https://lucid24.org/sn/sn55/sn55-v01/index.html#s40
SN 55.39 establishes that a stream enterer (sota panna) must possess 4 factors.
If ariya savaka is a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status) as most people translate the term, it's equivalent to this sutta saying these 4 things:
1. ✅an (ariya savaka) stream enterer who possesses these 4 factors is a stream enterer.
2. ⛔a (ariya savaka) once returner who possesses these 4 factors is a stream enterer.
3. ⛔a (ariya savaka) non-returner who possesses these 4 factors is a stream enterer.
4. ⛔an (ariya savaka) arahant who possesses these 4 factors is a stream enterer.
Maybe #2 and #3 you could claim slip through, barely squeak by with the definition of stream enterer = "not liable to be reborn in bad place, bound for awakening",
But definitely #4 an arahant is not "bound for awakening". They are awakened. Period.
As for #1, "a stream enterer (ariya savaka) is a steam enterer." Is true, but it's a stupid thing to say, making it unlikely the Buddha would say it.
SN 55.39 Kāḷigodha: With Kāḷigodhā
Atha kho kāḷigodhā sākiyānī yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinnaṃ kho kāḷigodhaṃ sākiyāniṃ bhagavā etadavoca: | Then Kāḷigodhā went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to her: |
“Catūhi kho, godhe, dhammehi samannāgatā ariyasāvikā sotāpannā hoti avinipātadhammā niyatā sambodhiparāyaṇā. | “Godhā, a female noble-one's-disciple who has four things is a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening. |
Katamehi catūhi? | What four? |
Idha, godhe, ariyasāvikā buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā hoti— | It’s when a noble-one's-disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha … |
itipi so bhagavā … pe … satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavāti. | |
Dhamme … pe … | The Dharma … |
saṃghe … pe … | the Saṅgha … |
vigatamalamaccherena cetasā agāraṃ ajjhāvasati muttacāgā payatapāṇinī vossaggaratā yācayogā dānasaṃvibhāgaratā. | And they live at home rid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, loving to let go, committed to charity, loving to give and to share. |
Furthermore, at the end of the sutta, the lady lay follower ariya-savaka declares she possesses the 4 factors, and the Buddha confirms she is a stream enterer.
“Lābhā te, godhe, suladdhaṃ te, godhe. | “You’re fortunate, Godhā, so very fortunate, |
Sotāpattiphalaṃ tayā, godhe, byākatan”ti. | You have declared the fruit of stream-entry.” |
So as you expect, a noble one's disciple (who isn't themself yet an "ariya" noble stream enterer), gets promoted and confirmed as a stream enterer.
If she, as a "noble" disciple was already an ariya at a level beyond a stream enterer, an arahant for example, then she would be getting a demotion. The Buddha would be proclaiming that she, an arahant ariya-savaka ("noble disciple") is now a stream enterer.
That would be a big demotion, absurd, and violates the natural laws of what it means to be an arahant, or non-returner. Those states can not regress to a lower ariya status.
SN 55.40 Nandiyasakka: Nandiya the Sakyan
Atha kho nandiyo sakko yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho nandiyo sakko bhagavantaṃ etadavoca: | Then Nandiya the Sakyan went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: |
“yasseva nu kho, bhante, ariyasāvakassa cattāri sotāpattiyaṅgāni sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ natthi sveva nu kho, bhante, ariyasāvako pamādavihārī”ti. | “Sir, if a noble-one's-disciple were to totally and utterly lack the four factors of stream-entry, would they live negligently?” |
“‘Yassa kho, nandiya, cattāri sotāpattiyaṅgāni sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ natthi tamahaṃ bāhiro puthujjanapakkhe ṭhito’ti vadāmi. | “Nandiya, someone who totally and utterly lacks these four factors of stream-entry is an outsider who belongs with the ordinary persons, I say. |
I have ariya-savaka translated correctly there, but if you were to plug in the wrong translation
ariya savaka as a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)
It would read:
“Sir, if a noble-disciple were to totally and utterly lack the four factors of stream-entry, would they live negligently?”
Which would be an absurd thing for Nandiya to ask, because a stream enterer by definition possesses those 4 factors (see previous sutta SN 55.39 above).
It's even more absurd if you plug in (arahant, non-returner, etc.) for ariya-savaka not possessing 4 factors of a stream enterer.
But if Nandiya intended to ask about a disciple who follows the Noble One's (Buddha's) teaching who lacked any or all of the 4 factors, that's a legitimate question.
Therefore ariya-savaka = disciple of the Noble Ones. NOT 'noble disciple' (with ariya status).
If people exercise critical thinking, and actually go through the exercise of trying out both alleged meanings everywhere they see ariya-savaka in the suttas, you will find many more weird, absurd, or impossible situations as described in these two suttas.
How did we arrive at this situation? This epidemic mistranslation of ariya savaka as 'noble disciple'?
I suspect it's part of LBT Theravada to control the narrative, to support their redefinition of jhāna as a disembodied frozen state.
If you change the standard dictionary of important pāḷi meditation terms:
body = not physical body, mental body
thoughts = not thoughts, just bare mental movement
rūpa (material form) = visible form devoid of 4 elements material
ariya savaka = noble enlightened disciple, not disciple of a noble one
You make the collection of suttas on meditation incoherent, internally inconsistent, and then it seems reasonable in this crazy uncertain world of corrupted suttas that you'd have to trust the "wisdom" of the LBT elders to interpret the meaning of all that incoherence.
What most of these LBT Theravadas don't realize, is if you trust that the Buddha was honest, plain speaking, straightforward, and used the standard dictionary,
you'd get a coherent, internally consistent and sensible set of meditation instructions that work.
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