SN 36.11, MN 44 B. Sujato, as of august 2019 still refuses to correct his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara

A Man looks at a woman, and then she becomes pregnant

But does she? Making eye contact may be one of the prerequisite conditions (you could argue blind men can still get women pregnant), but eye contact is not the  cause of pregnancy.

Similarly

If B. Sujato's understanding of vitakka & vicara are correct, then based on MN 44, anyone who is not comatose or dead, would randomly have coherent speech pop out of their mouth at any time without cause. In fact, even a brain damaged mute, should be able to vocalize speech because they "place their mind and keep it connected to some kind of thought process".

When is the last time, you were in samadhi, "placed your mind and kept it connected" to a white kasina with no thought, and suddenly coherent speech was vocalized?

This is so wrong on so many levels, and I questioned B. Sujato publicly on why he did this on suttacentral forum. He acknowledged what I said made sense, but would not or could not explain his reason for translating it that way. So we can only assume this is part of his agenda to support his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara in first and second jhana, especially with reference to SN 36.11, where V&V cease in second jhana.

MN 44

(B. Sujato, as of august 2019 still refuses to correct his misinterpretation and mistranslation of vitakka & vicara)
“There are these three processes. “Tayome, āvuso visākha, saṅkhārā— Physical, verbal, and mental processes.” kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

“But ma’am, what is the physical process? What’s the verbal process? What’s the mental process?” “Katamo panāyye,
kāyasaṅkhāro,
katamo vacīsaṅkhāro, katamo cittasaṅkhāro”ti?
“Breathing is a physical process. Placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes. Perception and feeling are mental processes.” “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso
visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā
vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
“But ma’am, why is breathing a physical process? Why are placing the mind and keeping it connected verbal processes? Why are perception and feeling mental processes?” “Kasmā panāyye, assāsapassāsā
kāyasaṅkhāro, kasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, kasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti?

“Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process. “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro. 

First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes. Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṃ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro. 

Perception and feeling are mental. They’re tied up with the mind, that’s why perception and feeling are mental processes.” Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

My translation, based on B. Thanissaro

(Fabrications: bodily, voice, mind)

♦ 463. “kati panāyye, saṅkhārā”ti?	“Now, lady, what are-fabrications?”
♦ “tayo-’me, āvuso visākha, saṅkhārā —	“These three-fabrications, friend Visākha:
kāya-saṅkhāro, vacī-saṅkhāro, citta-saṅkhāro”ti.	bodily-fabrications, vocal-speech-fabrications, & mental-fabrications.”
♦ “katamo panāyye, kāya-saṅkhāro,	“But what are bodily-fabrications?
katamo vacī-saṅkhāro,	What are vocal-speech-fabrications?
katamo citta-saṅkhāro”ti?	What are mental-fabrications?”
♦ “assāsa-passāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāya-saṅkhāro,	“In-&-out-breaths are bodily-fabrications.
vitakka-vicārā vacī-saṅkhāro,	Directed thought-&-evaluation are vocal-speech-fabrications.
saññā ca vedanā ca citta-saṅkhāro”ti.	Perceptions & feelings are mental-fabrications.”
♦ “kasmā panāyye, assāsapassāsā kāya-saṅkhāro,	“But why are in-&-out breaths bodily-fabrications?
kasmā vitakka-vicārā vacī-saṅkhāro,	Why are directed thought-&-evaluation vocal-speech-fabrications?
kasmā saññā ca vedanā ca citta-saṅkhāro”ti?	Why are perceptions & feelings mental-fabrications?”
♦ “assāsa-passāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā	“In-&-out breaths, ***, (are) bodily;
ete dhammā kāyap-paṭi-baddhā,	these dhamma-[things] (are) bound-up-with-the-body,
tasmā assāsa-passāsā kāya-saṅkhāro.	That’s why in-&-out breaths are bodily-fabrications.
pubbe kho, āvuso visākha,	prior to [vocalizing speech], friend Visakha,
vitakketvā vicāretvā	(one) directs-thoughts (and) evaluates [those very thoughts],
pacchā vācaṃ bhindati,	afterwards, vocal-speech breaks-out,
tasmā vitakka-vicārā vacī-saṅkhāro.	Therefore directed-thought-&-evaluation are vocal-speech-fabrications.
saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā	Perceptions & feelings are mental;
ete dhammā cittap-paṭi-baddhā,	these dhamma-[things] (are) bound-up-with-the-mind.
tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca citta-saṅkhāro”ti.	Therefore perceptions & feelings (are) mental-fabrications.”

