My thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, and the solution

To give more context, this is a public event, 

* everyone knows cameras are rolling 

*  it's a room full of children

* the boy's mom is standing off camera a few feet away watching all of this

* the boy initiated contact, he had already had a hug with Dalai Lama earlier and then asked Dalai Lama for another hug which triggered this segment 

17 min. video showing what happened before that 1 min. clip and after, with some explanation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT0qey5Ts78

16min talk from Ajahn Acalo with his thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, relevance to Bhikkhu monastic code, sexual predators in religion in general, and how celibate monastics deal with sexual energy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2m0TcUib0

The child's comments about the incident in a filmed interview later

https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/04/18/643eba5d46163ffc078b457c.html

The child: It's a great experience

It was amazing to meet His Holiness and I think it's a great experience to meet someone with so much positive energy," said the boy, who had a few minutes meeting with the Tibetan leader.

"It's a really nice feeling to meet him and you get a lot of that positive energy.

"Not just like that, but once you get the positive energy I think you're happier and it's a better thing, you smile a lot more."

video of boy giving interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCMK7zhQ2HQ

Dalai Lama apologises after viral video of him kissing a child: It was innocent and playful

https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/04/10/64341f9222601d882f8b45a9.html

World News

Dalai Lama apologises after viral video of him kissing a child: It was innocent and playful

The young boy resisted kissing him on the mouth

Dalai Lama apologises after viral video of him kissing a child

The Dalai Lama has had to issue an apology after a video went viral on all social media last weekend, which showed the moment where the Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, was seen kissing a minor on the mouth and then asking him to 'suck his tongue'.

Following the scandal, the office of the leader of Lamaism issued a statement apologising and explaining the whole situation.

Video thumbnail

Dalai Lama kisses a young Indian boy, tells him 'suck my tongue'

The Dalai Lama's office said: "His holiness wishes to apologise to the boy and his family as well as his many friends across the world, for the hurt his words may have caused.

"His holiness often teases people he meets in an innocent and playful way, even in public and before cameras. He regrets the incident."

The event was in February, but the images and video circulated on social media last weekend, trending and platforms such as Twitter were filled with protests and messages of disgust at what they were seeing.

The child approached the Dalai Lama and asked if he could hug him, so the leader invited him on stage, showed him his cheek, and invited him to give him a kiss: "First here".

The Dalai Lama kept hold of the boy, saying "I think here also" and then placing a kiss on his lips. "And suck my tongue," the Dalai Lama then said, sticking out his tongue, forehead to forehead with the student.

"Such cultural expressions are not acceptable".

The M3M Foundation, a philanthropic part of the Indian real estate company M3M Group, based in Dharamshala, India, where the Dalai Lama lives in exile, told CNN media outlet its condemnation of "all forms of child abuse".

"Some news reports refer to Tibetan culture about showing language, but this video is certainly not about any cultural expression, and even if it is, such cultural expressions are not acceptable," they said.

"The world looks up to religious leaders to take a stand and lead against the exploitation and abuse of children through their actions and words," M3M concluded.

My thoughts (frankk)

My thoughts on Dalai Lama kissing boy, and the solution

I believe all parents should be careful and never assume leaving their kids alone with any adult, no matter how trustworthy they are, is safe. 

Related articles

A Buddhist monk (Dalai lama) hugging an American nun.

Forum discussion

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'
Post by BrokenBones » Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:31 pm
The video does not surprise me in the least. A religion that regards sensuality & sexual practices as a means to enlightenment (transformed obviously ) is going to be riddled with deviancy... from top to bottom.

I feel sorry for the good people in the middle... led astray by romanticism and Dhamma teachings which merely act as a veneer to the rotten core.

My personal opinion is that there may well be the odd enlightened person in the tradition... but that would be despite the tradition not because of it... it does actually incorporate a lot of Dhamma even if that Dhamma is given second billing and is routinely corrupted.

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'
Post by BrokenBones » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:53 am

Akusala wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:40 pmThere is a subtle difference between someone giving someone else the benefit of the doubt and someone being an apologist of someone else's behaviour. You cannot seem to discern the difference.

If you want an example of an apologist, here what it is like:

The benefit of doubt only applies when something is doubtful. The video is there for all to see.

The only possibly doubtful thing is motive; but in the context of a Buddhist' monk, that is almost irrelevant. More relevant is how the wider public perceives the interaction, the sangha and in this instance a monk who for many is viewed as the Buddhist Pope.

It will be a stick that Buddhists of all traditions will be beaten with for a good many years.

It should really wipe away the erroneous view that the DL is an advanced spiritual person. The fake news we've been spoon fed for many years is exemplified in the romanticised reporting of Tibetan Buddhism for over a century.

