MN 139, SN 36.11, MN 137, SN 48.40 Ven. Sunyo wrong about internal (ajjhatta) meaning "one's mind only", wrong about nirāmisa being 'mind only'

 

sunyo wrote, regarding MN 139:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/292

It can’t be the body that feels the pīti and sukha [In four jhānas], because in the suttas the pīti that is felt in the first two jhānas is repeatedly called mental (pīti-māna). It’s similar with the sukha, which is called non-physical (nirāmisa) and in other ways is indicated to be mental. For example, it is said in MN139 that the sukha that comes from the body (and other physical senses) is not to be developed, and that one should seek sukha “internally”, i.e. in the mind.

frankk response

ajjhatta = adj. inner; internal; personal; in oneself [adhi + atta] ✓

In the context of MN 139, it's one's self (includes both body and mind), not "mind only" self.

Just as in MN 10, one does kāya anupassana (physical body contemplation) "Internally and externally" on one's physical body.

The physical body belongs to oneself.

How would one even do an-atta lakkhana sutta instructions (on 5 aggregates)  thoroughly, if you leave out rūpa and only work on 4 mental aggregates? 

This once again smacks of confirmation bias.

Ven. Sunyo wants sukha to mean mind only, so he starts torturing basic terms to try to support that.

sunyo wrote, regarding SN 48.40 claiming sukha is 'mind only':

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/319

Given the scheme laid out in the Indriyasaṁyutta, which discusses sukha in relation to the Jhānas, doesn’t it make more sense that the physical body is meant there? […] Here sukha is bodily ease.

That’s how sukha-indriya is defined there, yes. But as discussed before, it is said in SN48.40 that this kind of sukha (bodily sukha) does not exist in the third jhāna! So the sukha that exists in the third jhāna must be a different kind of sukha, which is mental. Therefore, it can’t be felt “with the body” (“kāyena”).

frankk response on SN 48.40

See my research article on the corruption of this sutta.

https://lucid24.org/sn/sn48/sn48-040/index.html

excerpt:

(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40)

.

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(has domanassa, dukkha, somanassa, sukha and upekkha cease successively)(domanassa-indriya [mental pain] ceases in 1st jhāna)(dukkha-indriya [physical pain] ceases in 2nd jhāna)(somanassa-indriya [mental pleasure] ceases in 3rd jhāna)(Sukha-indriya [physical pleasure] ceases in 4th jhāna)(upekkha-indriya [physical & mental lack of sāta] ceases in saññā-vedayita-nirodhaṃ )

AVS matches closely with standard Jhana formula

* piti (rapture) and sukha (pleasure) are both present in the first and second jhanas;* piti (somanassa indriya) fades away in the third jhana;* the fourth jhana is free from sukha (sukha indriya), dukkha (pain), somanassa (joy) and domanassa (dejection);* upekkha (equanimity) is present in the third and fourth jhanas.* It is not clear [exactly which jhana] when somanassa and domanassa disappear.

At least 4 distinct school of Buddhism agree on AVS, against one Theravada SN 48.40

These texts and commentaries from various schools of Buddhism vary on their interpretation of AVS (Aviparitaka Sutra), but they all seem to preserve the same consistent version of AVS, whereas the SN 48.40 Theravada Pali is an outlier that differs drastically from AVS.1. Abhidharmamrta(rasa)-sastra (sarvastivada school)2. Tattvasiddhi (or * Satyasiddhi-sastra, pé Cheng shi lun) of the Darstantikas or the Bàáhusrutiyas SCHOOL3. Yogacarabhumi (tiita Yu qie shi di lun) of the Yogacara school.4. As to the Sautrantika views, I shall refer to the Abhidharmako s´abhasya by Vasubandhu in the fourth or fifth century A.D. Although this treatise describes itself as ‘‘a presentation of the Abhidharma as taught by the Vaibhasikas’’, its author has evident sympathies for the Sautrantikas. (Sautrantikas is to be treated as a different school of thought than Sarvastivada)

conclusion on SN 48.40

If you're going to accept Theravada's corrupt SN 48.40 as reliable source in interpreting sukha of 3rd jhāna as "mind only", 

(conveniently Ven. Sunyo and Vism. both have this agenda and believe and rely on SN 48.40),

then you go against at least 4 other EBT schools,

and even in the Theravada pāḷi sutta collection itself, you'll find so many suttas that are now incoherent.

Once you have an incoherent sutta collection, your interpretation is definitely invalid.

Throw out SN 48.40 in favor of AVS parallel, then all the pali suttas are coherent and internally consistent again, which means you likely have a legitimate interpretation of jhāna.

sunyo wrote, regarding SN 36.31 nirāmisa sukha as 'mind only':

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/if-jhana-is-total-absorption-without-physical-sensation-why-is-pain-only-abandoned-in-the-fourth-jhana/29410/319

...

