Re: Vitakka & Vicāra
I don't know the full context of your conversation, as cswr is on my blocked list,
but the key point is V&V are vaci-sankhāra in an oral tradition.
Nonverbal images, are citta-sankhāra. most notably sañña (perceptions arising through 6 doors).
citta-sankhara are subverbal, nonverbal, they exist in all 4 jhānas and the first 3 formless attainments.
The Buddha's 4 jhānas are not a disembodied frozen mental stupor.
First jhāna allows for verbal mental talk in investigating the four noble truths, the remaining jhānas and perception formless attainments the investigation is done with subverbal mental processing.
citta sankhara can be contained within vaci-sankhara,
but vaci sankhara are not part of citta sankhara.
∴ vitakka are not nonverbal images.
Again, in an oral tradition, people think, speak out loud their VERBAL lingusistic thoughts to other people because it's a COMMUNICABLE language.
subverbal nonverbal mental imagery, citta sankhara, are not not transmittable via vocalizing and hearing and decoding verbalized speech in a COMMUNICABLE language.
but the key point is V&V are vaci-sankhāra in an oral tradition.
Nonverbal images, are citta-sankhāra. most notably sañña (perceptions arising through 6 doors).
citta-sankhara are subverbal, nonverbal, they exist in all 4 jhānas and the first 3 formless attainments.
The Buddha's 4 jhānas are not a disembodied frozen mental stupor.
First jhāna allows for verbal mental talk in investigating the four noble truths, the remaining jhānas and perception formless attainments the investigation is done with subverbal mental processing.
citta sankhara can be contained within vaci-sankhara,
but vaci sankhara are not part of citta sankhara.
∴ vitakka are not nonverbal images.
Again, in an oral tradition, people think, speak out loud their VERBAL lingusistic thoughts to other people because it's a COMMUNICABLE language.
subverbal nonverbal mental imagery, citta sankhara, are not not transmittable via vocalizing and hearing and decoding verbalized speech in a COMMUNICABLE language.
nirodh27 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:36 pmCeisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:22 pmYou still seem stuck on the idea that everyone thinks in terms of "The elephant is grey" when they think of a grey elephant. You might think your thoughts via words, but not everyone does. Some people think wholly in terms of verbal thoughts. Others it's a mix of both, and for others too it's pure imagery.We have plenty of examples of the Buddha that use verbalization first person during meditation. For those that have pure imagery, they can still do the same thing without verbalization, and they will use verbalization to describe the same process. But the Suttas speaks like verbalization is the norm and they cannot avoid to distinguish between intentions (that are behind every thought) and the act of thinking that is represented by Vitakka&Vicara (that is something that is more complex, reasoned and it is verbal or it is translated as verbal if needed for those that doesn't verbalize)."If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.Just as the thought would occur to a man walking quickly, 'Why am I walking quickly? Why don't I walk slowly?' So he walks slowly. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I walking slowly? Why don't I stand?' So he stands. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I standing? Why don't I sit down?' So he sits down. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I sitting? Why don't I lie down?' So he lies down.Those are examples of first-person verbalization in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. If that is done by some without verbalization or with verbalization that is not visible/noted in the conscious part of the brain, that doesn't change that the suttas describe those things as being verbal and do examples as them being verbal because it is taken as the norm. That means that in the nature of first jhana this verbalization (which is not parroting without a sincere intention as Jankala have brilliantly explained) have its place, and it is not true that "thoughts are long gone" in first Jhana as is said, for example, from Sujato. This act of Vitakka&Vicara is well-described in the suttas as a form of verbalization and thought-analysis and not as a "simpler" intention that is something more basic. Vitakka&Vicara is what distinguish an elephant from a human being, the capacity to explore, examine, sift, ponder about a topic. The suttas presents and describe it as internal verbalization, even when you understand "This is Dukkha" and "This is the end of Dukkha".
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