mikenz66 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 amHi Emptyset,
This is a frequently-argued question and it is unfortunate that is is sometimes expressed as "sutta vs visuddhimagga".
Several discussions of how "absorbed" the jhana that the Buddha taught, based on early texts, are linked by Ven Dhammanando's post here: viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317
Deja Vu. Mike, are you a real person, or an AI bot spamming fake news/misinformation on jhāna whenever the topic comes up? We've had this exact same discussion many times now. I've shown in detail how Analayo's understanding of jhāna in his book you quoted is based on fallacious reasoning here: https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html (in short, Analayo uses circular reasoning. Like saying the Bible is true because God said so in the bible.)
The threads you link from Ven. Dhammando are not only outdated, but biased with proponents of the Vism. redefinition of jhāna who cherry pick a handful of passages and ignoring the bulk of sutta passages that contradict them.
I have comprehensive research on every single instance of vitakka in the suttas here: https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html which show that in first jhāna they must be linguistic, verbal, communicable language.
All the suttas on hearing sounds (and mentally processing them) is here: https://lucid24.org/tped/s/samadhi/smd247/index.html#5 Just reading one sutta alone, DN 21, which explicitly states the Buddha being interrupted while in 'jhāna' by a musician singing, is enough to show the 'sutta jhāna' and Vism.'s redefined "jhāna" are qualitatively completely different animals. https://lucid24.org/dn/main/dn21/index.html#tophead I annotate exactly where the jhāna and hearing are happening in DN 21 so even Mike can't miss it.
And the collection of sutta passages analyzed here show the Buddha's jhāna can not be a frozen disembodied stupor as Vism. redefines it. https://lucid24.org/tped/s/samadhi/smd2 ... ml#tophead 24/7 samādhi 1 – Book 1: 4 Jhānas ≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna 24/7 samādhi 2 – Book 2: Jhāna + samādhi in all 4 postures 24/7 samādhi 3 – Book 3: Samādhi & jhāna all the time 24/7 24/7 samādhi 4 – Book 4: Upasampajja Viharati: Attains and lives doing Jhāna samādhi 24/7 samādhi 5 – Book 5: You can hear sounds in all 4 jhānas, not just the first. Which samādhis are silent? 24/7 samādhi 6 – Book 6: Rūpa is not a-rūpa. Duh! 🛇 4 jhānas are not a-rūpa
Bhante Gunaratana's current views on jhāna
Bhante Gunaratana had incorrect views based on Vism., but his phd thesis containing that is still widely circulated. 30 years later, he published a new book with his new views.
Do you think it's proper to keep sharing links to old outdated views abandoned by people without also sharing their updated one?
Link to lucid24.org home page : 4👑☸ Remember, you may have to click the refresh button on your web browser navigation bar at to get updated website. 2024 9-17 Lots of new stuff in the last 2 and a half years. Too many to list. Main one justifying new blog entry, is redesign of home page. Before, it was designed to please me, super dense with everything in one master control panel. I've redesigned it to be friendly to newbies and everyone really. Clear structure, more use of space. At someone's request, I added a lucid24.org google site search at top of home page. 2022 4-14 Major update to lucid24.org, easy navigation of suttas, quicklink: the ramifications 4-2 new feature lucid24.org sutta quick link 3-28 A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think 🔗📝notes related to Jhāna force and J.A.S.I. effect AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here? 3-13 Added to EBPedia J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy...
What these 3 suttas have in common, AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111, is the very interesting feature of explicitly describing doing vipassana, while one is in the jhāna and the first 3 formless attainments. LBT (late buddhist text) apologists, as well as Sujato, Brahm, claim that the suttas describe a jhāna where one enters a disembodied, frozen state, where vipassana is impossible until one emerges from that 'jhāna'. Since Sujato translated all the suttas, let's take a look at what he translated, and how it supports his interpretation of 'jhāna'. AN 9.36: Jhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net) ‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ ‘Paṭhamampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? Take a mendicant who, q uite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskill...
'Viveka', Sanskrit dictionary Primary meaning is ‘discrimination’. Other meanings: (1) true knowledge, (2) discretion, (3) right judgement, (4) the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties’. Wikipedia (sanskrit dictionary entry 'viveka') Viveka (Sanskrit: विवेक, romanized: viveka) is a Sanskrit and Pali term translated into English as discernment or discrimination.[1] According to Rao and Paranjpe, viveka can be explained more fully as: Sense of discrimination; wisdom; discrimination between the real and the unreal, between the self and the non-self, between the permanent and the impermanent; discriminative inquiry; right intuitive discrimination; ever present discrimination between the transient and the permanent.[2]: 348 The Vivekachudamani is an eighth-century Sanskrit poem in dialogue form that addresses the development of viveka. Within the Vedanta tradition, there is also a concept of vichara which is one t...
≈ 4 Satipaṭṭhāna
sounds in all 4 jhānas, not just the first. Which samādhis are silent?
4 jhānas are not a-rūpa
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