Tuesday, September 28, 2021

DA 20 jhana similes, bodily pleasure, or "personal experience of pleasure"?







Before we dive into DA 20, here is a fictional story to illustrate the importance of distinguishing carefully between the terms  mind, body, and metaphorical use of 'personal' which vaguely encompasses both body and mind.

Charles and Frank were eyewitnesses of an altercation between Alexander and Peggy Sue.

They went to the police to give their report:


Charles went first:

"Alexander made a personal attack against Peggy Sue that was a slap in the face and  left scars. Peggy Sue felt that pain deeply and personally."


The Police are thinking, "ok, sounds like we need to get a restraining order on Alexander, press charges against him for assault and battery."



Then Frank gave his eyewitness account:

"Alexander and Peggy Sue got in a really heated debate over a controversial religious topic. Peggy Sue was a slick talker, and her case sounded compelling, at first. But then Alexander just unleashed a tsunami of incontrovertible evidence from the thousands of suttas that left Peggy Sue speechless and defenseless. Alexander waited for Sue to issue an apology or mount a defense, but when none was forthcoming, Alex started to question Sue's ethical standards in an increasingly unfriendly tone. At this point Sue's face turned red and she started crying. You would have thought Alex literally slapped her in the face. But it was just Sue's own conscience that triggered deep mental pain which in turn directly caused physical pain manifested in crying and a literal red face."





After cross examining Charles and Frank some more, 

the Police said, "sorry Charlie, Alex may have been impolite, but we can't press any charges. Maybe Sue should consult with a more senior clergyman *f1  and ask them to resolve the dispute. And Charlie, personally I think you should be more clear in making a distinction between mental and physical attacks."


*f1: Ajahn Chah doesn't agree with Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhana (Ajahn Chah is Ajahn Brahm's teacher, B. Sujato follows a model of redefined jhana similar to Ajahn Brahm)


 



English is from google translating chinese source. We'll see how well google does distinguishing mind and body in the jhanas, then compare with Charles Patton translation.


 

Charles Patton translation of same passage from chinese to english

https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama/dirgha/DA_20.html

Meditative Attainments


91.

 “They diligently detach themselves from desires and bad and unskillful things.

 Accompanied with perception and contemplation, their seclusion gives rise to joy and happiness, and they enter the first dhyāna.

 They soak themselves in joy and happiness so that it’s everywhere and overflowing.

 No part of them isn’t filled with it.



92.

 “It’s like someone skilled in filling bath containers with a variety of herbs.

 They soak it in water, and it becomes wet both inside and out.

 No part of it isn’t filled with water.

 A monk thus enters the first dhyāna.

 He’s thoroughly joyous and happy.

 No part of him  isn’t filled with it.



93.

 “Thus, student, this is the start of the direct attainment of personal happiness.

 Why is that?

 These things come from diligence, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place.



94.

 “They then give rise to faith, focused attention, and unified mind by detaching from perception and contemplation.

 Without perception or contemplation, their concentration gives rise to joy and happiness, and they enter the second dhyāna.

 They soak themselves in unified mind, joy, and happiness so that it’s everywhere and overflowing.

 No part of them isn’t filled with it.



95.

 “It’s like cool water that wells up from a spring on a mountain top.

 It doesn’t come from an outside source.

 Instead, clear water comes out of this pool, which returns, sinks, and becomes soaked.

 No part of it isn’t pervaded with the water.

 Student, a monk thus enters the second dhyāna, and concentration gives rise to joy and happiness.

 No part of him isn’t filled with it.

 This is the second direct attainment of personal happiness.



96.

 “They detach from that joy and its abode.

 Being equanimous, mindful, and undisturbed, they personally experience the happiness that’s taught by noble people.

 Giving rise to equanimity, mindfulness, and happiness, they enter the third dhyāna.

 They aren’t joyous, but they’re soaked with happiness so that it’s everywhere and overflowing.

 No part of him isn’t filled with it.



97.

 “It’s like blue lotus, red lotus, white lily, and white lotus flowers.

 When they first emerge from the mud but haven’t emerged from the water yet, their roots, stems, branches, and leaves are soaked by the water.

 No part of them isn’t covered by it.



98.

 “Student, a monk thus enters the third dhyāna.

 Free of joy and abiding in happiness, they soak themselves with it.

 No part of them isn’t covered by it.

 This is the third direct attainment of personal happiness.



99.

 “They detach from joy and happiness, and their previous sorrow and delight cease.

 Without pain or pleasure, their equanimity and mindfulness are purified, and they enter the fourth dhyāna.

 In body and mind, their purity is full and overflowing.

 No part of them isn’t covered by it.



100.

 “It’s like when a person bathes and washes themselves.

 They then put on fresh, white cloth to cover their body and make themselves pure.

 101 “Student, a monk thus enters the fourth dhyāna.

 His mental purity fills up his body.

 No part of him isn’t covered by it.

 Again, his mind has no increase or decrease when he enters the fourth dhyāna, and it’s motionless.

 He stands unmoved, without like or dislike.



101.

 “It’s like a secret room that’s plastered inside and out, and the door is tightly shut.

 There isn’t any wind or dust, so a lamp burning inside isn’t disturbed by anything.

 The flame of this lamp is peaceful and unmoving.



102.

 “Student, a monk thus enters the fourth dhyāna.

