What is integrity in Buddhism?
What is integrity (the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles) n Buddhism?
Is there an equivalent Pali Word (s)
How do you know your teacher is having high integrity?
How do you find your Kalyana Mitta is a person with high integrity?
Are there different levels of integrity?
Is there an equivalent Pali Word (s)
How do you know your teacher is having high integrity?
How do you find your Kalyana Mitta is a person with high integrity?
Are there different levels of integrity?
Re: What is integrity in Buddhism?
dhammapal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:00 amThis sutta has problems.The Buddha transl. Thanissaro wrote:
“Now, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as ‘a person of integrity.’ Which four?
“There is the case where a person of integrity, when asked, doesn’t reveal another person’s bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person’s bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, ‘This venerable one is a person of integrity.’
“And further, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals another person’s good points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person’s good points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, ‘This venerable one is a person of integrity.’
“And further, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, ‘This venerable one is a person of integrity.’
“And further, a person of integrity, when asked, doesn’t reveal his own good points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own good points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, ‘This venerable one is a person of integrity.’
“Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as ‘a person of integrity.’”
From: Aṅguttara Nikāya 4:73 Sappurisa Sutta, translated from the Pāli by Thānissaro Bhikkhu
The main problem, it doesn't qualify the context for which it applies.
You can find plenty of counter examples where it fails.
for example, when going for a job interview, you're not going to do well if you hold back on listing in detail and omit your good points.
another example, if someone who takes the superficial appearance of a sap-purisa (person of integrity), but in reality is a snake oil salesman, or a Buddhist teacher teaching a corrupt Dharma, you're going to create a lot of bad karma if you don't warn other people.
Re: What is integrity in Buddhism?
SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:52 pmWhat is integrity (the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles) n Buddhism?What's the sutta where it says you don't really know someone until you've observed them over a very long period of time?
Is there an equivalent Pali Word (s)
How do you know your teacher is having high integrity?
How do you find your Kalyana Mitta is a person with high integrity?
Are there different levels of integrity?
That sutta(s) may shed some light. MN 21 touches on similar theme, but not the sutta I'm thinking of.
In a shorter time span, I would judge integrity based on a point system, awarding higher points for degree of difficulty.
For example, it's easy enough for people to be nice, polite, honest, when they're reasonably happy and financially secure.
You really find out about their character when they're under extreme stress.
It can also be a good sign, if you see them being very scrupulous about small matters, really making sure their virtue is pure.
More often in these cases though of scrupulous virtue on trivial matters, their wisdom may be lacking where they place too much importance on the little thing and lose track of the bigger picture,
the ramifications of chasing that small virtue at the sacrifice of the bigger picture.
For example, person X is very critical of famous Monk Y.
Most People point to person X and say, "You are a person of no integrity! You have wrong speech!"
Without examining critically Monk Y and seeing the bigger picture and whether the criticism is legitimate and justified.
If Monk Y is guilty as charged, then the minor virtue of not revealing the faults of others pales in comparison to the damage from spreading a corrupt Dharma.
That sutta(s) may shed some light. MN 21 touches on similar theme, but not the sutta I'm thinking of.
Lucilius wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 7:01 am
I think you may be referring to AN 4.192 and SN 3.11 (?)
(Furthermore, a handy collection of a few relevant(?) sutta excerpts can also be found here and probably also in other places I am unaware of.)
Re: What is integrity in Buddhism?
SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:33 pm...Really great question you came up with.
Thank you, Frank and Lucilius.
I've been thinking about it a lot since you asked, for other tips not found in the suttas (that I'm aware of).
There's the famous quote already turned up from MN 61, "one willing to lie, there's no evil they won't do",
but most people don't categorize white lies with what MN 61 is talking about.
White lies, even in Buddhist communities, seem pretty common to me. Better than regular world,
but not as much as I'd like to see.
I guess it probably takes a fair amount of wisdom for people who really go out of their to avoid any lies, white lies included, to be motivated to do it (not tell even white lies, because of perceiving long term ill consequences).
One time, in a Buddhist monastery, a very popular senior lay disciple of a famous monk of high social standing, I noticed he had a tendency of small white lies to make people happy. Later on, a couple of years later, he spread a vicious lie about me. I couldn't figure out why he would do that, at first. After a few months of reflecting, I recalled we were having a conversation many months ago (before he spread lie about me) where he offered unsolicited advice to me about good leadership, and another friend who was in our private conversation brought up an incident indirectly hinting he was not qualified to give advice. This really upset him, he said nothing but he slammed the door in anger.
I didn't say anything to upset him, it was a friend, but apparently he included me in his grudge list.
What puzzles me still, is whether he believes the lie he was spreading about me.
Maybe he really wanted it to be true, to get back at me.
Or worse, he knew for sure it was untrue, but knew the lie about me would be perceived as true since he had much more seniority and general credibility in the community.
He got his revenge, if that was what he was looking for, in that many people in the community believed his lie, and even people I was friendly with, it caused me great inconvenience to have to prove my innocence and give my side of the story.
