AN 10.72 and KN Ud 3.3 smoking out the gophers, you can hear sounds in the four jhānas

 

KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them

KN Ud 3.3 if they could hear, buddha would have responded to Ānanda talking to him.

♦ tatiyampi kho āyasmā ānando abhikkantāya rattiyā, nikkhante pacchime yāme, uddhaste aruṇe, nandimukhiyā rattiyā uṭṭhāyāsanā ekaṃsaṃ uttarāsaṅgaṃ karitvā yena bhagavā tenañjaliṃ paṇāmetvā bhagavantaṃ etadavoca — “abhikkantā, bhante, ratti; nikkhanto pacchimo yāmo; uddhasto aruṇo; nandimukhī ratti; ciranisinnā āgantukā bhikkhū; paṭisammodatu, bhante, bhagavā, āgantukehi bhikkhūhī”ti.	Then a third time, when the night was far advanced, at the end of the last watch, as dawn was approaching and the face of the night was beaming, Ven. Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, stood facing the Blessed One, paying homage to him with his hands placed palm-to-palm over his heart, and said to him, “The night, lord, is far advanced. The last watch has ended. Dawn is approaching and the face of the night is beaming. The visiting monks have been sitting here a long time. May the Blessed One greet them.”
♦ atha kho bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhahitvā āyasmantaṃ ānandaṃ āmantesi — “sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, jāneyyāsi ettakampi te nappaṭibhāseyya VAR . ahañca, ānanda, imāni ca pañca bhikkhusatāni sabbeva āneñjasamādhinā nisīdimhā”ti.	Then the Blessed One, emerging from his imperturbable concentration, said to Ven. Ānanda, “Ānanda, if you had known, not even that much would have occurred to you (to say).1 I, along with all 500 of these monks, have been sitting in imperturbable concentration.”

Summary of KN Ud 3.3:

This sutta is closely related to AN 10.72 sutta on sound being a thorn to the four jhānas.

It even ends with the udāna verse about 3 thorns ended by an arahant,

The sutta starts with monks making very loud noises and the Buddha being disturbed by the noise, implying that the Buddha was experiencing sound as thorns in the 4 jhānas, just as in AN 10.72 the merchants in their carriages making a loud noise traveling.

The Buddha sends away the 500 noisy monks.

Those 500 monks meditate diligently, and all attain the 3 higher knowledges and imperturbable formless attainments.

The Buddha summons those monks.

Those 500 monks notice that the Buddha is in imperturbable samādhi, and sit down and also enter imperturbable samādhi.

Ānanda goes to the Buddha to announce the arrival of the 500 monks, but the Buddha doesn’t hear him and doesn’t respond.

Ānanda asks a few more times, over the course of the night (about a 4 hour period).

Same results, Buddha doesn’t respond.

Then next morning, the Buddha tells Ānanda, “if you had known that I and the 500 monks were in formless samādhi, you would not have talked to me expecting me to hear and respond to you.”

So to reiterate the two important points:

1. earlier when the 500 monks were not yet arahants, they were noisy and disturbing the Buddha with the noise. Since the Buddha is always in suññata or samādhi (4 jhānas can be a mode of suññata), then the Buddha would obviously be in one of the four jhānas when he heard the monks making loud noises.

2. at the end of the sutta when the Buddha and the 500 monks are in imperturbable samādhi and can not hear Ānanda talking to them, they are in the formless attainments and can not hear sounds. This is why AN 10.72 lists four jhānas as having sound be a thorn, but omits the 4 formless attainments.

3. Important implication: The fact that Ānanda saw the Buddha sitting quietly over the 4 hours entire night, and several times tried to talk to him, means that Ānanda generally expects the Buddha not to be in imperturbable samādhi. Instead, Buddha would typically be in four jhānas the majority or at least a good portion of the typical nightly four hour period. Otherwise Ānanda wouldn’t try to talk to him!

4. Deduction: the imperturbable samādhi here must be the formless attainments, rather than 4th jhāna, since they couldn’t hear Ānanda talking to them.

Forum discussion

Re: AN 10.72 and KN Ud 3.3 smoking out the gophers, you can hear sounds in the four jhānas

BrokenBones wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:25 am

It would be interesting to see how the commentaries explain ... Why Ananda observing the Buddha in meditation expected the Buddha to hear him.

Post by frank k » Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:28 am
My bet is all you'll hear is crickets chirping [sound of silence] from the classical Theravada crowd.
If someone had divine eye and mind reading, I would guess this is the thought process going on in the mind of 'classical' theravadin:

Hmm. Good point. Since one can not hear in [vism. redefined] jhāna, and whether the Buddha was in 4 jhānas or first 3 formless attainments,
either way the Buddha wouldn't be able to hear Ananda.
So why did Ananda ask Buddha several times over a 4 hour period and expected to hear a response from the Buddha?
Therefore the Buddha must have been in a samādhi lower than first jhāna.
But other passages say the Buddha was always in samādhi or suññata (can be any of 4 jhānas, formless, or animitta samādhi).
But if Buddha was just in ordinary below first jhāna samādhi, then that's the same as an ordinary worldling with no jhāna.
Then why would the Buddha point out that he is always in samādhi is it's the same ordinary person's samādhi (below first jhāna)? It doesn't seem a noteworthy thing to mention (MN 36).
But this would still beg the question why Ananda expected the Buddha to respond while in deep meditation.

Well, this contradiction is uncomfortable.
I can't believe the Classical Maha vihara Theravadins could be wrong or contradict the Buddha.
So I'm just going to forget this thread and this sutta ever happened.

cognitive dissonance wins!

I'm just going to quietly disappear and hope the thread goes away.
Or, I'm going to ad hominem Frank and try to shift the focus to Frank is disrespectful to Ajahn Brahm and Sujato and Vism., or get him banned from the forum.
And hope people stop paying attention to or even notice the blatant contradictions in Ajahn Brahm and Vism. redefinition of jhāna and the Buddha's jhāna.