What is the difference between five faculties (indriya) and five strengths (bala)?

Re: What is the diffrence between five faculties and five strengths?

Post by frank k » Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:00 am

.https://lucid24.org/sted/5ind/index.html
AN 8.28 suggests for arahant, he has 5 indriya, while those on first 3 paths,
in AN 4.163, they are 5 bala.

AN 8.28, where it lists the 37 bodhipakkhiya, omits 5 powers and just lists 5 indriya

Puna caparaṃ, bhante, khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno cattāro iddhipādā bhāvitā honti subhāvitā … pe …	Furthermore, a mendicant with defilements ended has well developed the four bases of psychic power …
pañcindriyāni bhāvitāni honti subhāvitāni … pe …	the five faculties …
satta bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā honti subhāvitā … pe …	the seven awakening factors …
ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvito hoti subhāvito.	the noble eightfold path.
Yampi, bhante, khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvito hoti subhāvito, idampi, bhante, khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno balaṃ hoti, yaṃ balaṃ āgamma khīṇāsavo bhikkhu āsavānaṃ khayaṃ paṭijānāti:	This is a power that a mendicant who has ended the defilements relies on to claim:
‘khīṇā me āsavā’ti. (5–8.)	‘My defilements have ended.’

AN 4.163, sekha (trainees who are at least stream enterer but not arahant) rely on 5 powers to work on becoming arahant.

those with strong 5 powers become arahant quickly.
those with weak 5 powers become arahant slowly.

So between those two suttas, it would conclude opposite of what you're claiming (that one relies on 5 indriya and when they become fully developed then they can be called 5 bala).

(SN 48.43) with a simile of an island in the middle of a river.

one other sutta, says 5bal are functionally equivalent to 5ind (SN 48.43) with a simile of an island in the middle of a river.

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃ pariyāyaṃ āgamma tassā nadiyā eko sototveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati?	And what’s the way in which that river can be reckoned to have just one stream?
Yañca, bhikkhave, tassa dīpassa purimante udakaṃ, yañca pacchimante udakaṃ—	By taking into account the water to the east and the west of the island,
ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃ pariyāyaṃ āgamma tassā nadiyā eko sototveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati.	that river can be reckoned to have just one stream.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃ pariyāyaṃ āgamma tassā nadiyā dve sotānitveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchanti?	And what’s the way in which that river can be reckoned to have two streams?
Yañca, bhikkhave, tassa dīpassa uttarante udakaṃ, yañca dakkhiṇante udakaṃ—	By taking into account the water to the north and the south of the island,
ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pariyāyo yaṃ pariyāyaṃ āgamma tassā nadiyā dve sotānitveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchanti.	that river can be reckoned to have two streams.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yaṃ saddhindriyaṃ taṃ saddhābalaṃ, yaṃ saddhābalaṃ taṃ saddhindriyaṃ;	In the same way, the faculty of faith is the power of faith, and the power of faith is the faculty of faith.
yaṃ vīriyindriyaṃ taṃ vīriyabalaṃ, yaṃ vīriyabalaṃ taṃ vīriyindriyaṃ;	The faculty of energy is the power of energy, and the power of energy is the faculty of energy.
yaṃ satindriyaṃ taṃ satibalaṃ, yaṃ satibalaṃ taṃ satindriyaṃ;	The faculty of rememberfulness is the power of rememberfulness, and the power of rememberfulness is the faculty of rememberfulness.
yaṃ samādhindriyaṃ taṃ samādhibalaṃ, yaṃ samādhibalaṃ taṃ samādhindriyaṃ;	The faculty of undistractible-lucidity is the power of undistractible-lucidity, and the power of undistractible-lucidity is the faculty of undistractible-lucidity.
yaṃ paññindriyaṃ taṃ paññābalaṃ, yaṃ paññābalaṃ taṃ paññindriyaṃ.	The faculty of wisdom is the power of wisdom, and the power of wisdom is the faculty of wisdom.
Pañcannaṃ, bhikkhave, indriyānaṃ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā bhikkhu āsavānaṃ khayā anāsavaṃ cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharatī”ti.	It’s because of developing and cultivating the five faculties that a monk realizes the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.”

B.Bodhi footnote for SN 48.43

230 The statement as such seems to maintain that there is no essential difference between the faculties and the powers, that they are the same five factors viewed from two different angles.
Though it is tempting to see the powers (bala) as a more highly developed stage than the faculties, nothing in the canon or the commentaries supports this idea.
Spk says that one factor is the faculty of faith “in the sense of exercising control in the characteristic of resolution” (adhimokkhalakkhaṇe indaṭṭhena saddhindriyaṃ), and the power of faith “in the sense of not being shaken by lack of faith” (assaddhiye akampanena saddhābalaṃ).
Similarly, the other four are faculties exercising control respectively in regard to application, establishment, nondistraction, and seeing (paggaha, upaṭṭhāna, avikkhepa, dassana);
they are powers in that they are unshaken by laziness, forgetfulness, distraction, and ignorance.

AN 5.13 contains same footnote as SN 48.43

5.13 – AN 5.13 (3) In Brief

“Bhikkhus, there are these five powers.
What five?
The power of faith, the power of energy, the power of mindfulness, the power of concentration, and the power of wisdom.
These are the five powers.” 981

981 These are the five powers (pañca balāni) included among the thirty-seven aids to enlightenment (bodhipakkhiyā dhammā).
These five powers are, as factors, identical with the five faculties (pañc’indriyāni), but the two are distinguished by a difference in aspect.
See SN 48:43, V 219–20, and its commentary, Spk III 247,2–7, 

which explains that the faculty of faith means rulership in regard to conviction, and the power of faith means being unshakable in the face of absence of faith (adhimokkhalakkhaṇe indaṭṭhena saddhindriyaṃ, assaddhiye akampanena saddhābalaṃ).
Similarly, the other four faculties respectively exercise rulership in regard to exertion, presence, non-distraction, and understanding (paggahaupaṭṭhāna-avikkhepa-pajānana) and the other four powers remain unshakable in the face of laziness, muddle-mindedness, distraction, and ignorance (kosajja-muṭṭhasacca-vikkhepa-avijjā).

conclusion

Those are the only 3 suttas I know of that shed on differentiating bala from indriya.

If you were inclined to believe one set was the developmental version of the other, then the above reason I would lean towards 5 powers being the trainee version and 5 indrya being the arahant version.

But then you could also parse AN 8.28 in a way that doesn't favor one or the other. 

AN 8.28 is saying an arahant relied on the power of having fully developed 5 indriya to become an arahant, perhaps omitting 5 powers because it may be confusing that the sutta is listing 8 powers that one relies on.

You could explain away AN 4.163 by saying it could just have easily listed 5 indriya there instead of 5 bala. 

So if you give SN 48.43 the strongest weight (the simile of island in river), 

the safest conclusion is 5 bala and 5 indrya are always equivalent, one is not a weaker development version of the other.

More examples of equivalent faculties

Here's a similar question.

In 37 bodipakkhiya, sati comes under 4 satipatthana (embedded withn formula 'atapi sampajano satima')

it also comes 7 bojjhanga (sati-sambojjhanga)

it also comes under noble eightfold path (samma sati)

it also comes under 5 indrya

it also comes under 5 bala

So does having samma sati mean you're already an arahant?

Does sati-sambojjhanga mean it's a developmental version because you're not awakened until upekkha-sambojjhanga finished the job?

Why would sati-indriya be any different than sati-bala, sati sambojjhanga, samma sati, satipatthana?

They're all exactly the same sati.

They all can be developmental or fully develeped versions of sati.

They just happened to be redundantly classified under different groupings.