What are internal, external, "both internal & external", kāya and Rūpa, Vedana, Citta, and Dhamma?

sarathw asked:

What are internal, external, internal external Rupa, Vedana, Citta, and Dhamma?
Unread post by SarathW » Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:15 am
What are internal, external internal-external Rupa, Vedana, Citta, and Dhamma?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#pts.055

I think we have had enough discussions on this subject, but I still am puzzled by its meaning.

Your answer should explain how this applies to all four Satipathana.

To me it is sound like this:
- External body, Internal body, external-internal body
-External feeling, Internal feeling, external-internal feelings
- External Citta (consciousness), External Citta, external-internal Citta
- External Dhamma, Internal Dhamma, external-internal Dhamma

Frankk response:

MN 148, which I quote here, and probably many suttas grouped under salaya-ayatana of MN and SN should clear this up.

(1 Six interior sense fields)

‘Cha ajjhattikāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—	‘The six interior sense fields should be understood.’
iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ.	That’s what I said,
Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?	but why did I say it?
Cakkh-āyatanaṃ,	There are the sense fields of the eye,
sot-āyatanaṃ,	ear,
ghān-āyatanaṃ,	nose,
jivh-āyatanaṃ,	tongue,
kāy-āyatanaṃ,	body,
man-āyatanaṃ.	and mind.
‘Cha ajjhattikāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—	‘The six interior sense fields should be understood.’
iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ,	That’s what I said,
idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.	and this is why I said it.
Idaṃ paṭhamaṃ chakkaṃ.	This is the first set of six.

(2. Six exterior sense fields)

‘Cha bāhirāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—	‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’
iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ.	That’s what I said,
Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ?	but why did I say it?
Rūp-āyatanaṃ,	There are the sense fields of sights,
sadd-āyatanaṃ,	sounds,
gandh-āyatanaṃ,	smells,
ras-āyatanaṃ,	tastes,
phoṭṭhabb-āyatanaṃ,	touches,
dhamm-āyatanaṃ.	and thoughts.
‘Cha bāhirāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—	‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’
iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ,	That’s what I said,
idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ.	and this is why I said it.
Idaṃ dutiyaṃ chakkaṃ.	This is the second set of six.

Obviously the six internal bases belong to the individual person, and the six external bases would the the contact stimuli of "external" people or insentient objects interacting with the individual "internal" person.

So for satipaṭṭhāna context of kāya, vedana, citta, dhamma

internal Kāya would the kāya-ayatana of the "internal" person, as well as the other internal ayatana (eyes, ears, nose...).

internal Vedana would the the 3 types of feelings, 18 types of feelings that can arise through those 6 internal ayatana. 

internal citta, you could say would be the internal  mano-ayatana, and perhaps also include some "dhamma". 

"dhamma" is interesting, because it's an  "external" mental data that is fed in as input into mano-ayatana (which is internal). 

Internal Dhamma then, would be the thoughts and mental activity of the internal person kāya/rūpa, whereas external Dhamma would be mental activity of external people. 

"both external and internal" is not some kind of strange siamese twin 

In satipaṭṭhāna, it's talking about after one examines internal kāya, and then external kāya, both internal and external share common charcteristics. For example, 'eye' is just made up of 4 elements, whether it was internal or external they're essentially made up from the same source material of 4 elements. We're all made up of recycled atoms. 

"internal and external" is meant to show throroughness of investigation, that there isn't something else that has been overlooked, for example, a soul, an 'atta' isn't hiding or residing in some other metaphysical category that exist outside of 'internal' or 'external'. 

Kāya usally refers to physical body of living being, whereas rūpa usually doesn't distinguish between living and inanimate object

example:

apple = external rūpa, not external kāya. Kāya, in satipaṭṭhāna context, is going to be referring to living beings, not insentient objects like 'apples'.

in 6 sense base (salayatana) context, 'rūpa', is already 'external', so an 'apple' is simply rūpa, and external.

Here you can see Sujato often translating 'rūpa' as 'vision' is a problem here.

You can eat an apple that is made up of material form (rūpa), but you can't eat a 'vision' of an apple.