Re: Can a Sotapanna be reborn in the hell or animal realm?
[james] wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:45 pmIf not, why not? What is there about the woeful realms that might conflict with the maximum seven lifetimes rule of stream enterer progression?That's an interesting question, and something occurred to me.
Just as regular beings can to some extent influence where they're reborn,
why would a stream enterer not be able to VOLUNTARILY be reborn into a lower realm, hell, animal realm, if they chose to?
If a stream enterer were to just follow their karmic inertia and just go with the flow at the time of death, we know from the suttas they are guaranteed at most 7 more lifetimes, in favorable realms (not animal, not hell) before attaining final nirvana.
Let's call a hypothetical stream enterer = "Steve" for convenience.
Suppose Steve had some unfinished business, or wanted to help out a family member who had been reborn as an animal, or in the hell realm?
Suppose Steve is a powerful yogi with the 5 mundane abhiñña, psychic powers, ability to visit beings in various realms in his current life, with strong sīla and qualified for any realm he wants to be reborn in, tusita, heaven of 33, brahma realm, and he has family or friend connections in all of those favorable realms he could easily be reborn into.
But suppose Steve wants to help his deceased mom, who was reborn as a bear on earth.
Now in the present life, Steve can wield many supernormal powers, appear as a mind made bear to communicate somewhat with his mom, but it's not enough to help her.
Steve wants to be reborn as a bear cub and help his mom develop some virtues to overcome her karmic obstacles.
I see no reason why Steve, even though he's a stream enterer with mighty psychic powers, could not be reborn as a bear if he wanted to.
But that's just a guess, I have no proof.
Re: Can a Sotapanna be reborn in the hell or animal realm?
We all know the general rules, but there are interesting exceptions that don't have a great deal of explanation.
For example, the suttas say The Buddha, Mogallana, and probably other arahants with great psychic power,
if they wanted to,
could chose to extend their lifetime for the remainder of a cosmic aeon (kappa).
The Theravada commentary is wrong (they say kappa here means the remainder of a typical human lifespan, say 100 years).
How does that work exactly?
I take it to mean the arahant would enter a state similar to cessation of perception and feeling (a state in which their human form would remain impervious to fire, forceful destruction, presumably any decay of 4 elements), and manifiest mind made bodies to communicate when they wished.
So clearly there is some degree of upward and downward mobility for an arahant, even given that it's definite that at their time of pari nibbāna that would be the end.
Another example, an arahant who suffers a mortal wound, could commit suicide to escape the pain.
For nonreturners, once returners, stream enterers, there are even more potential options for upward and downward mobility.
Upward mobility would contain the obivous situation, such as a stream enterer could change their future rebirth by becoming an arahant.
For downward mobility, take the case of a non-returner.
What exactly are the pure abodes, how many of them are there?
Do they really have no choice as to which one they're reborn into?
Could they not be reborn into an arupa realm (outside pure abodes) if they chose to?
How about one of the rupa brahma realms?
And for stream enterers, what does 7 lives at most actually mean?
Sometimes the number 7 in the suttas, just means small finite number, not an exact figure totalling 7.
Let's rexamine Steve again, our hypothetical stream enterer.
Suppose Steve was reborn on Earth again,
but in Saudi Arabia in a rich family, with no contact with Buddha Dharma, but in a pious and virtuous family.
Steve in his new rebirth is a muslim, doesn't remember anything about his previous life.
Would it not surprise you if Steve took a litte more than 7 lives to get back on track towards Nirvana?
-frank
For example, the suttas say The Buddha, Mogallana, and probably other arahants with great psychic power,
if they wanted to,
could chose to extend their lifetime for the remainder of a cosmic aeon (kappa).
The Theravada commentary is wrong (they say kappa here means the remainder of a typical human lifespan, say 100 years).
How does that work exactly?
I take it to mean the arahant would enter a state similar to cessation of perception and feeling (a state in which their human form would remain impervious to fire, forceful destruction, presumably any decay of 4 elements), and manifiest mind made bodies to communicate when they wished.
So clearly there is some degree of upward and downward mobility for an arahant, even given that it's definite that at their time of pari nibbāna that would be the end.
Another example, an arahant who suffers a mortal wound, could commit suicide to escape the pain.
For nonreturners, once returners, stream enterers, there are even more potential options for upward and downward mobility.
Upward mobility would contain the obivous situation, such as a stream enterer could change their future rebirth by becoming an arahant.
For downward mobility, take the case of a non-returner.
What exactly are the pure abodes, how many of them are there?
