Sunday, April 28, 2024

is nirvana in present moment same as nirvana of arahant after death?

 excerpt from  only 1 way‍ 4.3.10.50 Relevant Suttas on third noble truth and nirvana

Experience of Nibbāna in present moment (before death of arahant)

AN 3.32 similar to AN 10.6 “this is peaceful, exquisite, the setlling of all activities…”, but does not explain how ordinary jhānas and samādhi can experience that nirvana

AN 9.36 while doing 4 jhānas or first 7 perception attainments, one can realize nirvana

amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati
citta touching the deathless property,

AN 10.6 nirvana experienced via a samādhi and perception

* not a samādhi that perceives 4 elements, or 4 formless attainments,…

* Buddha perceives nirvana as “peaceful, exquisite, all activities setlled…”

AN 10.7 Sāriputta gives slightly different explanation than Buddha in AN 10.6

AN 11.7 same as AN 10.6 but one more item added

* (11) And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, cognized, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.

* Sariputta also gives same answer as Buddha in AN 10.6, instead of his unique answer in AN 10.7

AN 11.8 essentially same as AN 11.7, but now gives the key words paying attention (manasi karoti) the same lattitude as the sañña/perception there (to experience nirvana).

* also adds a 12th category to list of exclusion, the 5 sense organs of body and their 5 objects.

AN 11.9 as AN 11.8 added term manasi karoti to samādhi related terms that can perceive Nirvana, this sutta adds “jhāna” and verb jhāyati (do jhāna).

AN 11.18 same as AN 11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN 11.19 same as AN 11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN 11.20 same as AN 11.7 just different speaker and audience

AN 11.21 same as AN 11.7 just different speaker and audience

The point of AN 11.18-21 is to show it’s a common thing for many monks to ask for more detail on the experience of nirvana, and the “this is peaceful…” along with the list of 12 exclusion of what nirvana isn’t, is pretty much the standard accepted answer.

MN 64 same as AN 9.36 but without the archer simile

KN Ud 8.1 nirvana called “āyatana” dimension, referring to the same characteristics as AN 10.6

KN Ud 8.4 (Quoted in MN 144 and SN 35.87, similar passage in SN 12.40 as well)


also see:

etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ (this is peaceful, this is exquisite)

anidassana : unclear if viññāna anidassana is exactly the same as the nirvana that can be perceived by a samādhi in the present moment in the suttas above, or is reserved for nirvana after death of an arahant. In MN 49.9.7 not clear if the Buddha used anidassana as the place where Brahma couldn’t find him, because he used psychic powers to project voice to say to Brahma “you can’t see me.” He could have gone to anidassana, and then switched into a more mundane samādhi with psychic power, or only entered a mundane samādhi to escape from Brahma.

AN 9.37.4.4 uncertain if the special kind of samādhi here is perception of nirvana



million dollar question: is the perception of nirvana from a samādhi in the present moment exactly the same as the experience of nirvana for an arahant after their physical death?

The suttas above make it absolutely clear the present moment nirvana is not just ordinary jhāna doing ordinary vitakka or paying attention to ordinary perceptions of being free of greed, hatred, delusion.

(see the exhaustive lists from AN 11 and AN 10 what what perception of nirvana is NOT)

Framing the question in the title in a better way

(not implying an arahant exists after death)

using the terminology of Iti 44, there are two types of nibbana properties. One with remainder (5 bodily senses active), one without remainder (dead).

You would think the nibbana that ariyas who are alive experience of nibbana with remainder, has some qualitative difference than nibbana without remainder.

However, the sutta passages in AN 10 and AN 11 describing how an arahant can experience nirvana with a type of samādhi and perception, exclude four jhānas, four formless attainments, what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, explored (vicāra), and even 5 bodily senses excluded.

So it would seem in such a state of special samādhi, they are experiencing nibbana without remainder with the 5 bodily senses gone.

Perhaps nirvana with remainder is only referring to when ariya are not in that special samādhi, they enjoy the nibbana of being free of greed, hatred, delusion, but they still have the dukkha that comes with a physical body.







No comments:

Post a Comment