SN 36.11

(B. Sujato)
But I have also explained the progressive cessation of conditions. Atha kho pana, bhikkhu, mayā anupubbasaṅkhārānaṃ nirodho akkhāto. For someone who has attained the first absorption, speech has ceased. Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti. For someone who has attained the second absorption, the placing of the mind and keeping it connected have ceased. Dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vitakkavicārā niruddhā honti. For someone who has attained the third absorption, rapture has ceased. Tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa pīti niruddhā hoti. For someone who has attained the fourth absorption, breathing has ceased. Catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti. For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite space, the perception of form has ceased. Ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā niruddhā hoti.

So after 1st jhana, one's mind is comatose or brain dead?

So after you stop "placing the mind and keeping it connected"  from second jhana on up, are you brain dead, comatose, asleep, or unconscious?

SN 36.11 frankk translation

(9 gradual nirodho/cessations)

atha kho pana, bhikkhu, mayā	“And I have also {taught}
anu-pubba-saṅkhārānaṃ nirodho akkhāto.	Step-by-step-co-doings cessation.

(in 4 jhānas one can perceive rūpa ✅ 🚶)

1. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa	1. (with) first jhāna attained,
🚫🗣️💬 vācā niruddhā hoti.	🚫🗣️💬 vocalization-of-speech has ceased.
2. dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa	2. (with) second jhāna attained,
🚫(V&V💭) vitakka-vicārā niruddhā honti.	🚫(V&V💭) directed-thought-&-evaluation has ceased.
3. tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa	3. (with) third jhāna attained,
🚫😁 pīti niruddhā hoti.	🚫😁 rapture has ceased.
4. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa	4. (with) fourth jhāna attained,
🚫🌬️😤 assāsa-passāsā niruddhā honti.	🚫🌬️😤 in-breath-out-breath has ceased.

(in a-rūpa / form-less attainments, body 🚶 perception disappears)

5. ākāsā-nañc-āyatanaṃ samāpannassa	5. (with) space-infinitude-dimension attained,
🚫🚶 rūpa-saññā niruddhā hoti.	🚫🚶 forms-perception has ceased.

The relationship between vaci-sankhara and vitakka & vicara

 If you study MN 44 and SN 36.11 carefully, you'll see the relationship clearly and how it works with jhana, and the oral tradition.

What B. Sujato is attempting to do, is retrofit MN 44, turn it into his own kind of Abhidharma to provide a re-definition of vitakka & vicara. It makes the sutta collection and jhanas completely incoherent.

Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

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Post by frank k » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:58 am

Mike,
B.Sujato's V&V translation, his redefinition of vaci-sankhara (with the mistranslated V&V) become corrupt, and his manasa & dhamma are corrupt. I think you, and most people, are under the wrong idea of how much interpretive license translators have. His mistranslation of V&V, is not in the category of "we should respect everyone's difference of opinon and choice of translation." It's wrong. It breaks the Dharma, and the coherence of how all the pieces of V&V, jhana, 4nt work together.

Example: If I were to translate vācā (vocalized speech) as "placing sound waves and connecting it to the listener's eardrum", that is extremely, extraordinarily wrong and destroys the meaning of the suttas. Even though that translation is partially correct, partially describing what happens with 'speech', it's missing the most important part of 'speech', the communicable ideas with meaning. 'Speech' isn't just any sound waves connecting with the ear drum, it's sounds in the form of language with communicable meaning.

In exactly the same way, for vitakka & vicara, it's not the 'placing of the mind and keeping it connected' , it's the thoughts that are connecting to it that are the important part.

Do you guys understand? It's a 'right' and 'wrong' situation here, not a translator preference.