 Their mind has no increase or decrease, and it’s motionless.

 They stand unmoved, without like or dislike.

 This is the fourth direct attainment of personal happiness.

 Why is that?

 These things come from diligence, not being negligent, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place.


The Five Excellent Attainments


103.

 “They attain a concentrated mind that’s pure, undefiled, gentle, and disciplined.

 They stand unmoved, conjuring themselves or someone else in their mind with all its limbs and organs without flaw.

 They then contemplate this, ‘This body’s form made of the four elements has created that body.

 This body is one thing, and that body is another.

 The thought arose from this body to create that body with all its limbs and organs without flaw.


104.

 “It’s like someone who draws a sword from its scabbard and thinks, ‘The scabbard is one thing, and the sword is another, but the sword came from the scabbard.


105.

 “It’s also like someone who spins hemp [threads] to make rope and thinks, ‘The hemp is one thing, and the rope is another, but the rope came from the hemp.


106.

 “It’s also like someone who takes a snake out of a basket and thinks, ‘The basket is one thing, and the snake is another, but the snake came from the basket.


107.

 “It’s also like someone who takes a robe out of a hamper and thinks, ‘The hamper is one thing, and the robe is another, but the robe came from the hamper.


108.

 “Student, a monk is likewise.

 This is the first excellent attainment.

 Why is that?

 These things come from diligence, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place.



109.

 “After their mind is concentrated, pure, undefiled, gentle, and disciplined, they stand unmoved.

 They create their own or someone else’s body that’s made of the four elements in their mind, which has all its limbs and organs [without flaw].

 They then contemplate this: ‘This body is made of the four elements, and that body has come from conjuration.

 This body is one thing, and that body is another.

 That created body has this mind residing in this body as its supporting basis.


110.

 “It’s like beryl or maṇi gems that are polished, very bright, pure, and undefiled.

 Whether they are blue, yellow, or red, someone with eyes holding them in their hand can see that when they’re threaded together the gems are one thing, and the thread is another.

 Still, the thread supports the gems and goes from gem to gem.



111.

 “Student, a monk contemplates mind as the supporting basis of this body.

 It goes to that created body in the same way.

 This is the monk’s second excellent attainment.

 Why is that?

 These things come from diligence, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place.



Analysis and Conclusion 

(later...)



Forum discussion


Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k » 

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:49 amIt looks like a very close parallel with the type of dhyāna pericope found in the Arthaviniścayasūtra, which likely (i.e. definitely) has further parallels in the Pāli Canon, given that it is such a plain dhyāna pericope. Given that the Chinese matches so closely the Prākrit, C. Patton's argument would be based on the Indic usage of kāyena, and not the Chinese usage of 身, possibly. So basically, if my thinking is correct, the justification for reading "personally" would be based on the fact that the term translates "kāyena."...
I thought CPatton was translating based on chinese 身, and not on sanskrit kaya. He is even still debating whether to translate every jhana passage differently according to how those chinese translators did.

But let's say he was translating (from chinese) attempting to match indic "kāyena.", which is what I would do.
Pali third jhana and Arthaviniścayasūtra has, "sukham ca kayena patisamvedeti".
Pali and sanskrit grammar there by default is qualifying sukha as bodily.
That's why pretty much everyone in history that I'm aware of translate third jhana (pali and chinese agama) the same way as bodily pleasure, aside from Sujato and CPatton.

As far as I can tell, chinese Agama 3rd jhana with simile, such as DA 20,
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... re-or.html


is going to have the same problem as DN 2 if you try to make kaya "personal" (rather than physical)

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -rupa.html

DN 2 shares the same interesting feature of DA 20 where instead of the usual 6 higher knowledges, it adds 2 more special knowledges that don't appear in any other pali suttas (outside of DN). Why? Because those passages follow right after imperturbable 4th jhana (which follows 3rd jhana), so the early sutta reciters/preservers were deliberately glossing the terms 'rupa' and 'kaya' to unequivocally designate them as 4 element anatomical body and differentiate from mind. (to show consistent usage all the way through from 3rd to 4th jhana to the 2 special knowledges)

And as Asahi pointed on in his posts on the thread, CPatton's translation is inconsistent with kaya身 in the jhana similes, suddenly switching from physical to metaphorical "personal". I pointed out the same glaring inconsistency with Sujato and DN 2 in detailed audits.

Note to @waryoffolly, even in those agama passages where the jhana similes are not explicitly called jhanas, it's going to have the same jarring inconsistency as DN 2 and DA 20 were "kaya" in 3rd jhana "kaya sukha" suddenly goes from being "personal" to a physical kaya身 in the similes.

Also notice CPatton in DA 20
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... re-or.html
in first 3 jhanas, it looks like he turns kaya身 into "personal" even for the first 3 similes,
but then in 4th jhana he suddenly jumps back into physical body.
Again, I don't know chinese, but it sure looks like DA 20 is doing exactly the same thing as DN 2 in using kaya to specifically contrast physical from mental, and chaos ensues when you start arbitrarily jumping back and forth between physical and "personal".



2 comments:

  1. There's a translation by BDK of the Dirgha Agama, but it seems to be not a great translation. Here's the link : https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-canonical-book-of-the-buddhas-lengthy-discourses-vol-ii/

    ReplyDelete