SN 55.7 ariya savaka is not enlightened here

 

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SN 55 is all on the topic of stream entry

SN 55.7 Veḷudvāreyya: The People of Bamboo Gate

In this sutta, laypeople are asking the Buddha how they, living their worldly lives, can avoid bad rebirths and gain good rebirths.

So the Buddha gives a gradual training focused mostly on ethical conduct.

“Attupanāyikaṃ vo, gahapatayo, dhammapariyāyaṃ desessāmi.	“Householders, I will teach you an explanation of the Dhamma that’s relevant to oneself.
Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmī”ti.	Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”
“Evaṃ, bho”ti kho te veḷudvāreyyakā brāhmaṇagahapatikā bhagavato paccassosuṃ.	“Yes, sir,” they replied.

The subject going through gradual training is an ariya savaka. (SAV)

....

Puna caparaṃ, gahapatayo, ariyasāvako iti paṭisañcikkhati:	Furthermore, a noble-one's-disciple reflects:
‘yo kho me musāvādena atthaṃ bhañjeyya, na metaṃ assa piyaṃ manāpaṃ.	‘If someone were to distort my meaning by lying, I wouldn’t like it.
Ahañceva kho pana parassa musāvādena atthaṃ bhañjeyyaṃ, parassapi taṃ assa appiyaṃ amanāpaṃ.	But if I were to distort someone else’s meaning by lying, they wouldn’t like it either.

If the SAV (ariya savaka) is already an arahant, there's no point in making that reflection because they're already beyond that need for training.

...

So iti paṭisaṅkhāya attanā ca samphappalāpā paṭivirato hoti, parañca samphappalāpā veramaṇiyā samādapeti, samphappalāpā veramaṇiyā ca vaṇṇaṃ bhāsati.	Reflecting in this way, they give up talking nonsense themselves. And they encourage others to give up talking nonsense, praising the giving up of talking nonsense.
Evamassāyaṃ vacīsamācāro tikoṭiparisuddho hoti.	So their verbal behavior is purified in three points.
So buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti—	And they have experiential confidence in the Buddha …

Why would they have to 'give up talking nonsense themselves.' if they're already an arahant or stream enterer?

...

Yato kho, gahapatayo, ariyasāvako imehi sattahi saddhammehi samannāgato hoti imehi catūhi ākaṅkhiyehi ṭhānehi, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṃ byākareyya:	When a noble-one's-disciple has these seven good qualities and these four desirable states they may, if they wish, declare of themselves:
‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto, sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti.	‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”

Here the SAV (ariya savaka) is getting promoted from just a disciple who practices the Buddha's Dharma, to a stream enterer who gets the guarantee of no more bad rebirths.

If SAV was an arahant, they wouldn't be reborn again and they wouldn't talk about being reborn.

If SAV is less than an arahant, they're getting demoted to a lower station or a lateral move.

Also, it says, " When a noble-one's-disciple has ..."

Which means if SAV was already enlightened, there wouldn't be a question of "when", because it's already "I am and I possess these qualities."

Again, the audience is laypeople who plan to stay lay people, and want to avoid a bad rebirth. So stream entry is their goal, not arahantship. 

Why would the Buddha then use as the subject for their SAV model of gradual training who is already an arahant, non-returner, etc.? 

The competing option for the laypeople, is a worldly Dharma which will likely lead to a bad rebirth, versus the Buddha's Dharma, which if one follows, leads to good rebirth, and one who follows that way is a disciple of the Buddha's teaching (ariya savaka = disciple of the noble ones), not a disciple of outsider Dharma (a-sutava putthujana, uneducated worldling).

Conclusion

ariya-savaka CAN be but is not necessarily enlightened.

It's primarily describing an unawakened being in the process of working towards awakening, a disciple who follows the Buddha's Dharma, usually contrasted against someone who isn't a follower of Buddha.

so the correct translation of ariya-savaka = disciple of the Noble ones.

Forum discussion

Sasha_A wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:34 am

frank k wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:06 amhttp://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tened.html
SN 55.7, another sutta where ariya savaka is not noble (at first)

From the SN55.7:

And they (ariyasavakas) have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.

The next part ("WHEN") supercedes it.
IF they purify their ethics, AND possess 4 factors of stream entry,
THEN they can declare themselves to be a stream enterer.

Left unsaid for the reader/listener to deduce for themselves, is
IF they don't purify their ethics AND they don't possess 4 factors,
THEN they can not be a stream enterer.

So an ariya savaka CAN be a stream enterer or NOT, depending on their actions.
An ariya must be at least a stream enterer already.

Read the whole sutta again carefully, look at the context.