Skip to main content

MN 21 what kind of desire and thoughts of lay life are supposed to be abandoned?

 





MN 21 Kakacū-’pama: Saw simile

pic for POJ MN 21 – MN 21 Kakacū-’pama: Saw simile
MN 21.1 – (monk Phagguna mixing with nuns too often)
    MN 21.1.5 (if nuns criticized → give up desire and thoughts of lay life)
    MN 21.1.6 – (if nuns criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
    MN 21.1.7(if nuns assaulted → give up desire and thoughts of lay life)
    MN 21.1.8 – (if nuns assaulted → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
    MN 21.1.9 (if you are criticized → give up desire and thoughts of lay life)
    MN 21.1.10 – (if you are criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
    MN 21.1.11(if you are assaulted → give up desire and thoughts of lay life)
    MN 21.1.12 – (if you are assaulted → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
MN 21.2 – (Buddha used to be satisfied with monks)
    MN 21.2.1 – (eat in one session per day for good health)
    MN 21.2.2 – (Buddha just prompted their rememberfulness, didn’t need to keep reminding them)
        MN 21.2.2.1 – (rememberfulness ↔ simile of expert chariot driver)
    MN 21.2.3 – (do right effort, give up unskillful and develop skillful)
        MN 21.2.3.1 – (right effort ↔ simile of removing weeds to nurture sal grove)
MN 21.3 - (story of maid testing housewife with reputation of sweet temper)
    MN 21.3.2 – (test 1: maid gets up later than normal → housewife has angry words)
    MN 21.3.3 – (test 2: maid gets up even later → housewife assaults maid)
    MN 21.3.4 – (housewife getṣ new reputation of being fierce and foul tempered)
MN 21.4 – (sweet tempered monk ↔ fierce angry housewife)
    MN 21.4.1 – (monk not considered easy to admonish if they have ulterior motive for food, requisites)
    MN 21.4.2 – (monk considered easy to admonish if their motive is respect for The Dharma)
    MN 21.4.5 - (5 types of critical speech: timely, true, gentle, beneficial, metta – or 5 opposites)
        MN 21.4.5.7 – (if monk is criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.4.5.8 – (then pervade critic with mind of metta)
        MN 21.4.5.9 – (using that critic as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.5 - (simile of bucket collecting all of earth)
    MN 21.5.5 - (5 types of critical speech: timely, true, gentle, beneficial, metta – or 5 opposites)
        MN 21.5.5.7 – (if monk is criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.5.5.8 – (then pervade critic with mind of metta)
        MN 21.5.5.9 – (using that critic as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.6 - (simile of painting the sky)
    MN 21.6.5 - (5 types of critical speech: timely, true, gentle, beneficial, metta – or 5 opposites)
        MN 21.6.5.7 – (if monk is criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.6.5.8 – (then pervade critic with mind of metta)
        MN 21.6.5.9 – (using that critic as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.7 - (simile of torching ganges river)
    MN 21.7.5 - (5 types of critical speech: timely, true, gentle, beneficial, metta – or 5 opposites)
        MN 21.7.5.7 – (if monk is criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.7.5.8 – (then pervade critic with mind of metta)
        MN 21.7.5.9 – (using that critic as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.8 - (simile of catskin bag)
    MN 21.8.5 - (5 types of critical speech: timely, true, gentle, beneficial, metta – or 5 opposites)
        MN 21.8.5.7 – (if monk is criticized → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.8.5.8 – (then pervade critic with mind of metta)
        MN 21.8.5.9 – (using that critic as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.9 - (simile of saw – even if killer bandits saw off your limbs)
    MN 21.9.5 – (even having a malevolent thought in reaction is not following Buddha’s teaching)
        MN 21.9.5.7 – (if monk is assaulted or maimed → unaffected, no bad speech, karuṇa + metta, no secret hate)
        MN 21.9.5.8 – (then pervade killer with mind of metta)
        MN 21.9.5.9 – (using that killer as basis, pervade entire world with metta via STED 4bv formula)
MN 21.10 – (conclusion: you should frequently reflect on simile of saw) 


what kind of thoughts?


