AN 3.60, DN 28: vitakka and vicara when doing mind reading

AN 3.60 and DN 28 (contains same passage as AN 3.60) is one of the most decisive suttas in the EBT showing that vitakka and vicara have to mean to same thing in first (and second) jhana, as outside. Just as MN 44 and MN 117 equate V&V as the vaci-sankhara, the vocalization-co-activities, in telepathic mind reading this must mean you are reading coherent mental talk, inner dialogue, the words of the inner voice mentally reciting the words before they're spoken out loud vocally.

If Sujato's interpretation of V&V were correct, then the mind reading would not be able to read anything, because there are no unspoken words of a Vism. 'jhana' meditator with a frozen mind glued to a visual kasina or breath nimitta.
Every legitimate and credible English translator (to my knowledge) using EBT as the basis use some variation of 'thinking & evaluation'.

B. Sujato is one of the only exceptions.
This is a detailed audit, highlighting all instances of 'vitakka' to show the fallacy of B. Sujato's translation and interpretation, spelling it out in detail and walking you through the logical fallacy step by step.

3.60 eng. trans. based on correct understanding of EBT

(name of brahman)

(2a. Miracle of telepathy, by sign or vision)


♦ “katamañca, brāhmaṇa, ādesanā-pāṭihāriyaṃ?	"And what is the telepathy-miracle?
idha, brāhmaṇa, ekacco nimittena ādisati —	There is the case where a certain person reads [another person' thoughts] by means of a sign (vision), [saying,]
‘evampi te mano,	'Such is your thinking,
itthampi te mano,	here is where your thinking is,
itipi te cittan’ti.	thus is your mind.'
so bahuṃ cepi ādisati	And however much he may read,
tatheva taṃ hoti,	that's exactly how it is,
no aññathā.	and not otherwise.

(2b. Telepathy by talking to external beings)


♦ “idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco	"Then there is the case where a certain person reads [another person's thoughts],
na heva kho nimittena ādisati,	not by means of a sign or vision,
api ca kho manussānaṃ vā a-manussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati —	but by hearing the voice of human beings, non-human beings, or devas, [saying,]
‘evampi te mano,	'Such is your thinking,
itthampi te mano,	here is where your thinking is,
itipi te cittan’ti.	thus is your mind.'
so bahuṃ cepi ādisati	And however much he may read,
tatheva taṃ hoti,	that's exactly how it is,
no aññathā.	and not otherwise.

(2c. telepathy by directly “hearing” vitakka and vicara)


♦ “idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco	"Then there is the case where a certain person reads [another person's thoughts],
na heva kho nimittena ādisati	not by means of a sign or vision;
napi manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati,	not by hearing the voice of human beings, non-human beings, or devas;
api ca kho vitakkayato vicārayato	but by hearing the sound of the directed thought & evaluation
vitakka-vip-phāra-saddaṃ sutvā ādisati —	of a person thinking directed thoughts and evaluating, [saying,]
‘evampi te mano,	'Such is your thinking,
itthampi te mano,	here is where your thinking is,
itipi te cittan’ti.	thus is your mind.'
so bahuṃ cepi ādisati	And however much he may read,
tatheva taṃ hoti,	that's exactly how it is,
no aññathā.	and not otherwise.

(2d. Telepathy by 6ab #3, abhiñña #3, mind encompass mind)


♦ “idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco	"Then there is the case where a certain person reads [another person's thoughts],
na heva kho nimittena ādisati,	not by means of a sign or vision;
napi manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati,	not by hearing the voice of human beings, non-human beings, or devas;
napi vitakkayato vicārayato	not by hearing the sound of the directed thought & evaluation
vitakka-vip-phāra-saddaṃ sutvā ādisati,	of a person thinking directed thoughts and evaluating;
api ca kho a-vitakkaṃ a-vicāraṃ samādhiṃ samāpannassa	but by mind-reading (a being in the) no-thinking no-evaluation samādhi
cetasā ceto paricca pajānāti —	and encompassing the awareness [of the other] with his own awareness, he discerns,
‘yathā imassa bhoto mano-saṅkhārā paṇihitā	'Given the way the mental-fabrications of this venerable person are inclined,
imassa cittassa anantarā amuṃ nāma vitakkaṃ vitakkessatī’ti.	the directed thoughts of his mind will immediately think about this.'
so bahuṃ cepi ādisati	And however much he may read,
tatheva taṃ hoti,	that's exactly how it is,
no aññathā.	and not otherwise.

idaṃ vuccati, brāhmaṇa, ādesanā-pāṭihāriyaṃ.	"This, brahman, is the telepathy-miracle.

(3. Miracle of instruction)


♦ “katamañca, brāhmaṇa, anu-sāsanī-pāṭihāriyaṃ?	"And what is (the) instructional-miracle?
idha, brāhmaṇa, ekacco evam-anu-sāsati —	There is the case where a certain person gives instruction in this way:
‘evaṃ vitakketha,	'Direct your thought in this way,
mā evaṃ vitakkayittha;	don't direct (your) thought (in that way).
evaṃ manasi karotha,	in-this-way pay attention,
mā evaṃ manas-ākattha;	** in-this-way {don't}-pay-attention,
idaṃ pajahatha,	Let go of this,
idaṃ upasampajja viharathā’ti.	enter and remain in that.'
idaṃ vuccati, brāhmaṇa, anu-sāsanī-pāṭihāriyaṃ.	This is called, ***, (the) instructional-miracle.