The Tibetan people have had an awful time and many of the Tibetan religious hierarchy have used that for their own ends... this one act caught on video offers a clear insight into the adhammic nature of Tibetan Buddhism.


Pali-English dictionary
[«previous (A) next»] — Adhamma in Pali glossary
Source: BuddhaSasana: Concise Pali-English Dictionary
adhamma : (m.) 1. misconduct; 2. false doctrine.

Don't forget... the DL is THE main man and is above all others in their tradition. If this is how the top man behaves, it begs the question... what of the lesser lamas?

...

It's not too much off topic but the DL wasn't too vocal regarding Sogyal Rinpoche.

The DL has a long history of endorsing lamas despite their well known deviancies. When pressed he obfuscates and when it becomes widespread public knowledge he claims to have known nothing.

It's all well documented and I'm surprised you know nothing about it.

The video is a tough one for all apologists... they want the public to disbelieve their own eyes & ears and put it down to cultural differences.

Are you sure you're not 'seeing everything though a veil of delusion, confusion, conditioning and personal bias?'

Are you 'projecting the garbage in your own mind onto the outside world?'

The video shows a serious breach of Vinaya and there's no getting round that.

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'
Post by Mumfie » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:52 am

BrokenBones wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:55 amThe video shows a serious breach of Vinaya and there's no getting round that.

It doesn't. However scandalous it might look, what the video shows is either a non-offence or a misdemeanor (dukkata).

The Vinaya rulings in connection with the second saṅghādisesa rule are:

Touching a female human (of any age) with lust: saṅghādisesa. This is a serious offence.

Touching a female human intentionally but without lust: dukkata. This is a light offence.

Touching a female human unintentionally: no offence.

Touching a male human with lust: dukkata.

Touching a male human without lust: no offence.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-ss2/en/brahmali

...

mumfie:

The Tibetan Vinaya does have that rule, many others as well - 253 precepts for fully ordained monks, 36 for novice monks and nuns.

All extant recensions of the Vinaya have the second saṅghādisesa / saṅghavaśesa rule (concerning physical contact), including the Mūlasarvāstivādin Vinaya of Tibet. It's just that the Tibetans don't generally observe it very strictly.

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'
Post by Mystik » Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:19 pm
For those caught up in the absurd hysteria of the situation there's a very sensible post on instagram from someone familiar with Tibetan culture.

First seen at dharmawheel....https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 85#p661385

To my dear non-Tibetan friends who wanted my thoughts on the recent
Dalai Lama episode:

I want to preface this by saying that I viewed and processed this
incident as someone steeped in the cultures of both source language and
target language. That is to say, I am familiar with the Tibetan format of
humor (often dark) and acknowledge how different jokes can sound in
English without proper context.

As is the case with most Tibetan elders, the Dalai Lama has a tendency to
tease children and displays a certain childlike innocence. Bearing in mind
that he has a rather poor command of the English language, and with his
advanced age adding to his struggle in articulating his thoughts into
words, I think it all came down to the word "SUCK," which naturally
translates to obscenity in the English-speaking world, especially in todays
hyper sexualized world.

What the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in
Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by
holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their
tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it
and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to
these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this
cultural perspective.

Culture gives language different contexts. Deeply-held taboos in one
culture can be normal in another. Parents kissing children on the lips is
one example. Where such a gesture nowadays can mean a death sentence
in certain parts of the world, it is viewed as an act of affection
elsewhere.


And a follow up comment from the same author...

Needless to say, as a person who’s been immersed in the richness of Tibetan culture for more than half of my life, I am infuriated by the incredibly lame journalism displayed by this story. Not only were no Tibetans (or Tibetologists) consulted on the issue–this is commonly happening to dispossessed people; no one also thought to ask anything of other people on the stage, or the parents, or literally anyone other than one’s own perverse projections. I am grateful to my non-Buddhist friends who have taken the 3 minutes it takes to ask any expert (and especially the ones who have given Tibetan voices a platform), and disappointed by the tendency to grab the bait without a second thought that some others displayed. Exactly as this was unfolding, China–that always has a bot factory attacking the Dalai Lama online-was performing military games imitating an attack on Taiwan, and yet that went under the radar. Next time someone accuses you of something untoward based on a completely out-of-context thing (and guess what, that can happen at any point), you should hope to have others genuinely inquire and not just press buttons thoughtlessly.


Mystik wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:19 pmWhat the Dalai Lama said in English translates to "ngé ché lé jip" in
Tibetan. Tibetan parents and grandparents often tease their children by
holding them tight and saying these words, sticking out the tip of their
tongue almost touching the face, knowing well that the kids don't like it
and expect them to break their grip (for Tibetans unable to relate to
these experiences, I am sorry). There is nothing obscene from this
cultural perspective.

