AN 3.94 stream entry, first jhāna, non-return if dying in first jhāna

Unresolved questions from this sutta.

1. Does this mean the disciple attained stream entry without even needing at least first jhāna?

2. presumably this line: "Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion." is happening WHILE doing the first jhāna, otherwise they would be a non-returner whether or not they died while doing first jhāna?

AN 3.94 Sarada: Springtime

94. Saradasutta	94. Springtime
“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, saradasamaye viddhe vigatavalāhake deve ādicco nabhaṃ abbhussakkamāno sabbaṃ ākāsagataṃ tamagataṃ abhivihacca bhāsate ca tapate ca virocati ca.	“After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, yato ariyasāvakassa virajaṃ vītamalaṃ dhammacakkhuṃ uppajjati, saha dassanuppādā, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—	In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of The Dharma arises in a noble-one's-disciple, three fetters are given up:
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.	identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
Athāparaṃ dvīhi dhammehi niyyāti abhijjhāya ca byāpādena ca.	Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion.
So vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful Dharmas, they enter and remain in the first jhāna, which has the rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, while directing-thought and evaluation.
Tasmiñce, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako kālaṃ kareyya, natthi taṃ saṃyojanaṃ yena saṃyojanena saṃyutto ariyasāvako puna imaṃ lokaṃ āgaccheyyā”ti.	If that noble-one's-disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”

(end of sutta⏹️)

b. bodhi footnotes

538 Mp explains the dhammacakkhu with reference to the commentarial conception of momentary path experiences as the

“eye of the path of stream-entry that comprehends the Dhamma of the four noble truths.”

539 This phrase normally denotes the attainment of non-returning.

Mp, however, identifies this disciple as a “jhāna non-returner” (jhānānāgāmī),

that is, a stream-enterer or once-returner who also attains jhāna.

Though such a practitioner has not yet eliminated the two fetters of sensual desire and ill will,

by attaining jhāna he or she is bound to be reborn in the form realm and attain nibbāna there,

without taking another rebirth in the sense sphere.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu Comments, 2023 July

You could interpret this sutta in a way that doesn’t fit in with other descriptions of what’s going on in stream entry and the attainment of non-return, 

or you could interpret it an a way that does fit in with those descriptions.
I prefer to read it in the second way.
Thus: At stream entry, one has reached the at least the first jhana but hasn’t mastered it, 

because the coming together of all eight factors of the noble path equals the stream, 

but stream entry is supposed to mark the point where one has completed the training in virtue, 

but only partially completed the training in concentration and discernment.

Later, at non-return, one has mastered concentration.
At one of the later occasions when one has entered the first jhana, one dies. 

One goes to the form realm of one of the Pure Abodes, 

never to return to any of the sensual realms before unbinding.

Forum discussion

@Lucilius wrote

This is a Sutta I found unclear at first as well.
1. Does a sotapanna gain non-return if (s)he happens to die while in the first jhāna?
2. Is this (i.e. after stream entry) the first time one attains the first jhāna?

Regarding 2: I think we all the evidence in the suttas points towards the opposite—i.e. that one needs jhāna for stream-entry.
One instance is MN 64, where the Buddha says that it is impossible to cut through the five lower fetters without jhāna. Some take this to mean that one cannot attain non-return without jhāna but that one could maybe cut through the three lower fetters and become a stream-enterer without jhāna; I think this notion is mistaken because if this were the case, the Buddha would've specifically said that it is impossible to cut through the fetter of sensual passion and ill-will, and not the five lower fetters, as he does in the sutta. Thus I think it is impossible to cut though any of the lower fetters without jhāna.

Another instance is DN 16, where the Buddha says that

“In any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is not ascertained, no contemplative of the first… second… third… fourth order [stream-winner, once-returner, non-returner, or arahant] is ascertained. But in any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is ascertained, contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order are ascertained. The noble eightfold path is ascertained in this doctrine & discipline, and right here there are contemplatives of the first… second… third… fourth order. Other teachings are empty of knowledgeable contemplatives. And if the monks dwell rightly, this world will not be empty of arahants.

It doesn't say that you only need the full noble eightfold path—including sammā-samādhi ≈ jhāna—only for non-return and up.

Other indications are SN 55.5 where it is said that the stream-enterer is already endowed with all factors of the noble eightfold path—including sammā-samādhi.
The sotapanna also sees the four noble truths (see SN 48.53), which is done by samādhi (see SN 56.1).