Do they really have no choice as to which one they're reborn into?
Could they not be reborn into an arupa realm (outside pure abodes) if they chose to?
How about one of the rupa brahma realms?
And for stream enterers, what does 7 lives at most actually mean?
Sometimes the number 7 in the suttas, just means small finite number, not an exact figure totalling 7.
Let's rexamine Steve again, our hypothetical stream enterer.
Suppose Steve was reborn on Earth again,
but in Saudi Arabia in a rich family, with no contact with Buddha Dharma, but in a pious and virtuous family.
Steve in his new rebirth is a muslim, doesn't remember anything about his previous life.
Would it not surprise you if Steve took a litte more than 7 lives to get back on track towards Nirvana?
-frank
Mumfie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:39 amfrank k wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 amI see no reason why Steve, even though he's a stream enterer with mighty psychic powers, could not be reborn as a bear if he wanted to.In many suttas sotāpannas declare of themselves:“Hell is ended (khīṇa-nirayo); animal wombs are ended (khīṇa-tiracchānayoni ); the state of the hungry shades is ended (khīṇa-pettivisayo); states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended (khīṇ-āpāyaduggativinipāto)! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe (avinipāta-dhammo), headed for self-awakening!”and in many suttas the Buddha confirms that all of this is the case.
(Bhayasutta)
The sotāpannas don't declare of themselves:“Hereafter, though we shall never again be compelled to take rebirth in hell, the animal realm or the sphere of petas, naturally we can always do so if we feel like it.”Nor does the Buddha ever say this of them. The khīṇa in khīṇanirayo, khīṇatiracchānayoni and khīṇapettivisayo rule out the possibility suggested by James. As does the -dhammo in avinipātadhammo – just as living for ever is incompatible with being marana-dhammo (“of the nature to die”, “subject to death”), so a descent into states of woe is incompatible with being avinipāta-dhammo (“of the nature to be apart from realms of woe”).
(Śrotāpannālpajñātarahasya Sūtra / Discourse on the Stream-entrant's Little-known Secret, long hidden away in the dragon world, but rediscovered by the great tertön Mumfie)Khīṇa [pp. of khīyati, Pass. to khayati] destroyed, exhausted, removed, wasted, gone; in cpds. ˚-often to be translated "without." It is mostly applied to the destruction of the passions (āsavā) & demerit (kamma).So whether we can see a reason, or whether we can't see a reason, as a sotāpanna Steve is khīṇatiracchānayoni, knows himself to be so and is confirmed by the Buddha to be so. For Steve the conditions for becoming a bear no longer obtain. As a sotāpanna he is – so to sp
Khīṇā jāti "destroyed is the possibility of rebirth," in freq. occurring formula "kh. j. vusitaŋ brahmacariyaŋ kataŋ karaṇīyaŋ nâparaŋ itthattāya," denoting the attainment of Arahantship. (See arahant ii, formula A) Vin i. 35; D i.84, 177, 203; M ii.39; Sn p. 16; Pug 61 etc. See expln at DA i.225= SnA 138. — khīṇaŋ mayhaŋ kammaŋ J iv.3, similarly khīṇaŋ purāṇaŋ navaŋ natthi sambhavaŋ Sn 235 (khīṇa=samucchinna KhA 194); pāpakamme khīṇe PvA 105.
Āsavakhīṇa: one whose cravings are destroyed Sn 370, cp. 162.
Khīṇāsava (adj.) whose mind is free from the four mental obsessions, Ep. of an Arahant Vin i.183; M i. 145; ii.43; iii.30; D iii.97, 133, 235; It 95; Sn 82, 471, 539, 644; Dh 89, 420; PvA 7 (=arahanto); cp. BSk kṣīṇāśrava Divy 542. — The seven powers of a kh.˚ (khīṇāsava-balāni) discussed at D iii.283; Ps i.35; ten powers at Ps ii.173, 176; cp. Vism 144 (where a kh. walks through the air).
Khīṇapunabbhava one in whom the conditions of another existence have been destroyed (=khīṇāsava) Sn 514, 656.
Khīṇabīja one who is without the seed (of renewed existence) (=prec.) Sn 235 (=ucchinna-bīja KhA 194).
Khīṇamaccha without fish (of a lake) Dh 155.
Khīṇavyappatha without the way of (evil) speech (vyapp˚=vācāya patho; expl. SnA 204 as na pharusavāco) Sn 158.
Khīṇasota with the stream gone, i.e. without water, in macche appodake kh˚ Sn 777.
(PED)
No comments:
Post a Comment