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'

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Post by Dorje Shedrub » Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:46 pm

When I first saw the clip that has been circulating I was shocked and in disbelief.

But, if you watch the full unedited video it appears that the Dalai Lama was being loving and playful. The boy, his mother, and the audience were laughing and smiling the whole time.

Helpful to understand that the Dalai Lama is very affectionate and jolly and a playful tease at times. He seems to be in the moment with people he meets and shows genuine compassion with a childlike heart and not too concerned about what people think. He is pretty straightforward and affectionate.

It helps to also understand that the Dalai Lama mistakenly said "suck my tongue" when he should have said "eat my tongue." Yes that sounds strange, but not when you understand Tibetan culture, especially in the Amdo region where he is from. Please read below.

By the way, some cultures/ families kiss children on the lips, as did my parents, grandmother's, and great aunties. The Dalai Lama is being like a loving grandfather towards the boy, playing with him, kiss him, pray for him, tickles him, and gives him a teaching. The boy laughs and smiles the whole time and this was in front of hundreds of people.

This sensationalized clip very likely is from the PRC who always tries to discredit the Dalai Lama. The event happened in February but just now this clip is circulated, just after the Dalai Lama recognized a Mongolian as the third highest lama in Tibetan Buddhism, plus high tensions with Taiwan and India. Some are asking Dalai Mama to visit Taiwan. Things to consider.

Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy and asks him to 'suck his tongue'

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Post by SilenceMonkey » Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:12 am

When things like this happen, it's important to take a step back and view the situation with equanimity. Aside from the obvious media sensationalism and CCP manipulation of social media, the short video clip doesn't look good to our modern sensibilities. Kissing is so emotionally charged in the west, hearing about something like this will probably be very triggering for most of us here. When our minds are overcome with such strong emotions, they color our perception of the situation.

For starters, I think it's important to see the un-edited video (at the end of the video Mystic posted on p. 5).

Mystik wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:15 pm

santa100 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:15 pmThank you for some useful info. from a Tibetan cultural perspective. But just to make sure non-Tibetans like myself could understand the logical flow of events: the boy wanted to hug the HHDL, so HHDL in his playful manner said "suck-my-tongue" (which meant to say "ngé ché lé jip"), hence creating sorta a boogeyman effect similar to what dr. Weston did in that old "Empty Nest" sitcom?

5 minutes into the video he explains the game elderly Tibetans often play with kids when they ask for something... kiss my cheek, bop my head, rub my nose, give me a kiss.....eat my tongue. It's a playful tease and nothing more than that. Understanding the cultural context makes the accusations of pedophilia and child abuse patently absurd, not that it will stop those with an anti-DL or anti-Tibetan Buddhist agenda from claiming otherwise.

Having spent some years with Tibetans, it looks to me pretty normal from a Tibetan cultural lens. This is what older Tibetans do with their grandchildren.

I think this incident is quite interesting from an anthropological perspective, as it highlights our attitudes towards intimacy in the west. Western culture is often very uncomfortable when it comes to kissing in a non-romantic context, except for certain cultures where it's appropriate to kiss family on the lips. For example, in certain Eruopean countries, it is quite common and accepted for families to kiss each other on the lips as a platonic way of showing affection. In the US (where I'm from), kissing on the lips is only ever seen as sexual. We often think Italians are disgusting for kissing their families like this. It's difficult for Americans to see kissing on the lips in any other way, this is our cultural lens.

It's also interesting to hear Theravadins react to this, particularly western Theravadins. (I am a Mahayana practitioner, Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism.) Theravadins are very strong in the Vinaya rules, which is quite an admirable trait. I think this also tends to produce very harsh judgement of other traditions of Buddhism. This is especially the case with Tibetan Dharma, where love and compassion will sometimes outweigh the minor vinaya rules. Eg. It's fine for Tibetan monks and nuns to sit next to someone of the opposite sex, or touch in a platonic way, to laugh and have fun, etc... In Tibetan traditions, it's often understood that feelings of love and compassion are the basis for bodhisattva path. (Of course there are yogis and ascetic types who practice differently, but you understand.) Yes, there are ways to practice metta and karuna without associating closely with other people... I'm just trying to offer some context.

I think it's also important to note that HH Dalai Lama is at such a high level of attainment, the kleshas such as desire will have no power over him. It's all empty for enlightened beings like His Holiness. In a similar vein, I recently heard a story about an arahant in the Theravada tradition who received massages from a woman. It caused quite a stir. But from the arahant's perspective, there was no lust involved. It was only his body being massaged.