MA 198 ariya savaka "noble disciple" loses their "nobility" (enlightenment is reversible? really?) || MN 125
✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya 2.10
a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha). See Ariya 3
sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, but not an arahant yet. See Ariya 4
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya 2.10
a-sekha = an arahant who no longer needs training of a trainee (sekha). See Ariya 3
sekha = a trainee who has attained at least stream entry, but not an arahant yet. See Ariya 4
MN 125 All you need to become enlightened is shave your head and ordain as a buddhist monk
If we accept most translators' interpretation of "noble disciple", then we have the result that a householder who decides to become monk, they immediately become enlightened, guaranteed arahantship in 7 lifetimes or less. You don't even have to do any work, just shave your head and ordain and you magically become enlightened already.
Taį¹ dhammaį¹ suį¹Äti gahapati vÄ gahapatiputto vÄ aƱƱatarasmiį¹ vÄ kule paccÄjÄto. | A householder hears that teaching, or a householder’s child, or someone reborn in some clan. |
So taį¹ dhammaį¹ sutvÄ tathÄgate saddhaį¹ paį¹ilabhati. | They gain faith in the Realized One, |
So tena saddhÄpaį¹ilÄbhena samannÄgato iti paį¹isaƱcikkhati: | and reflect: |
‘sambÄdho gharÄvÄso rajÄpatho, abbhokÄso pabbajjÄ. | ‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open. |
Nayidaį¹ sukaraį¹ agÄraį¹ ajjhÄvasatÄ ekantaparipuį¹į¹aį¹ ekantaparisuddhaį¹ saį¹
khalikhitaį¹ brahmacariyaį¹ carituį¹. | It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell. |
YannÅ«nÄhaį¹ kesamassuį¹ ohÄretvÄ kÄsÄyÄni vatthÄni acchÄdetvÄ agÄrasmÄ anagÄriyaį¹ pabbajeyyan’ti. | Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’ |
125.3.1 - (renounce, shave head, work on sīla)
So aparena samayena appaį¹ vÄ bhogakkhandhaį¹ pahÄya mahantaį¹ vÄ bhogakkhandhaį¹ pahÄya appaį¹ vÄ Ć±Ätiparivaį¹į¹aį¹ pahÄya mahantaį¹ vÄ Ć±Ätiparivaį¹į¹aį¹ pahÄya kesamassuį¹ ohÄretvÄ kÄsÄyÄni vatthÄni acchÄdetvÄ agÄrasmÄ anagÄriyaį¹ pabbajati. | After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness. |
EttÄvatÄ kho, aggivessana, ariyasÄvako abbhokÄsagato hoti. | And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open, |
EtthagedhÄ hi, aggivessana, devamanussÄ yadidaį¹—paƱca kÄmaguį¹Ä. | for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation. |
MA 198 is a close parallel to MN 125, with the same "noble disciple" absurdity (shave your head and become an arahant immediately)
å½¼ęčŖŖę³,å±
士å č,å±
士åčå·²,å¾äæ”å¦ä¾ęčŖŖę³。 | "A householder's son hears that Dharma taught by him. On hearing it, the householder's son gains confidence in the Dharma taught by the TathÄgata.19 |
(renounce, shave head, work on sīla)
å½¼å¾äæ” å·²,åé¤é¬é«®,čč¢č£č”£,č³äæ”、ęØ家、ē”家、åø é。 | Having gained confidence, he shaves of his beard and hair, puts on monastic robes and out of confidence leaves home, becomes homeless to train in the path. |
(simile: new monk has 5kg desire, just as elephant still desires pleasures of being wild in forest)
éæå„čé£!ē¾ęčå¼ååŗåØé²å°,ē¶ē éč±”,å¦ęÆéč±”č²Ŗę¬²ęØčč
,č¬åØęäø。 | "Aciravata, at that time the noble disciple comes out into the open, just like the king's forest elephant [was brought out into the open]. Just as the forest elephant has lust, desire, delight and attachment, namely for staying in the forest,20 |
MA 198 also has an even more ridiculous problem not in MN 125, an arahant can lose their enlightenment!
