4th jhāna physical pain and pleasure and neutral. Jhāna doesn't have special nervous system set aside for it

Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain

Post by frank k » Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:40 am

Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:06 pm...I think you understood what I meant by "tradition" and "absorbed".
I suspect what you might mean, but am not sure.
If you're asking what a legitimate EBT interpretation of 4 jhāna formula means,
MN 111 and MN 137 make it absolutely clear there's a physical body experiencing physical pain, pleasure, neutral.
MN 137 differentiates between upekkha of four jhānas as equanimity towards the 6 sensory gates of the physical body,
as opposed to upekkha of formless which is equanimity based on singleness (ekatta) which does not references the 5 bodily senses.
So MN 137 is saying upekkha of 4 jhanas is equanimity towards whatever is arising through bodily sense doors.
Which can't happen in a Vism. REdefined "jhana" being a frozen disembodied stupor.

You can hear sounds in all four jhanas, not just the first.
You can feel pain if someone pokes you with a pin all in 4 jhanas.

If the pain is strong enough or sound is loud enough, it can knock you out of 4th jhana or 1st jhana.

If it's mild, no big deal you can ignore.

There's a bodily transformation and jhana battery capacity change that happens over years.
Body gets softer, sensations get smoother, the more the jhana battery is charged up the more neither pain nor pleasure vedana is predominant.
Sukha pleasure faculty (physical) happens when the jhana battery is low.
Exactly the same happens with eating food.
When need is urgent to intake nutrients, you get high dosage of sukha (physical pleasure) when you eat and you're starving.
When you're full, not hungry anymore but you still eat, then you get upekkha and adukkham asukham neutral physical sensation and equanimity mentally.
If you keep eating even when you're stuffed, then you'll get physical pain.

There isn't some special nervous system and new set of pleasure hormones set aside for jhana.
It's the same sukha physical pleasure you experience from sex or eating food when you're hungry.
Same nervous system, same hormones and pleasure chemicals in the brain.
That's why you hear so many religious traditions with mundane jhana experience described as full body orgasm.






Re: Abandoning pleasure & pain
Post by frank k » Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 am
...
you asked: why does someone in the 4th Jhāna not feel pain if an insect bites him?

and I responded one DOES feel pain in 4th jhana, because the 5 senses operate.
if the pain is overwhelming, it knocks one out of 4th jhana.
If it's mild pain, one can ignore it.
Vimuttimagga, which is also based on Abhidhamma, supports an EBT based interpretation of sutta jhana.
Their defn. of "access" and "absorption" appana samadhi is different than Vism.
Vimt. uses a straightforward meaning of "sound is a thorn in jhana", and it also mentions sitting a long time leg pain can cause one to exit jhana, which agrees with exactly how I answered your original question.
"access" in vimt. is the same as EBT MN 19 where one over thinks causes body to be tired.
appanaa samadhi in vimt. means one's focus is locked in, never gets interrupted by 5 hindrances.

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