Next we are told that spiritual (sāmisa) [I suppose you mean *nirāmisa*] rapture (pīti) and spiritual pleasure (sukha) arise with their respective Jhānas.

Exactly, it’s spiritual (or literally “not of the flesh”), which means, “relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things”, synonyms being ‘psychological’, ‘inner’, and ‘non-material’. To avoid confusion, I prefer to translate nirāmisa following Cone and Digital Pali Dictionary as ‘non-physical’. PED and Buddhadatta also have ‘non-material’.

What I’m saying is, pleasure felt “with the body” is not spiritual, not nirāmisa. That’s what SĀmisa means, “of the flesh”, i.e. “of the body”. (As in Matthew 26:41: “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh (body) is weak.”)

We also have to be consistent when possible. If nirāmisa pīti is a mental emotion, as you seem to agree (and which is hard to deny since it’s called pīti-māna), 

then nirāmisa sukha must also be a mental emotion.

Frankk response:

Example to show the fallacious reasoning of "then nirāmisa sukha must also be a mental emotion."

"I like apples and smelling roses.",

therefore since apples are a physical object, then the act of smelling roses must also be a physical object.

Next problem: he says spiritual "not of the flesh"  is being contrasted with non-spiritual "of the flesh", 

therefore, nirāmisa sukha must be a mind only phenomena.

On the surface, it seems like a reasonable assumption, 

but we have to actually test it out.

In any religion, you'll find people, who are not in meditative states of disembodied frozen stupor, have "spiritual" (not of the flesh) insights.

For example, they realize being kind and helping others gives them deeper, more fulfilling happiness (both mental and physical) than selfish pursuits of happiness arising based on desire of the 5 cords of sensual pleasure, such as sex and cocaine and music. 

They're having "spiritual insights" while in an embodied, physical state. 

And they use "not of the flesh" in a metaphorical way, in many religions.

So it's pretty common for nirāmisa, "spiritual", or "not of the flesh" to point to a spiritual insight that happens while one inhabits the physical body.

We can also settle this issue quickly and conclusively looking at a couple of suttas, SN 36.31 and MN 137

      MN 137⁴ – (rely on something superior to give up something inferior)            MN 137^4.1 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up householder mental-joy)            MN 137^4.2 – (rely on renunciate mental-distress to give up householder mental-distress)            MN 137^4.3 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up householder equanimous-observation)            MN 137^4.4 – (rely on renunciate mental-joy to give up renunciate mental-distress: use first two jhānas to give up renunciate mental-distress)            MN 137^4.5 – (rely on renunciate equanimous-observation to give up renunciate mental-joy: use 4th and 3rd jhāna to give up 1st and 2nd jhāna)        MN 137⁵ – (two kinds of upekkha equanimous-observation)            MN 137^5.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhāna)            MN 137^5.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rūpa attainments)            MN 137^4.6 – (rely on upekkha of formless to give up upekkha of fourth jhāna)            MN 137^4.7 – (rely on non-identification to give up upekkha of formless)

SN 36.31, conveniently titled, nirāmisa sutta,  hinting it's going to be useful

https://lucid24.org/sn/sn36/sn36-031/index.html

nirāmisa sukha is defined as first 3 jhānas:

(2.2 nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ / not of the flesh pleasure)

♦ “katamañca, bhikkhave,	"And what, *********, (is)
nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ?	not-of-the-flesh pleasure?
idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu	Here, monks, a-monk
vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	(... abides in standart first jhana formula ... )
vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	(... abides in standart second jhana formula ... )
pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti,	(... abides in standart third jhana formula ... )
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti — ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave,	This (s) called, *********,
nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ.	not-of-the-flesh pleasure.

nirāmisa upekkha is defined as fourth jhāna

(3.2 nirāmisaṃ upekkha / not of the flesh equanimity)

♦ “katamā ca, bhikkhave,	"And what, *********, (is)
nir-āmisā upekkhā?	not-of-the-flesh equanimity?
idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu	Here, monks, a-monk
sukhassa ca pahānā,	(... abides in standart fourth jhana formula ... )
dukkhassa ca pahānā,	(... )
pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā,	(... )
adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.	(... )
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave,	This (s) called, *********,
nir-āmisā upekkhā.	not-of-the-flesh equanimity.

Conclusion

            MN 137^5.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhāna)            MN 137^5.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rūpa attainments)

If you follow that link, you'll see that nanatta means diversity of perceptions of the 5 senses, in contrast with upekkha of formless which is ekatta and is mind only. 

So if SN 36.31 nirāmisa upekkha is fourth jhāna, and fourth jhāna is by definition of MN 137  a state that has upekkha operating on 5 senses, 

then nirāmisa upekkha is operating on all 5 senses in 3rd and 4th jhāna, 

and  nirāmisa sukha operating on all 5 senses as well in the first 3 jhānas, supports a physical based sukha pleasure.