Re: MN 125 in pictures, vism. and ajahn brahm "real jhana"
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:11 amI think that instead of "light" and "hard," it should be "disembodied" versus "embodied" jhana. When jhana is interpreted in such a way that there is only manovinnana, then the jhana is "disembodied." If you have eye, ear, body, and mind, then the jhana is "embodied."That's a good proposal.
There's another huge difference though. Not only is VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) and jabrama-jhana (ajahn brahm's redefinition) going from embodied to dis-embodied, they resolve to enter a frozen stupor where no vipassana is possible.
Another way to politely discuss jhana in mixed company (Theravada includes Abhdhamma and Vism. followers and followers with straightforward reading of suttas who reject LBT doctrine that contradict sutta).
Whenever the term 'jhana' in the four jhanas context is used, VRJ followers should understand the suttas is talking about post appana samadhi upacara samadhi where the jhana is embodied, and vipassana is possible and expected.
I was looking at Abhidhamma vibhanga and Vism. gloss of 'sampajano' in the 4 jhanas the other day, and it's the same as 'sampajano' in the satipatthana vibhanga. Look it up sometime. Right view (samma ditthi) and non-delusion is part of its definition. And right view is defined as clearly knowing through direct experience the rise and fall of 5 aggregates and the 4 noble truths. You can't do that from a frozen stupor.
This should be blowing the minds of Vism. followers. Why would sati, sampajano, and upekkha be INCLUDED WITHIN 3rd and 4th jhana standard formulas if the term 'jhana' is supposed to be a dis-embodied frozen stupor?
If the Buddha really had intended the four jhanas to be "appana samadhi" that is disembodied and frozen in a stupor where vipassana was not possible, he had the vocabulary and means to express that concisely and clearly.
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