AN 4.41 what are the sati and sampajāno doing in four jhānas?

Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:42 amFriends,

In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?

In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?

Thank you

Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by frank k » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:26 am
It would help if you explain what's motivating your question.
real Example featuring all 3:
You're experiencing a stream of neutral sensations (a dukkham a sukham vedana), say for a few minutes.
You decide to enter jhāna.
You're thoughts meet the requirement of right resolve,
you deeply pacify/relax the body,
and over the next few seconds then you notice the neutral sensations end, and pleasurable (sukha vedana) arising.
You decide to see how long the sukha vedana persists in this jhāna session.
After an hour, you notice some pain sensation (dukkha vedana) in your knee.
There is sukha vedana in the rest of your body, but some dukkha vedana in the knee area.
You notice the different qualities of the sukha, for example the intensity of it varies in various parts of the body.
These are perceptions that arise, sustain, end (your perceptions of how the sukha differ in quality).
The type of mental fuel you use to sustain this jhāna (for example, using metta, or breath meditation), also gives you vitakka's for you to observe their rise, persisting, and falling away.

Remember, AN 4.41 all four of them are done within a 4 jhānas context.
sampājano is better translated as lucid-discerning, it corresponds with the pañña faculty, in verb form, it's pajānati. You know when your mind has greed or doesn't, you know when it's in samādhi or isn't, and you know when different vedana, sañña, vitakka are rising, persisting, falling.
You're not just 'alert' to them, you know them with the wisdom faculty, and you're not just 'situationally aware'.