The main point I'm making, my spider senses were tingling years ago when I first saw him making casual white lies as a way to make friends in the community, small things to make them happy and encourage their practice, such as "oh you're improving so quickly in your meditation..."
The other lesson from that, is that when people's pride are hurt really bad, they don't fight fair, they're willing to lie, cheat, murder, or do some other great harm.
This is why you see people on Uber, businesses, amazon reviews, whatever, give each other max ratings or max stars whatever, even when they don't really believe it merited such high rating. They're worried if they tell the truth, the other party will retaliate and give them bad ratings and bad reviews on their business.
So we live in a world of lies and deceit all the time.
Here's another incident that just happened yesterday.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ?context=3
70 year old yoga sutras devotee accused me of faking data attribution (I quoted britannica, he said it was really wikipedia and I changed it to make it sound more credible).
I called him (or her) out on that, showed how googling in 10 seconds could confirm my source was indeed britannica.com,
and rather than apologize for accusing me of lying/cheating, he insisted on his point disagreeing with britannica.
Person of no integrity.
I downvoted his post where he wrongly accused me,
and then he downvoted my reply where I disproved his lie. (I assume he was the downvoter)
I didn't say anything mean to him, I just plainly stated his error like so:
It's a really bad character flaw to accuse someone of faking data, and especially ridiculous when it takes like 10 seconds to verify it.Here's are a few ways you can tell something about your own integrity.
1. Do you downvote (or upvote) people's posts based on the merit of the post, or whether you like the person, or they made you happy or upset in that particular post?
Even on Buddhist forums, I suspect it's more often than not just a popularity contest or pandering to emotions with white lies.
2. Do you fight fair? Meaning if you're angry with someone, you exaggerate wrong doings, bring up irrelevant wrong doings from the past, or out right lie about things? Or do you still stick to your principles of being truthful, fair, etc.?
3. How easily, quickly, deeply do you forgive people?
This one is a great indicator of growth in wisdom IMO.
Re: What is integrity in Buddhism?
Here is a person of integrity.
The story brings tears to my eyes, tears of mudita [rejoicing in skillful Dharmas] and amazement that such a monk of integrity would risk walking in the night in a jungle with tigers, poisonous snakes, etc., to ensure the preservation of uncorrupt Dhamma and Vinaya, on teaching Ajahn Chah vinaya incorrectly on a certain point earlier.
https://lucid24.org/tped/s/stillness-fl ... html#2.3.2
The story brings tears to my eyes, tears of mudita [rejoicing in skillful Dharmas] and amazement that such a monk of integrity would risk walking in the night in a jungle with tigers, poisonous snakes, etc., to ensure the preservation of uncorrupt Dhamma and Vinaya, on teaching Ajahn Chah vinaya incorrectly on a certain point earlier.
https://lucid24.org/tped/s/stillness-fl ... html#2.3.2
2.3.2 -Seeing the Danger
That year, 1947, Wat Khao Wongkot also played host to a senior monk, originally from Cambodia, who was to leave a deep impression on Luang Por.
This monk possessed the distinction of being proficient in both the academic study of Buddhist doctrine and the practice of meditation – an unusual accomplishment in Thailand where an unfortunate split had long existed between the scholar-monks and the meditators.
For the most part, the scholars did not meditate and the meditators did not study;
consequently, neither group held the other in very high esteem.
However, this monk (whose name has not been recorded and henceforth will be referred to as Ajahn Khe) was blessed with a remarkable memory for the intricacies of the Discipline and profundities of the Discourses (Suttas)[19]. At the same time, he adhered to the life of a tudong monk, most at ease surrounded by the natural silence of forests, mountains and caves.
One night during the retreat, there occurred an incident that Luang Por found so inspiring that, years later, he would often relate it to his disciples.
Ajahn Khe had kindly offered to help Luang Por with his study of the Vinaya.
Following a long and fruitful session one late afternoon, Luang Por, having taken his daily bath at the well, climbed up the hill to practise meditation on its cool, breezy ridge.
Sometime after ten o’clock, Luang Por was practising walking meditation when he heard the sound of cracking twigs and someone or something moving towards him in the darkness.
At first, he assumed it was a creature out hunting for its dinner, but as the sound got closer he made out the form of Ajahn Khe emerging from the forest.
Luang Por:
Ajahn, what brings you up here so late at night?
Ajahn Khe:
I explained a point of Vinaya to you incorrectly today.
Luang Por:
You shouldn’t have gone to all this trouble just for that, sir.
You don’t have a light to show the way;
it could have waited until tomorrow.
Ajahn Khe:
No, it could not.
Suppose for some reason or other I was to die tonight and in future, you were to teach other people what I explained to you.
It would be bad kamma[20] for me and for many others.
Ajahn Khe carefully explained the point again and once he was certain that it had been clearly understood, returned into the night.
Luang Por had often noted the phrase in the texts describing the sincere monk as one who ‘sees the danger in the smallest fault’.
Here, at last, was someone who paid more than lip service to that ideal, who genuinely felt the closeness of death and who possessed such scrupulousness that it made him willing to risk climbing a treacherous mountain path in the middle of the night.
It was a powerful and memorable lesson.
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