B. Sujato's erroneous translation and interpretation of same passage

https://suttacentral.net/an3.60/en/sujato

and what is the demonstration of revealing?

Katamañca, brāhmaṇa, ādesanāpāṭihāriyaṃ?

In one case, someone reveals by means of a sign:

Idha, brāhmaṇa, ekacco nimittena ādisati:

‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’

‘evampi te mano, itthampi te mano, itipi te cittan’ti.

And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

So bahuñcepi ādisati tatheva taṃ hoti, no aññathā.

In another case, someone reveals after hearing it from humans or non-humans or deities:

Idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco na heva kho nimittena ādisati, api ca kho manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati:

‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’

‘evampi te mano, itthampi te mano, itipi te cittan’ti.

And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

So bahuñcepi ādisati tatheva taṃ hoti, no aññathā.

No problem with the V&V translation in the following paragraph, but it contradicts B. Sujato's translation/interpretation of V&V as vaci-sankhra in MN 44!

In another case, someone reveals by hearing the sound of thought spreading as someone thinks and considers:

Idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco na heva kho nimittena ādisati napi manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā

saddaṃ sutvā ādisati, api ca kho vitakkayato vicārayato vitakkavipphārasaddaṃ sutvā ādisati:

‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’

‘evampi te mano, itthampi te mano, itipi te cittan’ti.

And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

So bahuñcepi ādisati tatheva taṃ hoti, no aññathā.

Next, we have a big problem!

Actually, there's two big problems here.

#1 B. Sujato claims he had to translate 'vitakka' of first and second jhana as 'placing the mind...' because the Buddha did not have a word that means something subverbal, the intention behind a 'thought'. Here, the Buddha shows he does indeed have a word (actually he has many), in this sutta, it's called 'mano-sankhara'.

#2 And the big problem is, if the mind reader is trying to read the mind of this person in second jhana, there would be nothing to read if he was in B. Sujato's version of second jhana!

Sujato and Ajahn Brahm's redefined jhana, your mind is frozen and glued to a visual nimitta or kasina. It can't think, it can't perform telelpathy, it can't even mentally think, "Am I in second jhana?", until after they emerge from that redefined samadhi.

So the mind reader has nothing 'verbal' to read! Reading a subverbal intention of 'placing the mind on a visual kasina' does not produce any kind of coherent 'vitakka'/'thought' that it will become after that 2nd jhana meditator emerges! If 'jhana' were indeed how Vism. and Ajahn Brahm redefine it, this would be the place for the Buddha to say, "But the mind reader can't find any thoughts to read, because in jhana there can be no thought." Instead, in the pali, the Buddha says the mind reader picks up on subverbal mental activity before it has been formed into words (vitakka) that can be vocalized (vaci-sankhara), meaning there is some substantial 'vitakka' basis there.

This is huge logical fallacy.

In another case, someone comprehends the mind of a person who has attained the immersion that’s free of placing the mind and keeping it connected. They understand:

Idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco na heva kho nimittena ādisati, napi manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati, napi vitakkayato vicārayato vitakkavipphārasaddaṃ sutvā ādisati, api ca kho avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhiṃ samāpannassa cetasā ceto paricca pajānāti:

‘Judging by the way this person’s intentions are directed, immediately after this mind state, they’ll think this thought.’

‘yathā imassa bhoto manosaṅkhārā paṇihitā imassa cittassa anantarā amuṃ nāma vitakkaṃ vitakkessatī’ti.

And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

So bahuñcepi ādisati tatheva taṃ hoti, no aññathā.

This is called the demonstration of revealing.

Idaṃ vuccati, brāhmaṇa, ādesanāpāṭihāriyaṃ.

The last part here, shows that vitakka and vicara are vaci-sankhara, vocalization co-activities, the thoughts you think before you say them out loud. It needs to mean the same as the V&V from the preceding paragraph, which it does not.

And what is a demonstration of instruction?

Katamañca, brāhmaṇa, anusāsanīpāṭihāriyaṃ?

It’s when someone instructs others like this:

Idha, brāhmaṇa, ekacco evamanusāsati:

‘Think like this, not like that. Focus your mind like this, not like that. Give up this, and live having achieved that.’

‘evaṃ vitakketha, mā evaṃ vitakkayittha; evaṃ manasi karotha, mā evaṃ manasākattha; idaṃ pajahatha, idaṃ upasampajja viharathā’ti.

This is called a demonstration of instruction.

Idaṃ vuccati, brāhmaṇa, anusāsanīpāṭihāriyaṃ.

SN 48.40 Ven. Thanissaro comments on Ven. Sunyo's analysis

This was Ven. Sunyo's analysis of SN 48.40: https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2024/05/exciting-news-honest-ebt-scholars-like.html And here is Ven. Thanissaro's response to that analysis: I think there’s a better way to tackle the issue of SN 48:40 than by appealing to the oldest layers of commentarial literature. That way is to point out that SN 48:40, as we have it, doesn’t pass the test in DN 16 for determining what’s genuine Dhamma and what’s not. There the standard is, not the authority of the person who’s claiming to report the Buddha’s teachings, but whether the teachings he’s reporting are actually in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma that you know. So the simple fact that those who have passed the Buddha’s teachings down to us say that a particular passage is what the Buddha actually taught is not sufficient grounds for accepting it. In the case of the jhānas—the point at issue here— we have to take as our guide the standard formula for the jhānas, a

notes on the Dhamma

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