AN 3.63 sujato admits evaṁ-bhūta means one is walking WHILE in 4 jhānas.

 

internal notes:

sutta pali + english: AN 3.63  Venāgapura

external:

AN 3.63 sujato admits evaṁ-bhūta means one is walking WHILE in 4 jhānas.

AN 3.63 Buddha walking WHILE in jhāna, has two close EBT parallels Bhikkhu Sujato missed

forum discussion

dwheel main thread: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41657&p=651508#p651508

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41624&p=651288#p651288

Nicolas wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:00 pm

Venāgapura Sutta (AN 3.63) wrote:I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna [...].

Argument against walking: why does the Buddha bother to collect some grass or leaves into a pile and to then sit down before entering the first jhana?

frankk:
Because it's easier to do sitting jhana in a quiet place than walking jhana in an ordinary noisy place.

Also look at all 3 of the divine beds (1. jhana, 2. brahma vihara, 3. arahant enjoying their lack of defilements).
All 3 of them start with sitting on a pile of leaves.

Do you then think brahma viharas can only be done while sitting, and an arahant can only enjoy and reflect on his lack of defilements while he is sitting?

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41624&p=651291#p651291

robertk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:14 pmFor those with mastery of jhana they can enter and leave at will in split seconds. So of course they can walk while entering and leaving. However this is not possible for someone absorbed in jhana for any length of time.
Sariputta became an arahat while fanning the Buddha and listening to a talk the Buddha gave to another monk- and sariputta , as I understand was also entering and leaving jhana states at this time.

https://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/l ... el090.html

But the Venerable Sariputta continued to stay near the Master, at a cave called the Boar's Shelter (Sukarakhata-lena), depending on Rajagaha for his almsfood. Half a month after his ordination the Blessed One gave a discourse on the comprehension of feelings[6] to the Venerable Sariputta's nephew, the wandering ascetic Dighanakha. The Venerable Sariputta was standing behind the Master, fanning him. While following with his thoughts the progress of the discourse, as though sharing the food prepared for another, the Venerable Sariputta on that occasion reached the acme of "knowledge pertaining to a disciple's perfection and attained to Arahatship together with the fourfold analytical knowledge (patisambhida-ñana)."[7] And his nephew, at the end of the sermon, was established in the Fruition of Stream-entry.[8]

frankk:

I can hear the sighs of relief from all the LBT (late buddhist texts) theravadans who can sleep at night now believing LBT doesn't contradict EBT (early ...).
Confirmation bias and cleverness can find an interpretation that eel wriggles out of any situation.

But ask yourself this.

1. Assuming you're correct, that Sariputta can enter and exit frozen stupor jhana in split seconds, still, what would that look like?
Sariputta would be stumbling around like a drunken fool, spending most of that time exiting and entering with no perception and control of his body.

Why would the Buddha in AN 3.63 be describing a highly skilled LBT redefinition of jhana walk around blissfully, instead of a simple ockhams razor interpretation that people skilled in jhanas can maintain at least a partial jhana and feel the mental and physical bliss while walking?

2. Let's say Sariputta can be a functional LBT jhana drunk, that he isn't stumbling around while walking, that he's able to enjoy the mental and physical bliss of upacara samadhi version of 4th jhana. In other words, he can enter and exit frozen stupor so fast it's negligible.
Then what's the difference between a highly skilled jhana master like Sariputta and an ordinary competent 4th jhana upacara samadhi?
If the sutta describes what sounds like 4th jhana upacara samadhi, have you considered maybe because it is upcara samadhi, and the frozen stupor appana is something completely foreign to the EBT?

Even in Vimuttimagga, which also relies on (an earlier than Vism.) version of Abhidhamma, their appana samadhi jhanas don't preclude body awareness and hearing sounds. In Vimt. appana samadhi means one is fixed in focus on Dharmic perceptions, free of hindrances. It means it's a purified jhana that will not be interrupted by any hindrance. Vism. redefines appana samadhi as a frozen stupor with no volition.