So, imo, a sotapanna already has practiced and attained the jhānas.

Regarding 1: I think the question boils down to whether the sensual desire and aversion referred to in this sutta mean the hindrances or the fetters.
If it is the hindrances of sensual desire and aversion that are abandoned, then the sotapanna is only a non-returner if he happens to die while in the first jhāna.
If it is the fetters of sensual desire and aversion, then the sotapanna becomes a non-returner when he abandons them. He then (automatically?) enters the first jhāna when he has abandoned the aforesaid fetters. If he were to die in that instant, he would not return. But this implies, that if he would emerge from that jhāna and dies, he would still not return, since he already is a non-returner.

I think the latter option is more plausible:
Upon abandoning the fetters of sensual desire and aversion, one becomes an anagami and automatically enters the first jhāna (as a side effect?). The Buddha might have said says that one would not return if one dies in this state (the first jhāna) to clarify that he meant the fetters, and attainment of non-return before.

This sutta is also interesting in that it shows the dynamic of how the first three lower fetters are abandoned; they are abandoned as one attains the dhamma-eye. The dhamma-eye (stream-entry, seeing the deathless for the first time) is what cuts through the three lower fetters. This is relevant, because there are people (such as Ven. Nyanamoli from Hillside Hermitage) who think that one has to abandon the three fetters as one practices for stream-entry (i.e. they have to be cut before stream-entry/one has to cut them to be able to reach stream-entry), which is why they afraid of any mediation "method" (apparently even the instructions in the suttas (such as anapanasati)) because following them would just be the fetter of silabbataparamasa or would strengthen it.
But by not following the mediation instructions in the suttas, I find it very questionable whether one can reach any noble attainment at all.

Another interesting thing is, that Ven. Sujato translates Sarada as spring, when the dictionary says that it means autumn (the season after the rains). This is perhaps because he is Australian, and for them it is indeed spring.

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frank k wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:38 am thanks for your thoughts. i added them to the blog page.
b. bodhi wrote an interesting booklet where he questioned whether jhana was necessary for stream entry.
my personal opinion, it wouldn't make sense to define samma samadhi as 4 jhanas and not have that be the minimum standard.
the problem with first jhana though, and all 4 jhanas actually, is that they have quite a range of quality level, it's not something with markers as concrete as either you're pregnant or you're not.
this sutta does seem to be trying to say something very interesting, i just wish it was more clear about it.

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@Lucilius replied to frankk

Yes, jhāna seems to have different levels of quality and there is no clear cut sign "now you are entering the first jhāna", it seems to be more of a "spectrum" or "smooth progression" (just from my experience). Even a modicum/finger-snap of jhāna apparently counts as genuine jhāna, and even an "impure" formless attainment apparently counts as that genuine formless attainment (see origin story of parajika 4 with maha-moggallana), which might extend to the four jhāna as well (at least that would be plausible)..

But I don't quite see how this is a problem here?
You mean because it is hard to tell if one has attained jhāna?
I think most Buddhists have had actually had a finger-snap of jhāna at least in one time (while e.g. reading/reflecting about the dhamma, which leads to the mind settling down, growing confident, unified and serene, one doesn't think unskillful thoughts and pīti and sukha appear in the body), even if they don't/didn't identify it as such (perhaps because they believe that jhāna is some super advanced formless attainment or whatever (?)), but it would be hard to say if this already fulfills the requirements of MN 64 etc. for cutting through the lower fetters.
Maybe this was what you were trying to convey?

I think although even a finger-snap of jhāna still counts as genuine jhāna, this doesn't necessarily mean that that finger-snap is enough for liberating discernment (even at stream-entry level)—even though that much may be enough/sufficient for some people (like those who listened to one single dhamma talk by the Buddha and attained stream-entry, and their occupation/background (non-samana/brahmin) makes it not very likely that they were very experienced in jhāna before that). So there probably is a person-to-person difference for how much jhāna is sufficient.

In any case, one shouldn't be afraid to practice jhāna, because if that (perhaps unidentified) finger-snap of jhāna wasn't enough for one to attain stream-entry, then one probably needs more jhāna than that finger-snap of genuine jhāna.

This text from Ven. Ajaan Lee may also be relevant here?:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Craft ... n0018.html
..as it talks about the varying speeds one attains nibbāna, and how much "tranquility meditation" they need to develop for that..
(But I don't know where he takes this information from (his own experience/learned from his teacher/or even LBT) because I can't remember reading about it in the suttas)