translate this line from MN 69 commentary, on definition of a-rūpa

Summary of the discussion thread:

MN 69 Goliyāni

(Sariputta is giving the talk, not the Buddha)

(1. should have respect and reverence for his spiritual companions)

(2. should be careful where he sits)

(3. should know even the supplementary regulations)

(4. shouldn’t enter the village too early or return too late in the day)

(5. shouldn’t socialize with families before or after the meal)

(6. shouldn’t be restless and fickle)

(7. shouldn’t be gossipy and loose-tongued)

(8. should be easy to admonish, with good friends)

(9. should guard the sense doors)

(10. monk should eat in moderation)

(11. monk should be committed to wakefulness)

(12. should have aroused-vigor)

(13. should be rememberful [of Dharma])

(14. monk should have undistractible-lucidity)

(15. a wilderness monk should be wise)

(16. should make an effort to learn the higher Dharma (Abhidhamma) and higher training (Abhivinaya))

(17. to realize the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form)

(18. to realize the superhuman state )

Theravada cmy. On arupa

MN 69 reference to a-rūpa

Āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā tattha yogo karaṇīyo.	A wilderness monk should practice meditation to realize the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form.

Te. Cmy. Glosses

	(B. Dhammanando paraphrase trans.)
♦ "āruppā" ti	“formless” (gloss:)
ettāvatā aṭṭhapi samāpattiyo vuttā honti.	"Though the Buddha mentions only the āruppas, all of the eight samāpattis should be understood as included/implied.
tā pana sabbena sabbaṃ asakkontena sattasupi yogo karaṇīyo, chasupi ... pe ... pañcasupi.	However, if a bhikkhu isn’t able to attain all eight, then he should strive for seven or six or five… etc.
sabbantimena paricchedena ekaṃ kasiṇe parikammakammaṭṭhānaṃ paguṇaṃ katvā ādāya vicaritabbaṃ, ettakaṃ vinā na vaṭṭati.	At the bare minimum he should so conduct himself that he becomes proficient in at least one kasiṇa meditation. It would be improper for him not to do at least this much."

Theravada subcommentary explains further

	(B. Yuttadhammo trans.)
Āruppāti iminā catassopi arūpasamāpattiyo gahitā, tā pana catūhi rūpasamāpattīhi vinā na sampajjantīti āha –	In regards to "āruppa": by these ones, all four immaterial attainments are taken, but they do not attain without the four material attainments,
‘‘āruppāti ettāvatā aṭṭhapi samāpattiyo vuttā hontī’ ’ti.	thus it was said, "āruppa was said referring to the extent of the eight attainments".

B. Dhammanando explains ‘ettavata’

frank k wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:47 amSo what the Theravada commentary is saying, wrongly, is that the four jhanas are a-rūpa (since 4 jhanas are part of the 8 attainments).Ven. Responds:No. If the commentator had meant that, he would merely have said:_Āruppā_ti aṭṭha samāpattiyo.As it is, you're overlooking the word ettāvatā:Ettāvatā: by just so much, with this much; to such an extent; so far, to that extent; thus.(Margaret Cone's dictionary)and the word api, ("also").The combination of the two words is often used by the commentators when they want to say that some statement is to be understood as allusive or implicative: "Though the Buddha mentioned only X, we should understand Y and Z to be included too."

