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MA 198 ariya savaka "noble disciple" loses their "nobility" (enlightenment is reversible? really?) || MN 125



✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya‍ 2.10

a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha). See Ariya‍ 3
sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, but not an arahant yet. See Ariya‍ 4


MN 125 All you need to become enlightened is shave your head and ordain as a buddhist monk

If we accept most translators' interpretation of "noble disciple", then we have the result that a householder who decides to become monk, they immediately become enlightened, guaranteed arahantship in 7 lifetimes or less. You don't even have to do any work, just shave your head and ordain and you magically become enlightened already.


Taṃ dhammaṃ suṇāti gahapati vā gahapatiputto vā aƱƱatarasmiṃ vā kule paccājāto.
A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan.
So taṃ dhammaṃ sutvā tathāgate saddhaṃ paṭilabhati.
They gain faith in the Realized One,
So tena saddhāpaṭilābhena samannāgato iti paṭisañcikkhati:
and reflect:
‘sambādho gharāvāso rajāpatho, abbhokāso pabbajjā.
‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open.
Nayidaṃ sukaraṃ agāraṃ ajjhāvasatā ekantaparipuṇṇaṃ ekantaparisuddhaṃ saį¹…khalikhitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ carituṃ.
It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell.
YannÅ«nāhaṃ kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajeyyan’ti.
Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’

125.3.1 - (renounce, shave head, work on sīla)


So aparena samayena appaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā bhogakkhandhaṃ pahāya appaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya mahantaṃ vā ñātiparivaṭṭaṃ pahāya kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajati.
After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness.
Ettāvatā kho, aggivessana, ariyasāvako abbhokāsagato hoti.
And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open,
Etthagedhā hi, aggivessana, devamanussā yadidaṃ—paƱca kāmaguṇā.
for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation.



MA 198 is a close parallel to MN 125, with the same "noble disciple" absurdity (shave your head and become an arahant immediately) 




MA 198 also has an even more ridiculous problem not in MN 125, an arahant can lose their enlightenment!

4šŸ‘‘☸ → MA → MA 198 čŖæå¾”åœ°ē¶“    || MN 125 


"tamed" = arahantship, or somewhere on the path of irreversible enlightenment

å¦‚ę˜Æ,é˜æå„‡čˆé‚£!č‹„ č–å¼Ÿå­éšØå¦‚ä¾†čƒ½å Ŗåæč€…,å½¼ę–¼ēˆ¾ę™‚čŖæå¾”、 å–„čŖæå¾”,å¾—äøŠčŖæå¾”、ęœ€äøŠčŖæå¾”,å¾—äøŠęÆ,ęœ€äøŠ 息,é™¤č«øę›²ęƒ”、ꁐꀖ、ę„šē™”åŠč«›č«‚,清淨止唵, ē„”åž¢ē„”ē©¢,åÆå‘¼åÆč«‹,åÆę•¬åÆé‡,åÆ¦åÆä¾› 養,ē‚ŗäø€åˆ‡å¤©äŗŗč‰Æē¦ē”°ä¹Ÿ。
Like this, Aciravata, when the noble disciple follows [the instructions of] the Tathāgata and is able to bear up [with all of this], at that time he is tamed, well tamed, has reached the higher taming, the supreme taming, has reached the higher peace, the supreme peace, has discarded all crookedness, fear, stupidity and deceitfulness, he has become pure, has settled the dust, is free from dirt, free from filth, fit to be praised, fit to be invited, fit to be revered, fit to be respected, truly fit for offerings, an excellent field of merit for all gods and men.


(In the  MN 125.5.2 , they link the "tamed" and "untamed" to a "bhikkhu" rather than "noble disciple" so it avoids this absurdity)




Conclusion

✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya‍ 2.10

ariya savaka = "disciple of the noble ones", who may or may not have some degree of enlightenment,
not "noble disciple", 
which is  "a confirmed enlightened noble one, at minimum a stream enterer."


Most translators, In English and Chinese, stubbornly continue to make this error, despite Thanissaro Bhikkhu pointing out this problem and widely publishing correct translations of ariya savaka for over 25 years.

I recently ran most of the Chinese Agama sutras through google translate into English, and guess what?
It translates ariya savaka wrongly because AI can only be as accurate as the source it's trained on.





Will translators fix their errors please?

And will the army of  ardent supporters of those translators give them a nudge to encourage them to do so?

Chinese and Pali source text for 'ariya savaka' has the same issue - grammatically ambiguous supporting both interpretations, 
but logic and coherence demands only one of those interpretations is valid and coherent in every reference.










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