāya.
Just as a fortress has a patrol path that is high and wide,
Evamevaį¹ƒ, kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako ottappÄ« hoti, ottappati kāyaduccaritena vacÄ«duccaritena manoduccaritena, ottappati pāpakānaį¹ƒ akusalānaį¹ƒ dhammānaį¹ƒ samāpattiyā.
In the same way a noble-one's-disciple has dread. They dread bad conduct by way of body, speech, and mind, and they dread acquiring any bad, unskillful Dharmas.
Ottappapariyāyapatho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako akusalaį¹ƒ pajahati, kusalaį¹ƒ bhāveti;
A noble-one's-disciple with dread as their patrol path gives up the unskillful and develops the skillful,
sāvajjaį¹ƒ pajahati, anavajjaį¹ƒ bhāveti;
they give up the blameworthy and develop the blameless,
suddhaį¹ƒ attānaį¹ƒ pariharati.
and they keep themselves pure.
Iminā tatiyena saddhammena samannāgato hoti. (3)
This is the third true Dharma they have.


What if that 'noble disciple' is an arahant or non-returner?


1. An arahant has completely uprooted any greed, aversion, and ignorance. It's impossible for them to form an action for them to be ashamed about, or to dread doing and fearing consequence.

2. A non returner has uprooted greed and aversion, they're also not capable of doing things for which they would feel shame or dread wrong doing. 


So really,  the only class of "noble disciples" who need to possess  the factors of hiri and otappa (shame and dread)  are stream enterers and once returners.


Conclusion

ariya-savaka = disciple of the noble ones, not "noble disciple" (an enlightened being of 4 classes).

A disciple MAY be noble, but from the many sutta passages similar to this passage AN 7.67, it's obviously addressed to a majority of people who are not enlightened and still working on purifying their mind and actions.

I've recently been working on Chinese Agama translations to English with google translate, and guess what? 

google translate and other AI engines wrongly translates the Chinese version of  'ariya savaka' as "noble disciple".

AI is only as good as the source it's trained on, and if most translators are wrong, your output is going to be wrong.

It's important to do things correctly when it's this straightforward and obvious.

If you don't notify translators and voice your opinion, then the problems are only to get worse.


Comments

Popular posts from this blog

Advice to younger meditators on jhāna, sex, porn, masturbation

Someone asked: Is porn considered harmful sexual.activity? I don't have a sex life because I don't have a partner and I don't wish to engage in casual sex so I use porn to quench the biological urge to orgasm. I can't see that's it's harmful because nobody is being forced into it. The actors are all paid well and claim to enjoy it etc. The only harm I can see is that it's so accessible these days on smart devices and so children may access it but I believe that this is the parents responsibility to not allow unsupervised use of devices etc. Views? Frankk response: In another thread, you asked about pleasant sensations and jhāna.  I'm guessing you're young, so here's some important advice you won't get from suttas   if you're serious about jhāna.  (since monastics are already celibate by rule)   If you want to attain stable and higher jhānas,   celibacy and noble silence to the best of your ability are the feedstock and prerequiste to tha

SN 48.40 Ven. Thanissaro comments on Ven. Sunyo's analysis

This was Ven. Sunyo's analysis of SN 48.40: https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/05/exciting-news-honest-ebt-scholars-like.html And here is Ven. Thanissaro's response to that analysis: I think there’s a better way to tackle the issue of SN 48:40 than by appealing to the oldest layers of commentarial literature. That way is to point out that SN 48:40, as we have it, doesn’t pass the test in DN 16 for determining what’s genuine Dhamma and what’s not. There the standard is, not the authority of the person who’s claiming to report the Buddha’s teachings, but whether the teachings he’s reporting are actually in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma that you know. So the simple fact that those who have passed the Buddha’s teachings down to us say that a particular passage is what the Buddha actually taught is not sufficient grounds for accepting it. In the case of the jhānas—the point at issue here— we have to take as our guide the standard formula for the jhānas, a

1min. video: Dalai Lama kissing boy and asking him to suck his tongue

To give more context, this is a public event,  * everyone knows cameras are rolling  *  it's a room full of children * the boy's mom is standing off camera a few feet away watching all of this * the boy initiated contact, he had already had a hug with Dalai Lama earlier and then asked Dalai Lama for another hug which triggered this segment  17 min. video showing what happened before that 1 min. clip and after, with some explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT0qey5Ts78 16min talk from Ajahn Acalo with his thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, relevance to Bhikkhu monastic code, sexual predators in religion in general, and how celibate monastics deal with sexual energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2m0TcUib0 The child's comments about the incident in a filmed interview later https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/04/18/643eba5d46163ffc078b457c.html The child: It's a great experience It was amazing to meet His Holiness and I think it's a great ex