In MN 21, for all 4 permutations of
monks criticize nuns
monks physically assault nuns
monks criticize you (phagguna the monk)
monks physically assault you,

the first instruction says to give up desire and thoughts of lay life.
What does that mean?
I saw in Sujato's footnotes
that phagguna disrobed in SN 12

Was this instruction to only phagguna for some specific issue with him constantly wanting to disrobe?
I had always assumed these were general instructions for all monastics (to give up desire and thoughts of lay life),
but I can't figure out what it means in these 4 permutations.
If someone is verbally or physically assaulting you,
what kind of lay life thoughts would you be thinking?
"I'd sure like to eat some delicious chocolate cake right now instead of getting criticized and beaten to death?"
"Buddhist monks sure are mean, I think I should disrobe?"
"Those monks are mean to the nuns, I want to disrobe with one of the nuns and marry her?"
"if I disrobe, I will no longer be bound by vinaya rules and I can retaliate to these attacks with physical force?"


Tasmātiha, phagguna, tava cepi koci sammukhā tāsaṃ bhikkhunīnaṃ pāṇinā pahāraṃ dadeyya, leḍḍunā pahāraṃ dadeyya, daṇḍena pahāraṃ dadeyya, satthena pahāraṃ dadeyya. Tatrāpi tvaṃ, phagguna, ye gehasitā chandā ye gehasitā vitakkā te pajaheyyāsi.
So even if someone strikes those nuns with fists, stones, rods, and swords in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life.



Comments

Popular posts from this blog

Advice to younger meditators on jhāna, sex, porn, masturbation

Someone asked: Is porn considered harmful sexual.activity? I don't have a sex life because I don't have a partner and I don't wish to engage in casual sex so I use porn to quench the biological urge to orgasm. I can't see that's it's harmful because nobody is being forced into it. The actors are all paid well and claim to enjoy it etc. The only harm I can see is that it's so accessible these days on smart devices and so children may access it but I believe that this is the parents responsibility to not allow unsupervised use of devices etc. Views? Frankk response: In another thread, you asked about pleasant sensations and jhāna.  I'm guessing you're young, so here's some important advice you won't get from suttas   if you're serious about jhāna.  (since monastics are already celibate by rule)   If you want to attain stable and higher jhānas,   celibacy and noble silence to the best of your ability are the feedstock and prerequiste to tha...

Lucid24.org: What's new?

Link to lucid24.org home page :    4👑☸   Remember, you may have to click the refresh button on your web browser navigation bar at to get updated website. 2024 9-17 Lots of new stuff in the last 2 and a half years.  Too many to list. Main one justifying new blog entry, is redesign of home page. Before, it was designed to please me, super dense with everything in one master control panel. I've redesigned it to be friendly to newbies and everyone really. Clear structure, more use of space.  At someone's request, I added a lucid24.org google site search at top of home page. 2022 4-14 Major update to lucid24.org, easy navigation of suttas, quicklink: the ramifications 4-2 new feature lucid24.org sutta quick link 3-28 A new translation of SN 38.16, and first jhāna is a lot easier than you think 🔗📝notes related to Jhāna force and J.A.S.I. effect AN 9.36, MN 64, MN 111: How does Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's "Jhāna" work here? 3-13 Added to EBPedia J.A.S.I. ('Jazzy...

SN 48.40 Ven. Thanissaro comments on Ven. Sunyo's analysis

This was Ven. Sunyo's analysis of SN 48.40: https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/05/exciting-news-honest-ebt-scholars-like.html And here is Ven. Thanissaro's response to that analysis: I think there’s a better way to tackle the issue of SN 48:40 than by appealing to the oldest layers of commentarial literature. That way is to point out that SN 48:40, as we have it, doesn’t pass the test in DN 16 for determining what’s genuine Dhamma and what’s not. There the standard is, not the authority of the person who’s claiming to report the Buddha’s teachings, but whether the teachings he’s reporting are actually in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma that you know. So the simple fact that those who have passed the Buddha’s teachings down to us say that a particular passage is what the Buddha actually taught is not sufficient grounds for accepting it. In the case of the jhānas—the point at issue here— we have to take as our guide the standard formula for the jhānas, a...