AN 3.75 a noble one's disciple, IF(?) they are a stream enterer, can not be reborn in hell

AN 3.75 a noble-one's-disciple (ariya-sāvakassa) with experiential confidence (aveccappasāde) in the Buddha ... can not be reborn in animal realm, hell, or other unfavorable births.

avecca-p-pasāda

masc. perfect clarity; absolute faith; epithet of stream entry [avecca + pasāda] ✓

So what about the ariya savaka who DOESN'T have perfect experiential confidence in Buddha?

According to B.Bodhi and Sujato,

ariya-savaka is a "noble disciple", someone who is already a confirmed stream enterer or higher attainment.

Their translation of AN 3.75, effectively ends up saying,

An arahant, nonreturner, once returner, or stream enterer,

IF they have experiential confidence in the Buddha (epithet of someone who is at least a stream enterer),

can not be reborn in ... hell, bad realms.

Or a more simple example, to illustrate the absurd illogic of it,

A stream enterer, if he is a confirmed stream enterer, can not be reborn in hell.

By definition, a stream enterer is already a stream enterer, he can not lack perfect confidence in the Buddha, can not be reborn in hell.

Therefore ariya savaka is "a noble one's disciple" (who is not necessarily NOBLE themself)

not "confirmed noble disciple" as Sujato and B. Bodhi translate.

Contact them, let them know their error.

People have only been complaining about it for a few decades now.

Comments

Lucid24.org: What's new?

Link to lucid24.org home page : 4👑☸ Remember, you may have to click the refresh button on your web browser navigation bar at to get updated website. 2024 9-17 Lots of new stuff in the last 2 and a half years. Too many to list. Main one justifying new blog entry, is redesign of home page. Before, it was designed to please me, super dense with everything in one master control panel. I've redesigned it to be friendly to newbies and everyone really. Clear structure, more use of space. At someone's request, I added a lucid24.org google site search at top of home page. 2022 4-14 Major update to lucid24.org, easy navigation of suttas, quicklink: the ramifications 4-2 new feature lucid24.org sutta quick link 3-28 A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think 🔗📝notes related to Jhāna force and J.A.S.I. effect AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here? 3-13 Added to EBPedia J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy...

AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here?

What these 3 suttas have in common, AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111, is the very interesting feature of explicitly describing doing vipassana, while one is in the jhāna and the first 3 formless attainments. LBT (late buddhist text) apologists, as well as Sujato, Brahm, claim that the suttas describe a jhāna where one enters a disembodied, frozen state, where vipassana is impossible until one emerges from that 'jhāna'. Since Sujato translated all the suttas, let's take a look at what he translated, and how it supports his interpretation of 'jhāna'. AN 9.36: Jhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato (suttacentral.net) ‘The first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements.’ ‘Paṭhamampāhaṁ, bhikkhave, jhānaṁ nissāya āsavānaṁ khayaṁ vadāmī’ti, iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? Take a mendicant who, q uite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskill...

Pāḷi and Sanskrit definition of Viveka

'Viveka', Sanskrit dictionary Primary meaning is ‘discrimination’. Other meanings: (1) true knowledge, (2) discretion, (3) right judgement, (4) the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties’. Wikipedia (sanskrit dictionary entry 'viveka') Viveka (Sanskrit: विवेक, romanized: viveka) is a Sanskrit and Pali term translated into English as discernment or discrimination.[1] According to Rao and Paranjpe, viveka can be explained more fully as: Sense of discrimination; wisdom; discrimination between the real and the unreal, between the self and the non-self, between the permanent and the impermanent; discriminative inquiry; right intuitive discrimination; ever present discrimination between the transient and the permanent.[2]: 348 The Vivekachudamani is an eighth-century Sanskrit poem in dialogue form that addresses the development of viveka. Within the Vedanta tradition, there is also a concept of vichara which is one t...

notes on the Dhamma

Search This Blog