Completely wrong German translations of jhāna formula in Saṁyutta Nikāya

Completely wrong German translations of jhāna formula in Saṁyutta Nikāya

Post by frank k » Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:41 am
From this thread on suttacentral:
Complete German translations of Saṁyutta Nikāya and Itivuttaka
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/co ... taka/28726

I thought that's cool, I wondered how they translated jhāna, so I did a quick check in SN 45.8 which states the noble eightfold path.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/de/sabb ... ript=latin
first jhāna:

Es ist, wenn ein Mönch oder eine Nonne, ganz abgeschieden von den Sinnenfreuden, abgeschieden von untauglichen Eigenschaften, in die erste Vertiefung eintritt und darin verweilt; da gibt es aus Abgeschiedenheit geborene Ekstase und Seligkeit, während man den Geist ausrichtet und hält.
and the google translate has:
It is when a monk or nun, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unfit qualities, enters and abides in the first absorption; there is ecstasy and bliss born of seclusion while directing and holding the mind.So even though I know no German, I do know pāḷi and vitakka and vicāra is definitely not "directing and holding the mind."

Sounds more like Sujato's wrong interpretation of first jhāna [from sujato's english trans.].
Digging further to see what the translator SabbMitta's source is for translation, I found:
First of all there’s of course Bhante @sujato who provides the English translation on which I mostly rely, and the SuttaCentral team who supports us translators in many ways, likeSo anyone who is on SC forum, could you let them know they should make it clear SabbaMitta's translation is to German from Sujato's English, and not from pāḷi, as the pali+german translation view seems to imply.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/de/sabb ... ript=latin

This is how the Dhamma dies.
Whoever is popular, people start translating and understanding according to Sujato's wrong ideas on jhāna.

I wonder how many other of the 15 or so international languages on suttacentral have wrong jhāna because they relied on Sujato's English translation?

AI assisted translation is just going to further corrupt things faster, since whatever is popular and prevalent will influence the AI aided translation.
AI isn't magic, it can't separate right from wrong view. If you put gargage in, you're going to get garbage out.

If you want to preserve True Dhamma, you (I'm talking to all of you Buddhists in the world) have to take a stand and fight back.
You can't just passively stand aside and think you're following right speech by not criticizing wrong views that need to be exposed for what they are.


frank kPosts

Re: Completely wrong German translations of jhāna formula in Saṁyutta Nikāya
Post by frank k » Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:51 am
A note to translator SabbaMitta:

While we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Sujato and suttacentral team for their work in making public domain translations freely and easily obtainable, you should not let that cloud your own judgement and views on the Dhamma.

At the very least, you should follow Bodhi instead of Sujato on their jhāna formula translation.
Bodhi has:

“And what, bhikkhus, is right concentration? Here, bhikkhus, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination,vitakka = thought
vicāra = examination



Re: Completely wrong German translations of jhāna formula in Saṁyutta Nikāya

Post by frank k » Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:31 am
Jesus.
Here's third jhāna: (Sabbamitta german translation based on Sujato's wrong view of jhāna)
And with the fading of ecstasy one enters and dwells in the third jigsaw; there one meditates with equanimity, mindful and circumspect, and personally experiences the bliss of which the noble ones declare: 'Equanimity and mindful one meditates in bliss.'
Und mit dem Schwinden der Ekstase tritt man in die dritte Vertiefung ein und verweilt darin; da meditiert man mit Gleichmut, achtsam und umsichtig, und erfährt persönlich die Seligkeit, von der die Edlen erklären: ‚Gleichmütig und achtsam meditiert man in Seligkeit.

‘kāya is a physical, flesh and blood, rūpa kāya body, not a "personal experience".
https://lucid24.org/tped/l/lll/index.html#8.8.3
 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,
He experiences pleasure with the [physical] body.

8.8.3 - j3🌖 Third Jhāna

🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā	With [mental] rapture fading,
👁 upekkhako ca viharati	he lives equanimously observing [☸Dharmas with subverbal mental processing].
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno,	remembering [and applying relevant ☸Dharma], he lucidly discerns.
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,	He experiences pleasure with the [physical] body.
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti —	The Noble Ones praise this [stage of jhāna in particular because they expect this to be the normal state of the average monk in all postures at all times]:
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti	"He lives happily with pleasure, Equanimously observing and remembering [to engage in relevant ☸Dharma]."
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	he attains and lives in third jhāna.



TOC for details on third Jhāna in book Goldcraft

        Goldcraft ^4.3.3 j3🌖 Third Jhāna
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.1 pītiyā ca virāgā = With [mental] rapture fading
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.2 👁upekkhako ca viharati = he lives equanimously observing
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.3 sato ca sam-pajāno = he is a rememberer and lucid discerner
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.4 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti = senses pleasure with body
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.5 yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti = the noble ones praise this
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.6 ‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ = "He lives happily.…"
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.7 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati = he attains and lives in third jhāna.
            Goldcraft ^4.3.3.22 3rd jhāna misc.