Thursday, November 4, 2021

Is body (kāya) of the first satipatthana the physical body, and the remaining 3 satipatthana all mind?

Someone from Dhammawheel forum asked that question, I can't find the thread, and I doubt anyone answered it.


This kind of question, the person who asked is a long time Theravadin AFAIK, just goes to show how much pernicious influence LBT Theravada and Abhidhamma has had in confusing the most basic and fundamental terms and concepts in core EBT Buddhism. 


To summarize the answer in brief:

1. Yes, body is the physical anatomical body in the 1st satipatthana.

2. citta (the 3rd satipatthana) is mind.

3. Dhamma, is the ☸Dhamma-[teachings] that lead to nirvana as the primary meaning. The process of seeing Dhamma as Dhamma [as it truly is], would necessarily involve working with mental input data (dhamma), but that is not the primary intent of the 4th satipatthana. Remember that sati the simile of the gate keeper of the fortress, is a general skilled in battle and wise in knowing who is friend or foe, who to allow into the fortress. ☸Dhamma-[teachings] is like the general, 'dhamma' is like a foot soldier that  ☸Dhamma can call into service when needed. For further proof, that the 4th satipatthana is ☸Dhamma rather than 'dhamma', look at the last 4 dhamma-anupassana steps of the 16 steps of breath meditation: insight into impermanence, dispassion, cessation, and nirvana. That's ☸Dhamma insight. 'dhamma' is just unskilled labor with no insight of its own,  under the command of ☸Dhamma. 

4. So kaya is the physical body made up of 4 elements, citta is mind, Dhamma is the teaching that leads to nirvana, that leaves vedana, sensation (most often translated as 'feeling'). 

Vedana sensations straddle both the kaya physical body and citta mind. But primarily it originates from the physical body kaya.

Kaya is satipatthana #1, citta is #3, vedana straddles #1 and #3, at position #2. Being sandwiched between #1 and #3 should be a very obviously clue.

One need only read the vedana samyutta to be convinced on this, my translation is annotated where the physical body is involved in most of the critical suttas in there.

● SN 36: 0m, Vedanā Saṃyutta: Feelings / experienced-sensations
(31 suttas)


STED 4sp

kāye kāyā-(a)nu-passī viharati
Body-as-body – continuous-seeing (he) abides-in,
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,
(he is) ardent 🏹, (a) lucid-discerner 👁, (a) rememberer 🐘,
vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;
vanquishing worldly avarice-(and)-distressed-mental-states.
vedanāsu vedanā-(a)nu-passī viharati
Experienced-sensations-(as)-experienced-sensations – continuous-seeing (he) abides-in
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,
(he is) ardent 🏹, (a) lucid-discerner 👁, (a) rememberer 🐘,
vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;
vanquishing worldly avarice-(and)-distressed-mental-states.
citte cittā-(a)nu-passī viharati
Mind-as mind – continuous-seeing (he) abides-in,
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,
(he is) ardent 🏹, (a) lucid-discerner 👁, (a) rememberer 🐘,
vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;
vanquishing worldly avarice-(and)-distressed-mental-states.
dhammesu dhammā-(a)nu-passī viharati
☸Dhamma-[teachings]-as-☸Dhamma – continuous-seeing (he) abides-in,
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,
(he is) ardent 🏹, (a) lucid-discerner 👁, (a) rememberer 🐘,
vineyya loke abhijjhā-do-manassaṃ;
vanquishing worldly avarice-(and)-distressed-mental-states.



forum discussion


https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41752&p=653241#p653241

>What is the "true dukkha nature of the body" and where is it from?

What's your translation of 4 satipatthana formula? And how do you put it into practice, with example (other than breath meditation one you just mentioned).

How I translate and interpret the 4sp formula and put it into practice, SN 56.1, AN 4.41 sati & sampajano and asavakkhaya functionality, and anatta lakkhana sutta instructions all converge. The 4sp is saying the exact same thing as SN 56.1. The difference between the two, is that the observing 5 aggregates is more subtle and not accessable for those with insufficient samadhi and wisdom, whereas the body, mind, sensations is a common reference point applicable at all times in all 4 postures for ordinary person or sekha. It's always about seeing dukkha, cause and realizing the cessation of it. LBT often just adds a bunch of complicated detail and shifts focus into abhidharmic peripheral quests to map out irrelevant details about the universe that have nothing to do with suffering and its cessation.


>The immediate purpose of Satipaṭṭhāna is to develop the seven enlightenment factors. Observation of the body 'in and of itself' in the first Satipaṭṭhāna allows developing the factor of tranquillity (passaddhi). To learn how to make the body tranquil, you have to continuously observe it.

I would frame it differently, that the most important overarching goal is to see dukkha and realizing its cessation. And one does that by always seeing body, sensations,mind, Dharma as they truly are, undistorted, without projecting delusions and fantasies onto raw experience. 7sb bojjhanga are a means to carry out that goal.

Practicing 4sp instructions according to LBT, shifts focus from ending dukkha to practicing each of the 4 frames in isolation from the other 4. I've tried that, and it doesn't work. Take your breath meditation example, for someone relatively beginner but experiencing some first jhana in bits and pieces here and there. If they want to understand how those bits of first jhana are happening, they're going to have to use all 4 frames as needed when needed to understand what's going on in their meditation and develop the knowledge to recreate success. If they adamantly stay in kaya body frame to the exclusion of the other 4, they're not going to learn anything, just develop some samatha focusing skill.




1 comment:

  1. In maha sathipathana sutrya. The Sathipttanaya consist of 04 parts.The Kaynupassana is consist of 14 Pabbayas.The 1st Pabbaya is Anapana Sathi.This is

    Degan va asssantho degan assamathi pajanathi
    Degan va passasantho degan passasamathi pajanathi
    Rasaan va assasantho rassan assamathi pajanathi
    Rassan va passasantho rassan passasamathi pajanathi
    Sabba kaya patisanvedi assasisamathi sikkathi
    Sabba kaya patisanvedi passisamathi sikkathi
    Pasman bayan kaya sankaran assasisamathi sikkathi
    Pasman bayan kaya sankaran passasisamathi sikkathi

    If there is a long in breath aware this with idea of extinguishmet.
    similarly if there is long out breath aware this with idea of extinguishment.The breath here is a Kaya:ie this is an apparent Kaya.That is it not a real thing this a "mannathayak".A creation of mind as shown in Mula pariyaya Sutrya.Thus it is identify as kaya kayanupassi viharathi.Taking this as the base develop Sathi and Sampajana with energy.If this done correctly the whole phenomenon one can exceed the worldly state and see with wisdom the Lokuttara state.

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