SN 41.8 Nigantha proves the first jhāna vitakka and vicāra can not be what Sujato, Brahm, Vism. claims

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra


jankala wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:24 am...I'd also call to attention SN 41.8, where a Nigantha doesn't believe that there could be a state of mind without thinking and pondering / directed thought and evaluation (vitakka vicāra).
If these terms had a special meaning in the Buddhist context of jhāna, why would this conversation occur between another ascetic and a Buddhist without confusion? Just a straightforward question in every day parlance about "vitakka vicara," i.e. thinking and pondering.

response by frank k » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:06 am

You can actually prove, based on SN 41.8, that vitakka and vicāra must be the same linguistic verbal mental talk as a fundamental component of the oral tradition.

link to sutta, and link to its agama parallel
https://lucid24.org/sn/sn41/sn41-v01/index.html#s8

What most people fail to notice, is that since Nigantha is saying second jhana (samādhi without V&V) is not possible,
he's saying that first jhāna is possible (with V&V).
Very likely, he and his students could do first jhāna.
And if they couldn't at least he doesn't find it unreasonable to have that kind of samādhi (Buddha's first jhāna).
So what first jhāna with what kind of V&V (vitakka and vicāra) is he doing then?
Did Sujato use a time machine to go back and inform Nigantha the "special" redefined V&V of "placing the mind and keeping it connected"?

That can't be, because if NIgantha could do that kind of frozen disembodied stupor of Vism. and Ajahn Brahm redefinition of jhāna,
then he wouldn't be saying second jhana is impossible.
Either you can do Vism. redefined jhana, all four of them, or you can't.
If you think the 2nd Vism. jhana is impossible, then you think all 4 of them are impossible.
∴ If you think just 2nd Vism. jhana is impossible, but first jhana is possible, then first jhana V&V is not what Vism., Brahm, Sujato claims it is.

So we've proven the Vism. redefinition of V&V as "placing the mind and keeping it connected" are definitely wrong.
If it's not that, and no other special definition of V&V is provided by the Buddha in SN 41.8, then we can conclude V&V means the same as it does everywhere else.

V&V💭: vitakka & vicāra

Vitakka 💭 = directed thought.
Vicāra 🕵️ = the evaluation of that very same directed thought, not a separate train of thought (SN 46.3).
Vicāra explores, inspects, discriminates, evaluates, ponders, scrutinizes, discerns, considers the very same thought initially fixed upon by vitakka.
Vitakka decides on a topic, then gives it to vicara to analyze it further, KN Pe 7.72.
V&V are speech vocalization co-activities, MN 44. You need to think and evaluate with V&V before coherent speech can be vocalized.



V&V💭 in 1st Jhāna🌘

vitakka & vicāra in 1st Jhāna🌘 is intrinsically the same in 1st jhāna as it is outside of it, with 2 conditions.
1. The content of those thoughts, unlike ordinary V&V, must be kusala (skillful) related to Dharma (AN 6.73, AN 6.74, AN 6.75).
1b. The content of the Dhamma vitakka in first jhāna, often is just the meditator mentally reciting the oral instructions of the Dhamma meditation topic they're about to do (SN 46.3). For example, in 31asb🧟‍ body parts, even in non EBT following canonical Abhidhamma and Abhidhamma commentary such as Vimt., one mentally recites the body parts (kesa, loma, ...) while in first jhāna.
2. The thinking is attenuated. The intensity and frequency of vitakka is reduced to the point where it would not tire the body and/or block kāya-passaddhi (bodily pacification), pīti & sukha (rapture and pleasure) (MN 19).
First jhāna j1🌘 is vocal silence, SN 36.11, where speech ceases, but thoughts connected to Dhamma continue (MN 19, MN 78^6.2.0, MN 125^3.10.3, AN 8.30).
Second jhāna j2🌗 is noble silence, 👑😶, where V&V ceases, S&S🐘💭 takes over.
In third jhāna j3🌖, S&S🐘💭 does vipassana (AN 4.41, AN 9.36, MN 111), a deeper version of first jhāna doing vipassana using V&V.
S&S and V&V correspond to sati and Dharma-vicaya of 7sb☀️, SN 46.3.
Sammā-saṅkappo 2💭 (right-resolve) precedes vitakka (thinking), but in most contexts involving jhāna you can treat them as equivalent (MN 117, MN 78).
Even in Vism. and Abhidhamma V&V still means mental recitation of speech. After exiting 2nd jhāna, one mentally chants, 'earth [kasina], earth', to get into third jhāna.