Quick comparison of translators
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya✅frankk: (with the) mind, dharma-[ideas] (he has) cognized
✅b.bodhi: Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind
⛔b.sujato: When they know a ⛔thought with their mind,
✅b.thanissaro: ideas cognizable by the intellect
AN 4.14
b.sujatoWhen they hear a sound with their ears … Sotena saddaṃ sutvā …
When they smell an odor with their nose … ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā …
When they taste a flavor with their tongue … jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā …
When they feel a touch with their body … kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā …
When they know a thought with their mind,
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya
they don’t get caught up in the features and details. na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī,
AN 6.55
b.sujatokāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā …
touches …
manoviññeyyā dhammā manassa āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, nevassa cittaṃ pariyādiyanti.
and thoughts come into the range of the mind they don’t overcome the mind.
MN 18
In this sutta, you can see a clear hierarchy from more primitive lower order mental sensory data, to higher order. Vitakka is near the top with papanca (proliferation), whereas the 'dhamma' that mano vinnana operates on is at low primitive level of contact (phassa) and consciousness (vinnana).
pro·lif·er·ate /prəˈlifəˌrāt/
increase rapidly in numbers; multiply.
Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
| eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate |
(b.sujato)
What's B. Sujato's Agenda?
In this context, B.sujato consistently translates 'dhamma' here (when used as object of the operator of mind and consciousness) as 'thought', which is completely wrong. Comparing with B.Bodhi, B. Thanissaro, and others, you can see that viññāya (consciousness aggregate in verb form doing 'cognizing'), is working with 'dhamma' at a low level of sensory input data, even lower level than a perception/sañña. The English word 'thought', is closely linked to the verb 'thinking', a high order level of mental construct.
This is just a guess, but it looks like an attempt by B. Sujato to muddy the waters of vitakka & vicara (thinking and evaluation), which he wrongly translates under first and second jhana context as "placing the mind and keeping it connected". It looks like he intentionally translates sankappa (resolve) as "thinking", and manasa working with dhamma "thoughts" as a way to obfuscate how 'thinking' works in the EBT.
More detailed pali-english audit will follow later to prove manasa and dhamma are lower level operators than vitakka (thinking) and sañña (perceptions).
How is B. Sujato ⛔wrong (clarification)?
manasā dhammaṃ viññāya
✅frankk: (with the) mind, dharma-[ideas] (he has) cognized
✅b.bodhi: Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind
⛔b.sujato: When they know a ⛔thought with their mind,
✅b.thanissaro: ideas cognizable by the intellect
If we look at that phrase in complete isolation, we can't justifiably conclude any of those translations above are wrong. B. Bodhi has translated the entire pali sutta collection, as has B. Sujato, and B. Thanissaro has translated most of the sutta collection.
So when we say B. Sujato is wrong, it's based on the context of how he translates similar terms and how those terms work together in the entire sutta collection. Do they cohere? No. A responsible translator (the other 3) recognized that the scope for mano and dhamma as sensory data fields, is a much wider scope than vitakka, the thinking of 'thoughts'. B. Bodhi translates dhamma there as 'mental phenomenon', B. Thanissaro 'idea'.
2. sanna/perception
3. samadhi nimitta (a meditation subject used to enter samadhi)
4. an implicit object of 'sati' ('dhamma' is what sati 'remembers')
5. sukha vedana, or any kind of vedana
6. vitakka & vicara (thinking and evaluation)
(there are more, those are just some prominent examples)
So to translate 'dhamma' as 'thought', limiting it to the scope of vitakka, is a catastrophic error. The best way, as the Chinese did in translating 'dharma' in the Agamas, is to leave dhamma untranslated. But if you're not going to do that, then you at least need to select a translation that does not collide with the meanings of vitkakka and other mental inputs in the hierarchy of mind data sensory input.
✅frankk: (with the) mind, dharma-[ideas] (he has) cognized
✅b.bodhi: Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind
⛔b.sujato: When they know a ⛔thought with their mind,
✅b.thanissaro: ideas cognizable by the intellect
If we look at that phrase in complete isolation, we can't justifiably conclude any of those translations above are wrong. B. Bodhi has translated the entire pali sutta collection, as has B. Sujato, and B. Thanissaro has translated most of the sutta collection.
So when we say B. Sujato is wrong, it's based on the context of how he translates similar terms and how those terms work together in the entire sutta collection. Do they cohere? No. A responsible translator (the other 3) recognized that the scope for mano and dhamma as sensory data fields, is a much wider scope than vitakka, the thinking of 'thoughts'. B. Bodhi translates dhamma there as 'mental phenomenon', B. Thanissaro 'idea'.
At the mind and sensory data level, 'dhamma' could represent any of the following:
1. vinnana/conciousness2. sanna/perception
3. samadhi nimitta (a meditation subject used to enter samadhi)
4. an implicit object of 'sati' ('dhamma' is what sati 'remembers')
5. sukha vedana, or any kind of vedana
6. vitakka & vicara (thinking and evaluation)
(there are more, those are just some prominent examples)
So to translate 'dhamma' as 'thought', limiting it to the scope of vitakka, is a catastrophic error. The best way, as the Chinese did in translating 'dharma' in the Agamas, is to leave dhamma untranslated. But if you're not going to do that, then you at least need to select a translation that does not collide with the meanings of vitkakka and other mental inputs in the hierarchy of mind data sensory input.
English definition of "thought"
oxford dict.
thought/THôt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: thought; plural noun: thoughts
1.
an idea or opinion produced by thinking, or occurring suddenly in the mind.
"Maggie had a sudden thought"
synonyms: idea, notion, line of thinking, belief, concept, conception, conviction, opinion, view, impression, image, perception, mental picture; More
assumption, presumption, hypothesis, theory, supposition, postulation, abstraction, apprehension, understanding, conceptualization;
feeling, funny feeling, suspicion, sneaking suspicion, hunch
"a thought came to me as to how we should proceed"
one's mind or attention.
plural noun: one's thoughts
"he's very much in our thoughts and prayers"
an act of considering or remembering someone or something.
"she hadn't given a thought to Max for some time"
an intention, hope, or idea of doing or receiving something.
"he had given up all thoughts of making Manhattan his home"
synonyms: anticipation, expectation, prospect, contemplation, likelihood, possibility, fear More
"the mere thought of being confined made her breathless"
hope, aspiration, ambition, dream;
intention, idea, plan, design, purpose, aim
"he gave up any thought of taking a degree"
2.
the action or process of thinking.
"Sophie sat deep in thought"
synonyms: thinking, reasoning, contemplation, musing, pondering, consideration, reflection, introspection, deliberation, study, rumination, cogitation, meditation, brooding, mulling over, reverie, brown study, concentration, debate, speculation; rarecerebration
"it only took a moment's thought"
merriam webster
thought noun\ ˈthȯt
\
Definition of thought
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : something that is thought: such as
a : an individual act or product of thinking
b : a developed intention or plan had no thought of leaving home
c : something (such as an opinion or belief) in the mind he spoke his thoughts freely
d : the intellectual product or the organized views and principles of a period, place, group, or individual contemporary Western thought
2a : the action or process of thinking : cogitation
b : serious consideration : regard
c archaic : recollection, remembrance
3a : reasoning power
b : the power to imagine : conception
a thought
: a little : somewhat a thought too much vinegar in the dressing
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