a-rūpa and āruppa

With regard to word-formation, arūpa is formed by adding the negative prefix a- to rūpa.Āruppa is formed by adding the suffix -ṇya to arūp, leading to assimilation (p + -ṇya = pp) and stem-vowel lengthening.It's analogous to how sāmaññā ("the state of an ascetic") is formed from samaṇa ("ascetic").With regard to meaning, āruppa is a more specialised term, used to refer to either(1) meditation subjects that lead to arūpāvacarajjhāna;(2) the arūpāvacarajjhānas themselves; or(3) the vipāka that comes from developing arūpāvacarajjhāna, i.e., formless planes of existence.Arūpa includes all of these too, but a dozen other things besides.Āruppa (adj.) [fr. arūpa as ā (= a2) -- *rūpya] formless, incorporeal; nt. formless existence D iii.275; M i.410 cp. 472; iii.163; S i.131 (˚ṭṭhāyin); ii.123; A iv.316 It 61; Sn 754; J i.406; Dhs 1385 (cp. trsl. 57); Vism 338; DA i.224; SnA 488, 508; Sdhp 5, 10; the four Vism iii, 326 sq.The PED seems to have a typo. Āruppa is a noun, not an adjective.frank k wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:47 amThe subcommentary for MN 69 says:[...]That seems to be correcting the commentary, saying that it's only the four a-arupa attainments that are meant, and not the 4 rupa attainments. Then it mentions there are ten-fold kasinas.I don't understand what it says about parikkama ...Can someone confirm I'm translating correctly for subcmy?Cūḷa Dhammapāla isn't correcting Buddhaghosa. The gist of his first sentence is that Buddhaghosa says what he does because there's no divorcing the attainment of the arūpasamāpattis from that of the rūpasamāpattis. The rest is just saying at length what Buddhaghosa said in brief.

Original discussion thread

translate this line from MN 69 cmy, on āruppa

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Post by frank k » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:47 am

Can someone give a complete translation of this line? It's the commentary to MN 69.

♦ "āruppā" ti
ettāvatā aṭṭhapi samāpattiyo vuttā honti. tā pana sabbena sabbaṃ asakkontena sattasupi yogo karaṇīyo, chasupi ... pe ... pañcasupi. sabbantimena paricchedena ekaṃ kasiṇe parikammakammaṭṭhānaṃ paguṇaṃ katvā ādāya vicaritabbaṃ, ettakaṃ vinā na vaṭṭati.

First sentence says 'aruppa' refers to the 8 meditative attainments.
Kasinas are mentioned, but I can't make out what the rest of that definition is saying.


The relevant line from MN 69:

Āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā tattha yogo karaṇīyo.
A wilderness monk should practice meditation to realize the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form.

So what the Theravada commentary is saying, wrongly, is that the four jhanas are a-rūpa (since 4 jhanas are part of the 8 attainments).


And can someone explain the difference between the two spellings a-rūpa and āruppa (which mean the same thing)?

Āruppa (adj.) [fr. arūpa as ā (= a2) -- *rūpya] formless, incorporeal; nt. formless existence D iii.275; M i.410 cp. 472; iii.163; S i.131 (˚ṭṭhāyin); ii.123; A iv.316 It 61; Sn 754; J i.406; Dhs 1385 (cp. trsl. 57); Vism 338; DA i.224; SnA 488, 508; Sdhp 5, 10; the four Vism iii, 326 sq.

The subcommentary for MN 69 says:

Āruppāti iminā catassopi arūpasamāpattiyo gahitā, tā pana catūhi rūpasamāpattīhi vinā na sampajjantīti āha – ‘‘āruppāti ettāvatā aṭṭhapi samāpattiyo vuttā hontī’ ’ti.
Kasiṇeti dasavidhe kasiṇe.
Ekaṃ parikammakammaṭṭhānanti yaṃ kiñci ekabhāvanā parikammadīpanaṃ khandhakammaṭṭhānaṃ.
Tenāha ‘‘paguṇaṃ katvā’ ’ti. Kasiṇaparikammaṃ pana taggahaṇeneva gahitaṃ hoti, lokiyā uttarimanussadhammā heṭṭhā gahitāti āha ‘‘uttarimanussadhammeti iminā sabbepi lokuttaradhamme dassetī’ ’ti. Neyyapuggalassa vasenāti jānitvā vitthāretvā ñātabbapuggalassa vasenāti.

That seems to be correcting the commentary, saying that it's only the four a-rūpa attainments that are meant, and not the 4 rūpa attainments. Then it mentions there are ten-fold kasinas.
I don't understand what it says about parikkama ...

Can someone confirm I'm translating correctly for subcmy?