4š☸ → MA → MA 198 čŖæå¾”å°ē¶ || MN 125
"tamed" = arahantship, or somewhere on the path of irreversible enlightenment
å¦ęÆ,éæå„čé£!č„ čå¼åéØå¦ä¾č½å Ŗåæč
,å½¼ę¼ē¾ęčŖæå¾”、 åčŖæå¾”,å¾äøčŖæå¾”、ęäøčŖæå¾”,å¾äøęÆ,ęäø ęÆ,é¤č«øę²ę”、ęę、ęē”åč«č«,ęø
ę·Øę¢å”µ, ē”å¢ē”ē©¢,åÆå¼åÆč«,åÆę¬åÆé,åƦåÆä¾ é¤,ēŗäøå天äŗŗčÆē¦ē°ä¹。 | Like this, Aciravata, when the noble disciple follows [the instructions of] the TathÄgata and is able to bear up [with all of this], at that time he is tamed, well tamed, has reached the higher taming, the supreme taming, has reached the higher peace, the supreme peace, has discarded all crookedness, fear, stupidity and deceitfulness, he has become pure, has settled the dust, is free from dirt, free from filth, fit to be praised, fit to be invited, fit to be revered, fit to be respected, truly fit for offerings, an excellent field of merit for all gods and men. |
Yet here, the Buddha says a "noble disciple" can die "untamed" (unenlightened)
「éæå„čé£!å°éč±” äøčŖæå¾”ę»č
,čŖŖäøčŖæå¾”ę»,äø、čéč±”äøčŖæ å¾”ę»č
,čŖŖäøčŖæå¾”ę»。 | 31. "Aciravata, a young forest elephant who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed', [759a] a middle-aged ... an old elephant who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed'. |
éæå„čé£!å°čå¼å äøčŖæå¾”å½ēµč
,čŖŖäøčŖæå¾”å½ēµ,äø、ččå¼ åäøčŖæå¾”å½ēµč
,čŖŖäøčŖæå¾”å½ēµ。 | Aciravata, a young noble disciple who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed', a middle-aged ... an old noble disciple who dies untamed is reckoned to have 'died untamed'.33 |
éæå„č é£!å°éč±”åčŖæå¾”ę»č
,čŖŖåčŖæå¾”ę»,äø、č éč±”åčŖæę»č
,čŖŖåčŖæå¾”ę»。 | 32. "Aciravata, a young forest elephant who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed', a middle-aged ... an old elephant who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed'. |
éæå„čé£!å° čå¼ååčŖæå¾”å½ēµč
,čŖŖåčŖæå¾”å½ēµ,äø、č čå¼ååčŖæå¾”å½ēµč
,čŖŖåčŖæå¾”å½ēµ。」 | Aciravata, a young noble disciple who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed', a middle-aged ... an old noble disciple who dies well tamed is reckoned to have 'died well tamed'. |
(In the MN 125.5.2 , they link the "tamed" and "untamed" to a "bhikkhu" rather than "noble disciple" so it avoids this absurdity)
Conclusion
✅ariya-savaka = noble one’s disciple (might not be enlightened)
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya 2.10
⛔ariya-savaka ≠ noble disciple (enlightenment confirmed). Proof: Ariya 2.10
not "noble disciple",
which is "a confirmed enlightened noble one, at minimum a stream enterer."
Most translators, In English and Chinese, stubbornly continue to make this error, despite Thanissaro Bhikkhu pointing out this problem and widely publishing correct translations of ariya savaka for over 25 years.
I recently ran most of the Chinese Agama sutras through google translate into English, and guess what?
It translates ariya savaka wrongly because AI can only be as accurate as the source it's trained on.
Will translators fix their errors please?
And will the army of ardent supporters of those translators give them a nudge to encourage them to do so?
Chinese and Pali source text for 'ariya savaka' has the same issue - grammatically ambiguous supporting both interpretations,
but logic and coherence demands only one of those interpretations is valid and coherent in every reference.
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